Down syndrome

[kage_ar]

Of course your grandma was annoyed, you didn’t answer her question.

For us (atheists), the hope that you spoke about is totally irrelevant. That’s why. No offense intended, just to maybe help you understand where your grandma was coming from and her concerns, right?

What a sad life, with no hope of heaven.

 

[PennitentMan]

What a sad life, with no hope of heaven.

Now, what is that comment doing on a Downs Syndrome thread? Are you just trolling?

 

[kage_ar]

Now, what is that comment doing on a Downs Syndrome thread? Are you just trolling?

You are the one who said that athiests do not have that hope for downs kids, I simply responded to your statement. I cannot imagine having no hope of heaven for my child.

 

[PennitentMan]

You are the one who said that athiests do not have that hope for downs kids, I simply responded to your statement. I cannot imagine having no hope of heaven for my child.

It’s not sad or depressing, it’s just irrelevant. There is no heaven, so why even spend time on the question of whether we’ll end up there? And no, that’s not sad, it’s only sad from your perspective. It’s quiet liberating and I haven’t felt sad about stuff like that for one moment since I decided to leave the church.
Just to give you insight into the other side

 

[monicatholic]

penitent man,

i continued to my grandmother, “naomi will always have down syndrome. why should i hope that were not so?”

i don’t see down syndrome as a negative thing so why should i want more hope for her?

penitent man, i hope you are able to articulate something more to your children than, “you live, you die, you’re worm food.” because if you can’t, what difference could it possible make that your child with down syndrome made you better people/ made you love more/ made you learn about giving of yourself???

what difference could any of it make?

but i know your posts well enough to know your hopelessness is a treasure you hold dear. i would fail at trying to talk you out of that. i won’t try.

 

[PennitentMan]

penitent man,

i continued to my grandmother, “naomi will always have down syndrome. why should i hope that were not so?”

i don’t see down syndrome as a negative thing so why should i want more hope for her?

penitent man, i hope you are able to articulate something more to your children than, “you live, you die, you’re worm food.” because if you can’t, what difference could it possible make that your child with down syndrome made you better people/ made you love more/ made you learn about giving of yourself???
what difference could any of it make?

You don’t have to be a Christian to learn about giving from yourself. I give of myself out of love every time my child needs me. I could roll over at 3 am and let me wife handle the kids. I let her sleep and tend to their needs.
Of course you learn to give of yourself. You do it out of love. You show them you love them by caring for them in their time of need. You give of yourself every time you make a sacrifice for them. Your time, energy, money, everything.
We all live for our children, we work to sustain them and to give them the best they deserve. We sacrifice time and money to get them the things they need and want above our own needs and desires.
We give of ourselves everyday for our children’s sake…and those with special needs, even more so than others, because they provoke more emotion, they require more effort, energy and most certainly more money….
I don’t understand what you mean in the above really…it kinda sounds to me like you are trying to say that because I’m an Atheist I don’t give of myself, or I don’t learn from giving from myself to my kids. That cannot be further from the truth.
Jesus doesn’t make me do that, I make me do that, out of love for them.

The cold fact is that you are right in your phrasing up there. We live, we die, we are worm food…but it’s what we do with the spaces in between that counts. Life is precious because we only have one. We must make the most of it. I will teach my children that, because it’s true. Whether there is something after life no one can know so why waste time and energy on that? Rather harness the energy and life as best you can. Make a difference, be a better person, and the sacrifices I make for my kids, and the giving of myself for them while they are in their youth is going to make me a better parent when they are growing up and is going to make them into better people too.
Where do I need Christianity for that?

We all give of ourselves to our children with special needs (and without). We do it because we love them.
My point on this thread is that without religion, I feel that it’s easier because you do not have the burning questions, and the resentment and the bad explanations from doctrine to come to terms with.
We can get on with life, with living and with giving of ourselves.

but i know your posts well enough to know your hopelessness is a treasure you hold dear. i would fail at trying to talk you out of that. i won’t try.

then you haven’t read my posts, or misunderstood it.
I am full of hope now that I’m no longer catholic. My life is way better, things are going better, things make more sense and I’m way happier.

I am full of hope and joy…but then, maybe you just read what you want to read and that is that all people that are without jesus is bad, sad and depressed people.

I hope you come to understand one day.

PM.

 

[gardenswithkids]

You don’t have to be a Christian to learn about giving from yourself. I give of myself out of love every time my child needs me. I could roll over at 3 am and let me wife handle the kids. I let her sleep and tend to their needs.
Of course you learn to give of yourself. You do it out of love. You show them you love them by caring for them in their time of need. You give of yourself every time you make a sacrifice for them. Your time, energy, money, everything.
We all live for our children, we work to sustain them and to give them the best they deserve. We sacrifice time and money to get them the things they need and want above our own needs and desires.
We give of ourselves everyday for our children’s sake…and those with special needs, even more so than others, because they provoke more emotion, they require more effort, energy and most certainly more money….
I don’t understand what you mean in the above really…it kinda sounds to me like you are trying to say that because I’m an Atheist I don’t give of myself, or I don’t learn from giving from myself to my kids. That cannot be further from the truth.
Jesus doesn’t make me do that, I make me do that, out of love for them.

The cold fact is that you are right in your phrasing up there. We live, we die, we are worm food…but it’s what we do with the spaces in between that counts. Life is precious because we only have one. We must make the most of it. I will teach my children that, because it’s true. Whether there is something after life no one can know so why waste time and energy on that? Rather harness the energy and life as best you can. Make a difference, be a better person, and the sacrifices I make for my kids, and the giving of myself for them while they are in their youth is going to make me a better parent when they are growing up and is going to make them into better people too.
Where do I need Christianity for that?

