Downloading media a sin?

[Antonio_022]

Ok, so my friend is a very educated catholic devoted to becoming a priest. He spends his days meditating at the church, attending seminaries, and serving during masses.

When I talked to him about movies, he said he’s downloading a TV series and he doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. Same goes with the teachers at my school (Which is Opus Dei btw). Whenever a movie is going to be shown, it’s almost always torrented. Heck, not even our priest has a problem with it. I’m having mixed feelings about this which is why I’m asking you. What do you think about it?

 

[suko]

Personally, I think it depends. There are some sites that have shows, media, etc. that u can legally download for personal use, but u just can’t distribute them or make a profit off of them (thus, nothing sinful about that as one is abiding by all the laws). However, I think a site that illegally hosts shows or torrents is wrong. I think it is also wrong to download from a site that illegally hosts shows or torrents, as one is supporting a site that is engaging in criminal activity. Yes, people have gotten busted for illegally hosting movies, media, etc. I believe laws vary from country to country though.

You should find out what shows they are downloading and from what sites. For all we know, they might be doing everything legally. You can also ask them if they are aware of all the copyright laws and whatnot, but before that, it might be good to make sure u understand first all the rules behind it.

 

[Antonio_022]

I have this other question.

Does watching/streaming (NOT DOWNLOADING) TV shows from a non-legitimate site still count as a sin?

Whereas, there is a legitimate site that also streams said shows but is not available in your country.

Does it still count?

 

[suko]

I have this other question.

Does watching/streaming (NOT DOWNLOADING) TV shows from a non-legitimate site still count as a sin?

Whereas, there is a legitimate site that also streams said shows but is not available in your country.

Does it still count?

As an anime fan, there are many non-legal sites that I would love to go to watch some series that aren’t available on CR (Crunchyroll), Hulu, or any of the other legal sites. But I feel that it is still wrong though since the non-legal sites are still going against copyright laws, and as Christians, I feel we should try to abide by all man-made laws, as long as that particular law doesn’t go against something from our faith.

As for the 2nd part of your question, when u have a legitimate site that streams shows, say CR for instance, they have legally obtained the right for certain countries to stream certain shows on their site, and sometimes, the UK or Ireland, etc. get left out. So if a show is not available in a person’s country, it means that the site (like CR) did not pay to have the legal rights to stream it in that particular country. So, u pretty much won’t be able to watch it on that particular site (like CR) anyway, the only way to watch it would be thru non-legal ways, which obviously, I don’t support.

 

[Antonio_022]

Personally, I think it depends. There are some sites that have shows, media, etc. that u can legally download for personal use, but u just can’t distribute them or make a profit off of them (thus, nothing sinful about that as one is abiding by all the laws). However, I think a site that illegally hosts shows or torrents is wrong. I think it is also wrong to download from a site that illegally hosts shows or torrents, as one is supporting a site that is engaging in criminal activity. Yes, people have gotten busted for illegally hosting movies, media, etc. I believe laws vary from country to country though.

You should find out what shows they are downloading and from what sites. For all we know, they might be doing everything legally. You can also ask them if they are aware of all the copyright laws and whatnot, but before that, it might be good to make sure u understand first all the rules behind it.

Some use sites like TPB (Which I heard was illegal). I talked to them and no one believe it to be stealing. It’s more of like a “They-see-they-get” sort of deal.

As for me, I think of “downloading” media along these lines:

An author released a book and only sold one. Why? Because that one person who bought said book let all the other people borrow it passing on from person to person, until it is donated to a library where everyone can read it and the author is only left with a dime. However, the author is still praised for his work by the people who read it even if he only sold one copy. This is not stealing.

Wouldn’t the same thing happen if an artist composed a song and one person bought a digital copy and shared it to the world? Making copies or not, those people still HEAR the music just as the people READ the book?

If so, why is the sharing of music stealing whereas sharing a book is not!?

 

[anruari]

There’s a simple aplication of new testament scripture:

If a law of your land does not contradict the Loa of God, you are bound to follow it. It is a sin to be disobedient to Lawful authorities (unless their orders are to commit sin).

