Downton Abbey

[oldcelt]

On occasion this British serial confronts the issue of Catholic/Anglican animosity in the early 1900s. While it obviously does not go in to great detail, it is interesting to see the only openly Catholic character react to the challenges of the family he joined through marriage, particularly the raising of his infant daughter whose mother died in childbirth.

John

 

[DexUK]

It should be noted that the writer, Julian Fellowes, is a Catholic and, indeed, studied at Ampleforth, where once the late greatly missed Cardinal Hume was abbot.

Spoiler about the latest series to be broadcast in the UK:

I was struck by a storyline regarding abortion in the latest series and how it was handled and it was written well.

End spoiler.

It is very well written, and the episode with Tom and the baptism of his and Sybil’s baby was also well handled.

 

[oldcelt]

I wasn’t aware of Fellowes faith…thanks for the information. I’ve seen series four and I’m sure you will enjoy it. Different tone, but very enjoyable to me.

Be well.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I think there are subtle ways in which Catholic or at least general Christian themes are worked in. There seems to be a balance between good and evil and a leaning in favor of behaving well rather than behaving badly.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, and if it does, tell me to get lost and make my own thread, but in Season 4 there is more of a dark feeling at the beginning - dark in the sense of depressing, and then comes

{{{{SPOILER ALERT}}}}}

what happens to Anna Bates in Episode 2. I’d heard about it and wasn’t even sure I wanted to continue watching Downton, or wondering whether to skip that episode. But I did watch it and laying aside the question of whether it was “handled well” because that’s been discussed plenty, I just hope that good will triumph over evil for Anna and John Bates.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I think there are subtle ways in which Catholic or at least general Christian themes are worked in. There seems to be a balance between good and evil and a leaning in favor of behaving well rather than behaving badly.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, and if it does, tell me to get lost and make my own thread, but in Season 4 there is more of a dark feeling at the beginning - dark in the sense of depressing, and then comes

{{{{SPOILER ALERT}}}}}

what happens to Anna Bates in Episode 2. I’d heard about it and wasn’t even sure I wanted to continue watching Downton, or wondering whether to skip that episode. But I did watch it and laying aside the question of whether it was “handled well” because that’s been discussed plenty, I just hope that good will triumph over evil for Anna and John Bates.

Ep.2 triggered flashbacks for me, it also reminded me of the song Blurred Lines.

 

[Sarabande]

I think there are subtle ways in which Catholic or at least general Christian themes are worked in. There seems to be a balance between good and evil and a leaning in favor of behaving well rather than behaving badly.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, and if it does, tell me to get lost and make my own thread, but in Season 4 there is more of a dark feeling at the beginning - dark in the sense of depressing, and then comes

{{{{SPOILER ALERT}}}}}

what happens to Anna Bates in Episode 2. I’d heard about it and wasn’t even sure I wanted to continue watching Downton, or wondering whether to skip that episode. But I did watch it and laying aside the question of whether it was “handled well” because that’s been discussed plenty, I just hope that good will triumph over evil for Anna and John Bates.

I’ve only seen up to the last episode that aired on Sunday, but I was not prepared for episode 2. It was so upsetting, that I was shaking through to the end. They did the whole scene so well without having to show anything. I was listening to an interview on Fellowes and he was saying that he deliberately did not want any of what happened to Anna basically spelled out. You didn’t need to. You knew what was happening and it still punched me in the stomach.

I’m afraid that she will end up pregnant and there will be the issue of abortion. I’d like to see how Fellowes handles this. I’ve been pleased so far with how he has handled other issues throughout the series.

In regards to the OP, I agree it has been interesting watching an Irish Catholic commoner socialist handling his position in the family at Downton. It would be interesting to see if they have any focus on baby Sybil’s upbringing as a Catholic since she was baptised and her mother requested that she’d be raised Catholic even though she was not, herself. When I found out that Fellowes, himself, is a Catholic it made me more pleased to know that he was not going to put any anti-Catholic bias. He showed the anti-Catholic bias through the non-Catholic characters, but just by writing Tom in there as becoming part of the family and becoming accepted by those who were raised to not like Catholics, let alone the Irish, I thought that was very telling.

