Downloading copyrighted music

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Trevor_Stamm

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Ave Maria

As I understand there is a difference of opinion of the subject looking through different threads, but want to see the community’s response to detailed questions on this, not the general argument.

Is it morally wrong to…

Download copyrighted music of which you already own? Example: I lost my CD, is it wrong to download the album?

Rip (upload) copyrighted music, you bought, to devices? Example: I bought a CD and copy it to my computer and then in turn copy it to my ipod, I just made 2 copies and violated copyright law.

Share that copyrighted music to a friend, knowing he/she will copy that music? Example: I loan a CD to a friend, I know he’ll rip the music off of the CD. Am I an accessory to that crime?

What of classical music, am I morally wrong to download as much Bach as I can regardless of copyright laws or not?

Thank you
 
“The Bible tells us that we are to obey the laws of the government we live under (Romans 13:1-7). That is the key issue at stake here. God commands us to obey the governmental authorities. The only allowance we have for disobeying the authorities is if they demand that we disobey something God has commanded (Acts 5:29). It is not inherently evil to download and share music, movies, etc. However, it is ethically wrong to download and/or share copyrighted music, movies, etc., without the permission of the artist / publisher, which is piracy, because doing so is a violation of the law, and God commands us to obey the law.”
gotquestions.org/sin-copyright.html

This is our Apologist, Michelle Arnold’s answer:
Code:
                                                              It is not intrinsically immoral to download free music, but it may be  against the law.  As it is within the just purview of the law to  restrict such free downloads, a Catholic should respect the law if there  is one in place.  Check with a lawyer -- one who specializes in  copyright law would be especially helpful -- to find out what the laws  are in this matter.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2471
 
I am not attorney and have never played one on TV, but the general rule as I have heard the law explained is:

It is illegal to use copyrighted material commercially. If I buy the CD, I can make copies for personal use. I cannot legally make copies and sell them. If I am wrong, please correct me.

There is another issue and that one is the morality. People who provide services, writing, singing, playing, whatever, deserve to be paid. They are using their talents to make a living. If I were to buy the discs and then made free copies for others, I would be depriving the performers of income they rightfully earned. In my mind, that is theft.
 
Ave Maria

As I understand there is a difference of opinion of the subject looking through different threads, but want to see the community’s response to detailed questions on this, not the general argument.

Is it morally wrong to…

Download copyrighted music of which you already own? Example: I lost my CD, is it wrong to download the album?

Rip (upload) copyrighted music, you bought, to devices? Example: I bought a CD and copy it to my computer and then in turn copy it to my ipod, I just made 2 copies and violated copyright law.

Share that copyrighted music to a friend, knowing he/she will copy that music? Example: I loan a CD to a friend, I know he’ll rip the music off of the CD. Am I an accessory to that crime?

What of classical music, am I morally wrong to download as much Bach as I can regardless of copyright laws or not?

Thank you
First of all, it depends on the license agreement. In other words, none of the above is wrong if the license allows it. Some music is put out there with the INTENTION that it’s going to be distributed as much as possible–in other words, as a form of advertising. If that’s what the copyright holder (artist, label, whatever it might be) allows, then it’s fine to do so. For those readers not familiar, sometimes a band might release the title song of their album for public distribution in the hopes that people will share it and more will then buy the album.

However, most commercial music does not have that kind of license. I’m only mentioning the above to illustrate that there isn’t necessarily a one-size answer to the questions.