We all give of ourselves to our children with special needs (and without). We do it because we love them.
My point on this thread is that without religion, I feel that it’s easier because you do not have the burning questions, and the resentment and the bad explanations from doctrine to come to terms with.
We can get on with life, with living and with giving of ourselves. .

Maybe not all of us are as naturally good and giving as you are. I, for one, would make a terrible atheist. All the stuff you wrote, yeah, sure one can do it, but why bother? Especially if everyone else is just worm food too. I haven’t always had the faith that I have now, but even when I had doubts it was the possibility of God’s existance that helped keep me somewhat moral. As it is even with my faith in God, I already have to fight my tendency towards laziness and materialism and selfishness.

While most parents have some natural built in instincts to love their children, not every parent would give the same degree of self-sacrifice that you describe. For example, back to the thread topic, many mothers choose to terminate their pregnancy if down syndrome is diagnosed while their child is still in utero, rather than make the sacrifices that you and others on this thread make.

…then you haven’t read my posts, or misunderstood it.
I am full of hope now that I’m no longer catholic. My life is way better, things are going better, things make more sense and I’m way happier.

I am full of hope and joy…but then, maybe you just read what you want to read and that is that all people that are without jesus is bad, sad and depressed people.

I hope you come to understand one day.

PM.

I have read many of your posts, and I remember you from when you struggled with some Church teachings. (and I’m very sorry if anything I wrote back then helped drive you away from the Church.) Frankly, I don’t think you were full of hope as a Catholic. I think you were full of fear. You wrote earlier how relieved you are no longer have the fear of hell. I understand how Church teachings on mortal sin can put the fear of hell in someone, but the rest of Church teachings offer the hope of heaven–the hope that God loves us and that He really wants to save us. Somewhere along the line before you left the Church, you seem to have lost that hope and that trust in God.

 

[PennitentMan]

Maybe not all of us are as naturally good and giving as you are. I, for one, would make a terrible atheist. All the stuff you wrote, yeah, sure one can do it, but why bother? Especially if everyone else is just worm food too. I haven’t always had the faith that I have now, but even when I had doubts it was the possibility of God’s existance that helped keep me somewhat moral. As it is even with my faith in God, I already have to fight my tendency towards laziness and materialism and selfishness.

Don’t sell yourself short, Gardens, I just think it’s because you can’t imagine a life without religion. For your kids you will do a whole heap of things, regardless of where you stand in regards to religion. Your love for them make you overcome (Even if it’s temporarily) things that you think would stop you.
Will you really choose laziness over your child’s needs? I don’t think so.

While most parents have some natural built in instincts to love their children, not every parent would give the same degree of self-sacrifice that you describe. For example, back to the thread topic, many mothers choose to terminate their pregnancy if down syndrome is diagnosed while their child is still in utero, rather than make the sacrifices that you and others on this thread make.
I have read many of your posts, and I remember you from when you struggled with some Church teachings. (and I’m very sorry if anything I wrote back then helped drive you away from the Church.) Frankly, I don’t think you were full of hope as a Catholic. I think you were full of fear. You wrote earlier how relieved you are no longer have the fear of hell. I understand how Church teachings on mortal sin can put the fear of hell in someone, but the rest of Church teachings offer the hope of heaven–the hope that God loves us and that He really wants to save us. Somewhere along the line before you left the Church, you seem to have lost that hope and that trust in God.

Sure I did…it was when I was Catholic and I started to realize that they are not going to help me and the teachings I follow so faithfully is hurting my family so badly…that’s when I lost hope in the church. I was still catholic then and still went to mass for quite a while.

And no, you didn’t post anything to drive me away at all, don’t even worry about that

 

[monicatholic]

What father among you would hand his son a snake when he asks for a fish?
Or hand him a scorpion when he asks for an egg?
If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the holy Spirit to those who ask him?" luke 11:11- 12

penitent man, i am certain you are loving and generous and giving to your son. in this you are both blessed immennsely.

i remember back, though, penitent man, you seemed (at least on this board) to not be asking for the Spirit, instead, you seemed to be asking for the Church to change the definition of marital sexuality to improve a point of struggling in your marriage.

if you are willing, my blessing would be

May the God of hope fill (us both) with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

if you are not, may it spead to anyone who accepts it.

 

[PennitentMan]

i remember back, though, penitent man, you seemed (at least on this board) to not be asking for the Spirit, instead, you seemed to be asking for the Church to change the definition of marital sexuality to improve a point of struggling in your marriage.

Of course you are right…what else was I to do when I realised that god’s not coming to my aid like he promised in the bible? All the Psalmist saying that their “help comes from the Lord”, etc…when that hope falls flay, I did want the church to change it’s ways to help us…at least there was a tangible institution to direct requests and complaints to since the heavens wasn’t answering.
Also, for the record, after I left the church I still prayed and begged for help and for more faith to stay on the right track. I sought god ernestly and even with me straying as I did and still crying out to him for help, he didn’t rescue me…that parable about the 99 sheep and him coming after the one? Yeah, well, pray that you’renever teh one, becuase he ain’t comin’.

Anyway, jsut some background…I tend to focus, especially on boards like these, on the issues that I can address. Idid seek the spirit, but that was thigns that was between me and god and between me and my spiritual advisor when I still had one…

if you are willing, my blessing would be if you are not, may it spead to anyone who accepts it.

Thank you for that. It didn’t work in the past, so I’m not hopeful that a blessing like that will work this time, but hey, maybe he will surprise me and still come after me…

Have a good night and weekend, I’ll probably only be back here on Monday or Tuseday.

PM