Fellowes also exhibited well the kind of bigotry people had for the Irish when Cora caught the nanny verbally abusing Sybil and calling her a cross-breed. Today, people often only think of racism or bigotry in terms of whites against blacks or other people of color. Many forget that the Irish were treated like they were the scum of the earth.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I’ve only seen up to the last episode that aired on Sunday, but I was not prepared for episode 2. It was so upsetting, that I was shaking through to the end. They did the whole scene so well without having to show anything. I was listening to an interview on Fellowes and he was saying that he deliberately did not want any of what happened to Anna basically spelled out. You didn’t need to. You knew what was happening and it still punched me in the stomach.

I’m afraid that she will end up pregnant and there will be the issue of abortion. I’d like to see how Fellowes handles this. I’ve been pleased so far with how he has handled other issues throughout the series.

In regards to the OP, I agree it has been interesting watching an Irish Catholic commoner socialist handling his position in the family at Downton. It would be interesting to see if they have any focus on baby Sybil’s upbringing as a Catholic since she was baptised and her mother requested that she’d be raised Catholic even though she was not, herself. When I found out that Fellowes, himself, is a Catholic it made me more pleased to know that he was not going to put any anti-Catholic bias. He showed the anti-Catholic bias through the non-Catholic characters, but just by writing Tom in there as becoming part of the family and becoming accepted by those who were raised to not like Catholics, let alone the Irish, I thought that was very telling.

Fellowes also exhibited well the kind of bigotry people had for the Irish when Cora caught the nanny verbally abusing Sybil and calling her a cross-breed. Today, people often only think of racism or bigotry in terms of whites against blacks or other people of color. Many forget that the Irish were treated like they were the scum of the earth.

Actually Tom’s an Irish Republican, not a socialist.

 

[Sarabande]

Actually Tom’s an Irish Republican, not a socialist.

My bad. For some reason I thought I remembered him being referred to as a socialist on the show, but it might have been purposeful slight made towards him.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I’ve only seen up to the last episode that aired on Sunday, but I was not prepared for episode 2. It was so upsetting, that I was shaking through to the end. They did the whole scene so well without having to show anything. I was listening to an interview on Fellowes and he was saying that he deliberately did not want any of what happened to Anna basically spelled out. You didn’t need to. You knew what was happening and it still punched me in the stomach.

I was able to get through it only because of kind of “desensitizing” myself - not in a bad way, just in a “taking it in small doses” way beforehand. I know people who have been through assaults and all we women live with the knowledge that it could happen to us. It constrains our lives in ways we sometimes take for granted, and it’s unjust that we should have to.

I’m afraid that she will end up pregnant and there will be the issue of abortion. I’d like to see how Fellowes handles this. I’ve been pleased so far with how he has handled other issues throughout the series.

Yes, unfortunately it would make for drama, both for its own sake and in the Bates marriage. So I could see it happening. On the other hand, Fellowes might avoid it because it might seem too predictable. Certainly I hope they don’t have abortion occur, even if it is brought up as a possibility. But in the time period it might be less likely to actually be followed through with - though who knows. Recall the soap incident with Cora and O’Brien - it could be something along those lines.

In regards to the OP, I agree it has been interesting watching an Irish Catholic commoner socialist handling his position in the family at Downton. It would be interesting to see if they have any focus on baby Sybil’s upbringing as a Catholic since she was baptised and her mother requested that she’d be raised Catholic even though she was not, herself. When I found out that Fellowes, himself, is a Catholic it made me more pleased to know that he was not going to put any anti-Catholic bias. He showed the anti-Catholic bias through the non-Catholic characters, but just by writing Tom in there as becoming part of the family and becoming accepted by those who were raised to not like Catholics, let alone the Irish, I thought that was very telling.