I’ll respond from the perspective of “most” commercially available music in electronic form.
  1. Download it. If you’re downloading it from the original source, then it’s no problem. The seller often ALLOWS this to happen. The new way that iTunes works is even setup to accomodate this. When you buy music on a computer (for example) you can later download the same music to an iPad. They not only know you’re doing this, but they have made this a selling-point for their products. As for those who do not allow it, they have procedures in place to make sure the user only downloads it once–so unless you find some work-around (not likely) it can’t happen anyway. And if you do need to use a work-around, that in itself should tell you it’s wrong. On the other hand, if you mean that you buy it from one source and download it from a completely different source–say you buy the CD in a store but download it from an illicit site, then it’s wrong. Your question seems to be about this scenario. The answer would be that you download it from a site that’s run by whoever sold you the CD (not the store itself but the copyright holder) it’s OK (again, for those not aware, some physical CDs include digital downloads as a bonus). If you buy it from one place but download it from another, it’s wrong.
  2. Ripping. Generally this is morally OK on the condition that you do so for strictly your own personal use. Buy a CD and put it on your iPod? No problem. Give the file to your friend? Not right.
  3. Sharing. Immoral and illegal. Again, unless the license allows this, this is certainly copyright violation. The only time this is OK would be if the artist says outright “this is a free sample, please give it to your friends so that they’ll buy our new CD…”
  4. Classical music. Even though Beethoven no longer holds the copyright to his symphonies, the musicians, producers, and everyone else involved in producing the CD still did their own work to make that CD happen, so making illegal copies (digital or otherwise) is stealing from them.
The apologist gave a good response there. The key words I’d like to point-out is the “without permission” part. If you don’t have “permission” from the copyright holder, it’s wrong. That permission is usually defined in the license agreement.

In the past few years, what has become “the usual” in music license agreements has been changing (again, the new iTunes is a good example), so what was “always illegal” a few years ago, might be perfectly legitimate today.
 
Allow me to play devil’s advocate.
  1. Download it. If you’re downloading it from the original source, then it’s no problem. The seller often ALLOWS this to happen. The new way that iTunes works is even setup to accomodate this. When you buy music on a computer (for example) you can later download the same music to an iPad. They not only know you’re doing this, but they have made this a selling-point for their products. As for those who do not allow it, they have procedures in place to make sure the user only downloads it once–so unless you find some work-around (not likely) it can’t happen anyway. And if you do need to use a work-around, that in itself should tell you it’s wrong. On the other hand, if you mean that you buy it from one source and download it from a completely different source–say you buy the CD in a store but download it from an illicit site, then it’s wrong. Your question seems to be about this scenario. The answer would be that you download it from a site that’s run by whoever sold you the CD (not the store itself but the copyright holder) it’s OK (again, for those not aware, some physical CDs include digital downloads as a bonus). If you buy it from one place but download it from another, it’s wrong.
So, let’s get this straight. I buy a CD, it’s wrong to download the same exact songs from the internet from file sharing in case I lost the CD and did not backup. I buy an album through iTunes, my computer crashes, loose all information, restart, and it’s not wrong to get iTunes back on and redownload all the songs. Explain why the former is wrong and the latter is OK.
  1. Ripping. Generally this is morally OK on the condition that you do so for strictly your own personal use. Buy a CD and put it on your iPod? No problem. Give the file to your friend? Not right.
Why is this morally OK? Ripping = copying, copyrights = do not copy, thus no one should ever rip their CDs or upload the songs to their iPod. Let’s examine the latter, I download songs off iTunes and copy them to an iPod, why is that morally OK and my first question morally wrong?
  1. Sharing. Immoral and illegal. Again, unless the license allows this, this is certainly copyright violation. The only time this is OK would be if the artist says outright “this is a free sample, please give it to your friends so that they’ll buy our new CD…”
Examine the question again, I asked is it morally wrong to loan a CD with the intent to get it back so your friend can listen to it, but also knowing he rips and downloads songs, free, all day.
 
Allow me to play devil’s advocate.
So, let’s get this straight. I buy a CD, it’s wrong to download the same exact songs from the internet from file sharing in case I lost the CD and did not backup. I buy an album through iTunes, my computer crashes, loose all information, restart, and it’s not wrong to get iTunes back on and redownload all the songs. Explain why the former is wrong and the latter is OK.
Fair question.
The difference is in the license agreement. When you buy a physical CD, you’re buying just that. When you buy from iTunes, the license (which is legal) allows you to re-download it. So, even if the cost is the same, you’ve paid for the ability to re-download and the copyright holder (through iTunes) has sold you a license to re-download. When you buy the file, you’re giving money in exchange for certain privileges. Exercising those privileges is perfectly legitimate.