So: Downloading copyrighted material from illegal sites is illegal. it is theft & it is disobedient.
Downloading material which is legitimately given for licensed use of made “Public Domain” is fully legitimate. Sometimes this is distributed via “Torrents”, a good example is much of the “Linux” computer ecosystem where operating systems and software are made available for no charge, and with a licence that explicitly permits you to change and or distribute or even sell the content.

Downloading music and movies is handling copyright material. There are some sources that have limited free legal downloads and many sources of free legal streams… but there are many many illegal free download sites. it is a criminal act and theft to use these sites.
It is immoral on both the moral requirement to not steal, and it is immoral on the requirement to obey legitimate civil authority.

 

[Antonio_022]

There’s a simple aplication of new testament scripture:

If a law of your land does not contradict the Loa of God, you are bound to follow it. It is a sin to be disobedient to Lawful authorities (unless their orders are to commit sin).

So: Downloading copyrighted material from illegal sites is illegal. it is theft & it is disobedient.
Downloading material which is legitimately given for licensed use of made “Public Domain” is fully legitimate. Sometimes this is distributed via “Torrents”, a good example is much of the “Linux” computer ecosystem where operating systems and software are made available for no charge, and with a licence that explicitly permits you to change and or distribute or even sell the content.

Downloading music and movies is handling copyright material. There are some sources that have limited free legal downloads and many sources of free legal streams… but there are many many illegal free download sites. it is a criminal act and theft to use these sites.
It is immoral on both the moral requirement to not steal, and it is immoral on the requirement to obey legitimate civil authority.

First off, it is still unsure whether piracy is theft or not. You cannot steal something that doesn’t exist such as “lost sales”.

HOWEVER! (Before I’m bombarded by the morality police) There is a possibility where it CAN be theft. For example: Someone STOLE (As in physically) an item, uploaded it, and began charging people for it to be downloaded. This is when Piracy becomes stealing.

IMO, Piracy ≠ Stealing

As for legality, not all law breaking acts can result in sin. Another example: Smoking is banned in some countries whereas smoking in itself is not sinful.

Also one other thing. Downloading JB’s newest album ≠ One-way trip to fire

 

[Joe_5859]

If so, why is the sharing of music stealing whereas sharing a book is not!?

When we share a physical copy of something, only one person gets to use it at a time. When we share digital copies, we – and everyone we share it with – simultaneously keeps a copy in perpetuity. That’s a huge difference. Further, there’s no way I could share the same copy of a physical book with millions of people in a lifetime let alone in an instant. With digital copies, the whole world can have access instantaneously.

I know lots of people make lots of arguments about stealing and potential lost wages for the artist, etc. That’s all well and good. But for me what it boils down to is respecting the just laws of our civil society. If our civil government makes a law and it does not violate moral teaching, then we ought to follow it.

By the way, what country are you from? I know I have seen posters from the Phillipines say that it is almost impossible to find a copy of anything that is not pirated. Even the stores sell pirated DVDs! If that’s the culture one is immersed in, I can see how people would think it is no big deal. So depending on where you live, that might be why many people you encounter don’t seem to have a problem with it.

 

[Antonio_022]

When we share a physical copy of something, only one person gets to use it at a time. When we share digital copies, we – and everyone we share it with – simultaneously keeps a copy in perpetuity. That’s a huge difference. Further, there’s no way I could share the same copy of a physical book with millions of people in a lifetime let alone in an instant. With digital copies, the whole world can have access instantaneously.

I know lots of people make lots of arguments about stealing and potential lost wages for the artist, etc. That’s all well and good. But for me what it boils down to is respecting the just laws of our civil society. If our civil government makes a law and it does not violate moral teaching, then we ought to follow it.

By the way, what country are you from? I know I have seen posters from the Phillipines say that it is almost impossible to find a copy of anything that is not pirated. Even the stores sell pirated DVDs! If that’s the culture one is immersed in, I can see how people would think it is no big deal. So depending on where you live, that might be why many people you encounter don’t seem to have a problem with it.

Metro Manila, Philippines. Born and raised.

Yes it is true that any form of software is hard to come by which is why we just decide to pirate it. Whenever I hear something on the news about piracy, it’s always about some pornographic scandal that went viral.