It may or may not be given a lot of attention as there seems to be plenty of subplot already about Tom Branson feeling like a fish out of water - he seems on the verge of possibly making a change. But we’ll see.

Fellowes also exhibited well the kind of bigotry people had for the Irish when Cora caught the nanny verbally abusing Sybil and calling her a cross-breed. Today, people often only think of racism or bigotry in terms of whites against blacks or other people of color. Many forget that the Irish were treated like they were the scum of the earth.

They were. And I imagine the prejudice lingers to this day. That Nanny was creepy and it was a pleasure to see Cora giving her what-for. I wonder if they’ll get a new nanny that will be a regular character and what subplots might be built around her.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

What episode was that in? I don’t remember it so evidently I need to rewatch the episode.

 

[Sarabande]

Ok… so I did hear it on an episode and it was Tom, himself, who said it. I’ve been tempted to watch all the seasons again from the beginning just to keep my memory refreshed. Maybe I’ll just do it.

 

[tomarin]

I’ve never gotten into this show … isn’t it just a big soap opera in historical dress?

 

[tomarin]

I wonder how Alan Moore would do as a guest writer on Downton Abbey …

 

[Sarabande]

Very interesting and informative! Thank you! I know only a little bit of this part of history, so I like to soak in as much as I can when I have the time, especially since much of my grandmother’s family was from Ireland and had come to the States in the 19th century, like so many Irish did at the time.

I like to play some of the quizzes they have for Downton Abbey, just for mindless fun and I thought it was funny that I ended up closest to Branson. My husband was most like Mrs. Hughes. lol!

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, you are right. There are some things in DA that aren’t truly realistic, at least from what I’ve read of the class system there. You did hear about things like wealthy, aristocratic women or girls running off with lower class people and vice versa, but it was a rarity. It is a much better program than a soap opera, though. Higher quality, better writing, better actors, etc. I’ve watched many of these actors in several BBC movies through the years. I hope that they don’t have too many seasons of this because the quality will invariably go down, but I think the British are better at knowing when to call it quits than the Americans do.

I was not alive when Upstairs/Downstairs was on, so I never actually saw that series, but it has been something I am interested in renting and watching. I just bought a history on the people downstairs called “Servants: A Downstairs History of Britain from the 19th Century to Modern Times.” I can’t wait to read it, but I have to finish my history on Jane Franklin (sister to Benjamin Franklin) first. That’s actually has been a good read so far if anyone is interested in 18th century life of the typical woman living in the colonies, mixed with history of Jane and Benjamin Franklin.

 

[tomarin]

Perhaps he would make the aristocratic gentlemen members of a secret Hellfire Club-type society. That traffics in white slavery or something.

 

[3DOCTORS]

IMO, one thing that tends to pull Downton Abbey in the soap-opera direction is the way the actors’ contracts run so that major characters end up getting killed - or having terrible reversals such as Anna Bates’ fate in Season 4 Episode 2.

After these things happen, the show has to regroup around too many radical changes. Season 4 may prove to be the testing year. The show could “jump the shark” if too many radical changes happen to main characters. However, setting it around WWI and into the 1920s, well, that was not exactly a time of stability in world history.

I wonder if they’re setting up for down the road with Lady Edith’s current love interest seeking to become a German citizen. Hoping that the show’s run will last up to the pre-WWII era, perhaps? I don’t see how it could run past that, though. British readers, help me out here. A place like Downton Abbey, could it and its way of life have survived WWII? My guess would be no.

 

[Sarabande]

IMO, one thing that tends to pull Downton Abbey in the soap-opera direction is the way the actors’ contracts run so that major characters end up getting killed - or having terrible reversals such as Anna Bates’ fate in Season 4 Episode 2.

After these things happen, the show has to regroup around too many radical changes. Season 4 may prove to be the testing year. The show could “jump the shark” if too many radical changes happen to main characters. However, setting it around WWI and into the 1920s, well, that was not exactly a time of stability in world history.