The other difference is that the internet file sharing service is illegal. They’re distributing illegal copies of songs and that’s what you’re getting–an illegal copy. If the file sharing service is legal and they have a contract with the copyright holder allowing them to do it, then it’s fine (but as far as I know that’s very unlikely)
Why is this morally OK? Ripping = copying, copyrights = do not copy, thus no one should ever rip their CDs or upload the songs to their iPod. Let’s examine the latter, I download songs off iTunes and copy them to an iPod, why is that morally OK and my first question morally wrong?
Again, because of the license. Apple has made legitimate arrangements with copyright holders allowing Apple to sell their music according to certain terms. One of those terms is that the end user is given a license to upload those songe to iPods. Again here, you’re merely exercising a privilege that you’ve paid for.

There’s a principle called “fair use” that allows a person who owns something that’s copyrighted to make strictly personal copies for one’s own use. I can copy a single page of a copyrighted book, for example, but I can’t copy the whole thing and distribute it to friends. The legalities of “fair use” are better answered by a lawyer than a priest, but suffice to say that personal use of music that you’ve legally bought is not morally wrong.

As long as you paid for the CD, there’s no problem with putting it onto a portable unit because it’s just a different way of listening to what is legitimately yours.
Examine the question again, I asked is it morally wrong to loan a CD with the intent to get it back so your friend can listen to it, but also knowing he rips and downloads songs, free, all day.
Trevor, you’ve changed the question. That wasn’t what you asked in the OP. The first time, you specifically asked about loaning it to someone knowing that the other would copy it. You changed it the second time around. Either way though, the answer is that it’s still morally wrong because the first time, one knows that the other will make an illegal copy, the second time, one certainly expects that the friend will make an illegal copy. It doesn’t matter though because regardless of how it’s phrases, one is still materially participating in someone else’s crime, and someone else’s sin. It’s still wrong.

I know you’re serious about asking these questions, so please bear with me as I try to respond here.

Let’s take a different example.

If you walk into a store and there’s a display of apples, the display says “apples 5 cents” you can pick up an apple, hand the clerk a nickel and walk out. Perfectly legitimate.

If you pick up 2 apples, but only pay 5 cents, then that’s stealing. You know that. That was Tuesday.
Go back to the store on Wednesday, and you see a new sign “apples, 2 for 5 cents” Of course, if you hand over a nickel and take 2 apples, you’re not stealing. Why was it stealing on Tuesday but not Wednesday? Simple, because the terms of the sale changed. The store owner has decided to “change the terms” and say that the customer is allowed to take 2 apples today even though it was only one yesterday. Same with music licenses. If the copyright holder decides to change the terms and tell the customer “you’re allowed to download this music onto as many devices as you own” then you’re not doing anything wrong by taking advantage (within reason) of that license.

Back to the apples. If you buy an apple for 5c at “Mr. A’s grocery” that’s all you get. You can’t go across the street to “Mr B’s grocery” and take an apple from the display just because you “already paid for it” across the street. Same with music. If you buy a CD, that’s what you get. You’re not entitled to download an MP3 just because you already own the music on the CD.

As for downloading from illicit sites: Just because you buy a CD from a store, that doesn’t entitle you to download a “free” copy from an illegal site. That would be like knowing that Mr Bs apples were actually stolen from Mr As store when he wasn’t looking, and accepting a “free” apple from Mr B just because he’s willing to give it to you for no charge. You know that would be a form of stealing. Whether it’s music or apples, it’s still stealing.

Back to your friend. If you knowingly and materially participate in someone else stealing something (whether it’s physical or intellectual property) it’s still morally wrong. Although it doesn’t rise to the same level, it’s like someone asking you “I’m going to rob a bank and I need a getaway car, may I borrow yours for the day?” You already know that’s wrong. Same with music. If you know that the friend will make an illegal copy, you’re guilty of participating in the sin of another. From what you describe, it’s hard to imagine that your friend would “not” make an illegal copy, so if you participate you’re likely guilty.

Try that on for size and let me know your thoughts.
 
Allow me to ask a somewhat related question here.

What if a person is too poor to buy some music, say. If he downloads it for free, it wouldn’t really cause the artist any monetary loss, since it’s in digital form, and although either way, the artist would not be receiving any money, downloading would allow a person to listen to some nice music when he couldn’t have otherwise! Would that be morally wrong?

Apparently, from this Catechism teaching, it seems that it wouldn’t really be counted as theft, since theft occurs when some property is taken against the reasonable will of the owner.
CCC 2408
The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods.
emphasis mine

What do you think?
 