There was this one time the government attempted to “cease” piracy through posting in a new law and more than half of the country declined. We kept going on and on about internet rights and such and we eventually won

However, there was this one battle we did NOT won… (Catholics from the Philippines will know what I’m talking about) ehem RH ehem

 

[Joe_5859]

Metro Manila, Philippines. Born and raised.

Yes it is true that any form of software is hard to come by which is why we just decide to pirate it. Whenever I hear something on the news about piracy, it’s always about some pornographic scandal that went viral.

There was this one time the government attempted to “cease” piracy through posting in a new law and more than half of the country declined. We kept going on and on about internet rights and such and we eventually won

However, there was this one battle we did NOT won… (Catholics from the Philippines will know what I’m talking about) ehem RH ehem

I had that feeling.

I know it’s a lot easier to say piracy is wrong when I have easy access to everything anyway. I would think it would be quite difficult to deal with when it’s so systemic. I’d normally just say ask your priest, but you already did.

 

[edwest2]

Ok, so my friend is a very educated catholic devoted to becoming a priest. He spends his days meditating at the church, attending seminaries, and serving during masses.

When I talked to him about movies, he said he’s downloading a TV series and he doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. Same goes with the teachers at my school (Which is Opus Dei btw). Whenever a movie is going to be shown, it’s almost always torrented. Heck, not even our priest has a problem with it. I’m having mixed feelings about this which is why I’m asking you. What do you think about it?

It’s wrong. The copyright owner has the right to copy. Nobody else. He also also has control over how it is distributed.

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/white_collar/ipr/ipr

Peace,
Ed

 

[Antonio_022]

I had that feeling.

I know it’s a lot easier to say piracy is wrong when I have easy access to everything anyway. I would think it would be quite difficult to deal with when it’s so systemic. I’d normally just say ask your priest, but you already did.

You don’t even know the beginning of it. Some sellers even go as far as recycling an old blu-ray cover, inserting a burned disc and passing it off as an original which, in my opinion, is worse than actual download.

 

[Joe_5859]

You don’t even know the beginning of it. Some sellers even go as far as recycling an old blu-ray cover, inserting a burned disc and passing it off as an original which, in my opinion, is worse than actual download.

Yeah, that’s pretty deceptive on top of everything else.

 

[MacBP]

I don’t think the OP’s situation is terribly uncommon. I know at least one or two dedicated Catholics who see nothing wrong with downloading movies or music. Granted, the situation is slightly different in Canada (where, as I understand it, it is permissible to download content but not to upload it).

Nevertheless, once I decided to come into communion with the Catholic Church I made a decision to stop downloading music, movies, and video games. I have no doubt I made the right decision. Regadless of whether or not piracy actually hurts the producer (it may not), regardless of whether it is illegal to download (see Canada), I still think it is wrong to pirate. I know that if I spent days, weeks, months or even years producing something I would feel as though I deserved to be compensated. No one needs anything that can be download, and so I can’t imagine how one can justify violating the creator’s wishes.

One grey area might be forms of media that one can no longer purchase. For example. Malcolm in the Middle was never released on DVD. In Canada, there is no way to legally obtain Malcolm in the Middle. If a person were to download the show, would it be sinful given the fact that the person has no ability to compensate the creators? I’m still not going to download that show, but I think that one would be hard pressed to find fault in the decision.

 

[edwest2]

I don’t think the OP’s situation is terribly uncommon. I know at least one or two dedicated Catholics who see nothing wrong with downloading movies or music. Granted, the situation is slightly different in Canada (where, as I understand it, it is permissible to download content but not to upload it).

Nevertheless, once I decided to come into communion with the Catholic Church I made a decision to stop downloading music, movies, and video games. I have no doubt I made the right decision. Regadless of whether or not piracy actually hurts the producer (it may not), regardless of whether it is illegal to download (see Canada), I still think it is wrong to pirate. I know that if I spent days, weeks, months or even years producing something I would feel as though I deserved to be compensated. No one needs anything that can be download, and so I can’t imagine how one can justify violating the creator’s wishes.