I wonder if they’re setting up for down the road with Lady Edith’s current love interest seeking to become a German citizen. Hoping that the show’s run will last up to the pre-WWII era, perhaps? I don’t see how it could run past that, though. British readers, help me out here. A place like Downton Abbey, could it and its way of life have survived WWII? My guess would be no.

Yes, I think one of the problems was that in one of the early interviews, the show was originally conceived to last only a season, thus all of the switch ups in the story line with characters. Some of the actors really were not expecting to be doing it for as long as they were.

In another interview I read, Fellowes wanted to set it in this time period because of the huge societal and cultural upheavals… some things we wouldn’t even think was such a big deal today. Even though some of the incidents seemed a bit out of the ordinary, it might not have resonated as much with with the modern day viewer with how much these changes in the world threw everything off kilter for those living in it, if they writers didn’t exaggerate things a bit, especially having it all happen within one family and one house. Losing Sybil, though, I don’t think was exaggerated. It was common to lose young women and even the infants during childbirth. Three of my grandmother’s aunts and their babies, for instance all died during childbirth in the early 1900s.

One thing they could do making it last through to WWII would be to just skip a few years for the next couple of seasons. In regards to a place like Downton Abbey surviving in the way it was after WWII, we have books like “Brideshead Revisited” that explored that part of aristocratic life and how much it changed. If it goes that far, it would be interesting to see. For Edith part of the story, I would like to see how they explore that, especially through to the 1930s. There have been stories of female ex-patriots who lived in Germany during that period for reasons like Edith’s situation.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I think it was losing Matthew on top of losing Sybil . . . not to mention that poor Edith has the worst luck with men . . . Sir Anthony Strallan and I would like Michael Gregson more if he weren’t trying to desert his wife even if she is incapacitated. The similar situation with John Bates seeking a divorce from Vera I could stomach better because of the unspoken probability that she was a con-artist or he was an alcoholic more when they were married - and that by the time he meets Anna, it would be like if he were Catholic, he could have gotten an annulment maybe. At least it seemed more like a case of his and Vera’s marriage possibly being invalid.

 

[Sarabande]

I think it was losing Matthew on top of losing Sybil . . .

Yes, definitely. I really don’t think they wanted to lose Matthew that soon, but he was given an offer he couldn’t refuse (I think he also has a family that he was thinking of from the interview I saw on this) and I guess you couldn’t blame him. Although, this was stable, at least for a few more years.

I think Matthew miraculously being able to walk again after his war wounds was the most far-fetched for me, but I suppose they wanted to put the drama in of whether he would be able to produce an heir, which was the focus of the show at the beginning. A different kind of wound and recovery would have been more believable for me. That said, I still loved the show.

…not to mention that poor Edith has the worst luck with men . . . Sir Anthony Strallan and I would like Michael Gregson more if he weren’t trying to desert his wife even if she is incapacitated.

Although I’m sad for Edith and her luck with men, it sadly does not strike me as soap opera-like. I know women in real life who consistently had horrible luck with men either due to a lack of judgement and they just don’t learn or plain old bad luck. I think Edith has both. She displays her weak judgment skills for the first time after the death of the Turkish embassador. Another time was when she kissed the married farmer. Her situation with Sir Anthony was bad luck. You are right, I would like Gregson more as well if he wasn’t so eager to toss his real wife aside and put Edith’s reputation on the line. The last episode also showed another moment of poor judgment for Edith and her Aunt Rosamund gave it to her.

The similar situation with John Bates seeking a divorce from Vera I could stomach better because of the unspoken probability that she was a con-artist or he was an alcoholic more when they were married - and that by the time he meets Anna, it would be like if he were Catholic, he could have gotten an annulment maybe. At least it seemed more like a case of his and Vera’s marriage possibly being invalid.

I agree. He wasn’t a Catholic, so beliefs were different and it just seemed that Mr. Bates and Vera Bates were not the best people, so who knows what went on with their reasons for getting married. Another difference was that Mr. Bates loved and respected Anna and would have never placed her in a compromising position.