Trevor, you’ve changed the question. That wasn’t what you asked in the OP. The first time, you specifically asked about loaning it to someone knowing that the other would copy it. You changed it the second time around. Either way though, the answer is that it’s still morally wrong because the first time, one knows that the other will make an illegal copy, the second time, one certainly expects that the friend will make an illegal copy. It doesn’t matter though because regardless of how it’s phrases, one is still materially participating in someone else’s crime, and someone else’s sin. It’s still wrong.

I know you’re serious about asking these questions, so please bear with me as I try to respond here.

Let’s take a different example.

If you walk into a store and there’s a display of apples, the display says “apples 5 cents” you can pick up an apple, hand the clerk a nickel and walk out. Perfectly legitimate.

If you pick up 2 apples, but only pay 5 cents, then that’s stealing. You know that. That was Tuesday.
Go back to the store on Wednesday, and you see a new sign “apples, 2 for 5 cents” Of course, if you hand over a nickel and take 2 apples, you’re not stealing. Why was it stealing on Tuesday but not Wednesday? Simple, because the terms of the sale changed. The store owner has decided to “change the terms” and say that the customer is allowed to take 2 apples today even though it was only one yesterday. Same with music licenses. If the copyright holder decides to change the terms and tell the customer “you’re allowed to download this music onto as many devices as you own” then you’re not doing anything wrong by taking advantage (within reason) of that license.

Back to the apples. If you buy an apple for 5c at “Mr. A’s grocery” that’s all you get. You can’t go across the street to “Mr B’s grocery” and take an apple from the display just because you “already paid for it” across the street. Same with music. If you buy a CD, that’s what you get. You’re not entitled to download an MP3 just because you already own the music on the CD.

As for downloading from illicit sites: Just because you buy a CD from a store, that doesn’t entitle you to download a “free” copy from an illegal site. That would be like knowing that Mr Bs apples were actually stolen from Mr As store when he wasn’t looking, and accepting a “free” apple from Mr B just because he’s willing to give it to you for no charge. You know that would be a form of stealing. Whether it’s music or apples, it’s still stealing.

Back to your friend. If you knowingly and materially participate in someone else stealing something (whether it’s physical or intellectual property) it’s still morally wrong. Although it doesn’t rise to the same level, it’s like someone asking you “I’m going to rob a bank and I need a getaway car, may I borrow yours for the day?” You already know that’s wrong. Same with music. If you know that the friend will make an illegal copy, you’re guilty of participating in the sin of another. From what you describe, it’s hard to imagine that your friend would “not” make an illegal copy, so if you participate you’re likely guilty.

Try that on for size and let me know your thoughts.
Apologies for not making the question clear the first time. Within the act of sharing, or loaning, one expects the return of what is shared, naturally. So when I give you a CD, I expect it back, whenever you’re done with it. Giving the CD to a friend so he listen to it is OK, but when you know him to be a big time file sharer/ripper/downloader, it’s expected that he’ll do it to what you’ve lent him.

I get you analogies, makes sense. You tapped into a subject though that I’ve always had problems with, the 2 apples for 5 cents. Is it wrong to take things, regardless if they are given or not without paying their true value such as the two apples?

Example, whenever I goto starbucks (rarely now) I always ordered a plain coffee from pot. Sometimes they just ran out and have to wait for a new pot to brew, and they offer it for free. I explicitly tell them, no I want to pay for what I’m getting regardless if I waited ten seconds or ten minutes. This happens at other times with other things and always pay for what I get. Basically I believe if you can pay, pay regardless if you offered it for free. If you don’t have the funds, accept it as charity.

The mental gymnastics to try and justify free music downloads and the multi-sidedness of the copyright laws and the new laws, etc… is a little too much for me. Think this is why I’m weaning myself off music in general and listening to Latin chants and classical music.
 
Why should I buy a song if a friend “shares” it with me? I now have my own copy. Does that mean I’m going to buy another one?

Streaming movies are available. Should I just borrow one from my friend and then go out and pay for a copy/download?

The issue is, as long as “file sharing” sites exist, they are depriving artists of their rightful compensation. If all my of my “friends” on the internet “shared” copies of all the songs I was interested in, is that OK?