One grey area might be forms of media that one can no longer purchase. For example. Malcolm in the Middle was never released on DVD. In Canada, there is no way to legally obtain Malcolm in the Middle. If a person were to download the show, would it be sinful given the fact that the person has no ability to compensate the creators? I’m still not going to download that show, but I think that one would be hard pressed to find fault in the decision.

As a producer of media, my company loses money every time something we produce ends up on a file stealing site. If something is not available, only the copyright holder can decide not to release it again. No one has any right to violate his copyright, which means right to copy.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Antonio_022]

It’s wrong. The copyright owner has the right to copy. Nobody else. He also also has control over how it is distributed.

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/white_collar/ipr/ipr

Peace,
Ed

Look, i see where you’re coming from. But in here, it works completely different.

In the US, Anti-Piracy may be a top-tier law but in the Philippines, my country, it falls right under “No Littering”.

Which is why nobody here sees the problem with copying and downloading whereas the prices here are UNFAIR. Piracy here is nothing. Which is why not me, not parents, nor teachers, and not even priests see the problem with piracy.

 

[anruari]

Look, i see where you’re coming from. But in here, it works completely different.

In the US, Anti-Piracy may be a top-tier law but in the Philippines, my country, it falls right under “No Littering”.

Which is why nobody here sees the problem with copying and downloading whereas the prices here are UNFAIR. Piracy here is nothing. Which is why not me, not parents, nor teachers, and not even priests see the problem with piracy.

Just because “everybody’s doing it” does not make it morally justified.
“Everybody” is using Contraception and having abortions.
“Everybody” lies.
“Everybody” drives under the influence of alcohol
“Everybody” at college / university takes illegal drugs
“Everybody” steals, and pirates stuff of the internet…

Sin is sin
Piracy is Theft.
Thou Shalt Not Steal

Just because a law in not able to be enforced (like piracy laws) or is just Wrong (Like abortion laws) does not make it OK to carry out immoral acts.

To show a movie or other show in a public environment like a school or church requires not just a normal legal copy, but also an additional licence.
If you look at many catechetical DVD’s they have 2 prices. One for private or home use, and a totally different price for the version which includes a licence for public use at a church or school.

You will notice the copyright notice at the start of commercial DVD’s explicitly state they may not be shown at Schools, Churches, Oil-Rigs or other public or institutional locations.

 

[Antonio_022]

Just because “everybody’s doing it” does not make it morally justified.
“Everybody” is using Contraception and having abortions.
“Everybody” lies.
“Everybody” drives under the influence of alcohol
“Everybody” at college / university takes illegal drugs
“Everybody” steals, and pirates stuff of the internet…

Sin is sin
Piracy is Theft.
Thou Shalt Not Steal

Just because a law in not able to be enforced (like piracy laws) or is just Wrong (Like abortion laws) does not make it OK to carry out immoral acts.

To show a movie or other show in a public environment like a school or church requires not just a normal legal copy, but also an additional licence.
If you look at many catechetical DVD’s they have 2 prices. One for private or home use, and a totally different price for the version which includes a licence for public use at a church or school.

You will notice the copyright notice at the start of commercial DVD’s explicitly state they may not be shown at Schools, Churches, Oil-Rigs or other public or institutional locations.

So basically, if a video downloaded from youtube is shown during mass, which happens alot, does that mean everyone watching is guilty of sin? I’m sorry but i don’t understand that logic at all. Once a product is bought, it’s YOURS. Nobody elses.

And another thing. How can you prove that piracy is THEFT? Those companies lose nothing at all. (Dont even talk to me about lost sales)

 

[anruari]

So basically, if a video downloaded from youtube is shown during mass, which happens a lot, does that mean everyone watching is guilty of sin? I’m sorry but i don’t understand that logic at all. Once a product is bought, it’s YOURS. Nobody elses.

1. videos should not be shown during a mass. there is no legitimate place for this within the Liturgy. This would constitute Liturgical Abuse.
2. I don’t know the fine details about the license requirements on YouTube. YouTube is a legal Streaming Website. It is a breach of the licence of most of the videos to actually download and store a separate copy. you should view the videos based on using the streamed service.

The guilt in this situation would lie with the person making the decisions and with the Priest responsible, not with the individual members of the congregation.