If someone had to buy a physical vinyl record and it was lost or damaged or stolen, what is the solution?

Peace,
Ed
 
Apologies for not making the question clear the first time. Within the act of sharing, or loaning, one expects the return of what is shared, naturally. So when I give you a CD, I expect it back, whenever you’re done with it. Giving the CD to a friend so he listen to it is OK, but when you know him to be a big time file sharer/ripper/downloader, it’s expected that he’ll do it to what you’ve lent him.

I get you analogies, makes sense. You tapped into a subject though that I’ve always had problems with, the 2 apples for 5 cents. Is it wrong to take things, regardless if they are given or not without paying their true value such as the two apples?

Example, whenever I goto starbucks (rarely now) I always ordered a plain coffee from pot. Sometimes they just ran out and have to wait for a new pot to brew, and they offer it for free. I explicitly tell them, no I want to pay for what I’m getting regardless if I waited ten seconds or ten minutes. This happens at other times with other things and always pay for what I get. Basically I believe if you can pay, pay regardless if you offered it for free. If you don’t have the funds, accept it as charity.

The mental gymnastics to try and justify free music downloads and the multi-sidedness of the copyright laws and the new laws, etc… is a little too much for me. Think this is why I’m weaning myself off music in general and listening to Latin chants and classical music.
No. It isn’t necessarily wrong to pay less than true value when you buy something. It would be if you’re deceiving the seller, or taking advantage of the seller in some way. So if you stick one magazine inside another and pay only for the outside one, that’s still stealing. If you take advantage of the seller in some way, it’s stealing. Some examples:

–wrong price tag
–broken scale (weighs 2 pounds but the scale reads 1 3/4)
–clerk is very busy and you talk fast to confuse him
–clerk offers something at a lower price, but doesn’t have authority to do so.
–you tell someone that a thing is worth less than it actually is (“look friend, whoever sold you that ripped you off, that’s not real gold, but I’ll take it off your hands as a favor to you”)

The seller is free to offer you merchandise at any price. If the seller wants to lower the price, there’s nothing (nothing at all) wrong with accepting the offer and getting a good bargain. The only exception would be if you’re forcing it to happen, like say “look old man, I can either buy this vase at half price or I just might drop it on the floor”

You can’t take advantage of another’s misfortune. So offering to buy an antique gold watch for $2 from someone who is homeless and starving would be a form of stealing. But misfortune isn’t the same thing as “good timing” so buying a car at the right time of the month (the end) or waiting for an item to go on sale price is just being savvy, not sinful.

As long as the seller is willing to make the deal without any deception or coercion, there’s no problem.

As for Starbucks, you don’t need to be concerned. What’s happening there is either company policy or manager’s policy. Unless it’s being done AGAINST policy, it’s fine. I used to work in fast food and I can tell you that giving things away to customers to make them happy is part of the business. The owner used to tell us “I’d rather see a free pie go out the door than an angry customer.”

Now, it would be dishonest of you if you make an effort to manipulate things to get your free coffee. If you sit outside the store and watch through the window looking for them to run out of coffee, and when they do, you run in and order some, then you’re manipulating things, and your being dishonest. Doesn’t sound like that’s even close to what you’re doing.

If you offer to pay, but the management (directly or through an employee) wants to give it to you free, no problem. There’s no moral problem there at all. From the store’s point of view, it’s just good customer relations.

There’s nothing wrong with getting a bargain, even if it’s a really really good bargain, as long as the seller is willing to engage in the trade without any deception or coercion.
 
Why should I buy a song if a friend “shares” it with me? I now have my own copy. Does that mean I’m going to buy another one?

Streaming movies are available. Should I just borrow one from my friend and then go out and pay for a copy/download?

The issue is, as long as “file sharing” sites exist, they are depriving artists of their rightful compensation. If all my of my “friends” on the internet “shared” copies of all the songs I was interested in, is that OK?

If someone had to buy a physical vinyl record and it was lost or damaged or stolen, what is the solution?

Peace,
Ed
Ed,
I don’t think Trevor is trying to defend infringing on anyone’s rights. On the contrary, I think he is asking those questions because he’s looking for some guidance on how to do the right thing.
 
I think some very good answers have been given. I suggest talking with a priest.

Peace,
Ed
 
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