And another thing. How can you prove that piracy is THEFT? Those companies lose nothing at all. (Don’t even talk to me about lost sales)

Lost sales are hypothetical. However there remains the issue of Theft. If I am an architect, and I design a building I (or my company) own those designs. If someone obtains a copy of those plans and uses them or modifies them and then uses them they have stolen from me or my company the Intellectual Property vested in those designs.

From the words of Christ: “The Labourer deserves his wages.” So the owners of intellectual property have just as much right to just recompence for the use of that property as the owners of physical goods.

When you purchase a piece of computer software you are required to consent to the terms of the License under which that software is published. that licence will normally stipulate that it is for use on a single computer, or for a maximum of 3 computers within a single home. or some other explicit stipulation.

It you make a copy of the disk and give or sell that you your friend you have breached the terms of the contract you signed in buying the original software. Your friend has obtained goods in breach of the law and without paying for them. It is in essence no different than if he had gone into a shop, picked up a box containing that software and walked out without paying for it. It is exactly the same thing.

Now. I would point again to the original and most important argument here. If a government says something is Illegal, and that law does not force you to commit a sin by obeying it, then you must obey that law or you are committing a sin.

If you sign a contract and have no intention of obeying the terms of that contract you are bearing false witness, and committing an act of fraud.

If you sign a contract you are bound by it’s content. (unless it would cause you to sin… in which case it may have been sinful to sign in the first place.)

If you don’t like the terms of the license of some piece of software, then download a “Free” rival software from www.sourceforge.net. everything on there is free to download, free to use, and includes a license agreement that explicitly permits you to re-sell and / or modify the software to your needs or other peoples needs.
Of course few people will pay you for software that they can download for free unless you have modified it… but that’s a separate point, and there’s no sin for you if they do pay you.

Now. Lets consider the terms of “License”
If I have a “Fishing License” or “Hunting License” that gives me the right to hunt or fish in a specific location that’s fine. It will probably give me the right to take a set number of anmilas or fish in a given time period… e.g. I used to fish on a license that set a "Bag Limit2 of 2 fish per day form one of the lakes it covered.
If I caught and kept 5 or 6 fish I would be in breach of the terms of the license, and would be stealing those fish.

If I made a photocopy (or better forgery) of that license and sold it to a friend or other person then I would be stealing from the organisation that issue the license, and either lying to the Friend (pretending it was a real license) or I would be asking him to also commit fraud and theft by using a forged license.

 

[anruari]

If I buy a movie on DVD or Blue-Ray then I am buying a copy of the information, under the terms of a specific standard license agreement. If I don’t like the price or the terms of the license I don’t have to buy it. - but somebody paid Millions of dollars to make that movie, the have a right to a return on that investment.
If I want to show that movie to a club or other group of people then the standard license does not cover that use. I must buy a version which includes that license or I must obtain the additional license separately.
I may not set up a “Cinema” or a “Cinema Club” and show standard domestic DVD’s whether or not the people viewing are paying to be there. the terms of the licence under which I bought the copy of the movie explicitly prohibit this use, and alternative licence systems are available to facilitate my intended use.

The producer of the original material has a right to proper recompense and the right to issue the material under the licence terms as he sees fit. If I don’t like that I don’t have to buy his product. I don’t have the right to make an illegal copy, and far more so I don’t have the right to sell or give away for free illegal copies of someone else’s intellectual property.

It’s exactly the same with books. I don’t have the right to take a copy of some book (lets say Harry Potter) and make copies of it and sell them or give them away.
The rights to that book belong to the author, and are licences through the companies she has instructed to distribute the books on her behalf.

Now it would be very easy for me to buy a e-book edition, break the copy protection on it (or ripp the binding on a printed copy and scann it it through a scanner, with text reccognition software)
I could then try to give away or sell copies of that book either as electronic or printed versions.

Im not a printer so I couldn’t sell the printed copies for less than the official versions, but the e-pup version would be very easy and cheap to distribute… That would be piracy. To do so would be Illegal, and would be stealing from the owner of the rights to copy and sell copies of that work.

Music and movies are no different than the book - (except the copyright protections only last a shorter time on recorded media)