Dr. Charles Stanley exclaimed: Purgatory is false!

[Nicea325]

No, I said if you can’t be purified here on earth-( i.e. we continue to sin up to the day we die) then what makes you think we will be any different in purgatory? There is a change that takes place after we die, purgatory or not!

Evidently you have the slighest clue about Purgatory as the majority of Protestants,since they reject it without really understanding it.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Yeah, I’m not even sure the “fire” is the same. The pain of the “fire” in purgatory is the full knowledge of how offensive our sins are to God and how we have hurt him, together with the longing to be one with Him. The pain of “fire” in hell is the complete loss of all hope; the knowledge that one has chosen for eternity a life without God; a life without Love; the loss of eternal happiness. In trying to express profound spiritual realities with human language we will always come up short.

Let’s put it this way. Imagine there are only two places, the Presence of God, and Deprivation of God. Imagine, too, that in order to get to the Presence of God, except for the case of a plenary indulgence, we have to travel through the place of Deprivation of God. For those souls who know they will someday reach the Presence of God, the suffering of deprivation is not as bad and for those souls who know they will never come to the Presence of God. For the first group, the place is Purgatory, but for the second group, the place is Hell. That’s how I see it anyway. Two places, three names.

If you stop and think about it, for many this world is a foretaste of Purgatory, and for many others, it’s a foretaste of Hell. At other times, earth may be a foretaste of Heaven. One place, three possibilities of perception. The difference I see is that when I suffer in this life, I have hope in the next, but the confirmed reprobate or atheist, when he suffers, he has no hope in the next.

When I suffer in this life, I can offer it up, turning my suffering into a joyful service to the Lord. I hope the poor souls in Purgatory can do the same, although they cannot pray for themselves.

 

[Nicea325]

Why was it good for them? It says that the fallen soldeiers were found wearing small images of the gods worshiped in Jamnia. Judas in his firm and devout conviction that all of God’s faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died.

So we know that these people were saved but they committed a grave sin of wearing images that weren’t of the true God. Judas did this so they wouldn’t lost their reward at the Bema seat judgement for their sin.

Judas didn’t pray to get them out of purgatory because they weren’t there, he pray not to count this sin against them so they wouldn’t lose any eternal rewards.

Really? They were not there? So in other words, Purgatory is an invention?

 

[SteveVH]

I just took the dog out. I had to pick up his “business” on the way home in a plastic bag. The thought occurred to me that compared to my sins, the odor of that stuff was so pleasing that the world’s finest perfume could be manufactured from it. That is how I view our sins-- horribly odious and preventing us from seeing God until they are completely eradicated from our existence. If it is difficult make up for our sins here on earth, how much more difficult do you imagine it might be in Purgatory where we cannot pray for ourselves and the only help we get is from others who remember us? I think Purgatory is a lot more than wiping our feet on the mat before we enter the house. We should take elimination of sin from our lives very seriously in this life, and not settle for just getting by. I guarantee you it is far easier here than there-- and how many think it’s easy here?

Very well said. You nailed it. When we fully realize how much we have offended God, even with the smallest of our sins, we will run to purgatory.

I had a priest who explained purgatory this way. A ditch digger is invited to his friend’s wedding. After work he hurries to the Church but when he looks through the window he sees the bride and groom and all their guests dressed in their finest clothes. He looks at himself, filthy with mud and grime, and realizes that before he can enter the wedding he first must go home, take a shower and put on his finest clothes.

You are correct, it is much more than wiping our feet on the mat. We must be cleansed completley and put on new clothes which will be the white robe of purification.

 

[berk60]

Evidently you have the slighest clue about Purgatory as the majority of Protestants,since they reject it without really understanding it.

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway? There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.

So if that happens to purgatory, then what?

Stick to what’s in God’s word and add nothing to it or take anything away and you’ll do just fine. We as mortal beings do not have the right to speak for God. Don’t you think?

 

[SteveVH]

Let’s put it this way. Imagine there are only two places, the Presence of God, and Deprivation of God. Imagine, too, that in order to get to the Presence of God, except for the case of a plenary indulgence, we have to travel through the place of Deprivation of God. For those souls who know they will someday reach the Presence of God, the suffering of deprivation is not as bad and for those souls who know they will never come to the Presence of God. For the first group, the place is Purgatory, but for the second group, the place is Hell. That’s how I see it anyway. Two places, three names.

If you stop and think about it, for many this world is a foretaste of Purgatory, and for many others, it’s a foretaste of Hell. At other times, earth may be a foretaste of Heaven. One place, three possibilities of perception. The difference I see is that when I suffer in this life, I have hope in the next, but the confirmed reprobate or atheist, when he suffers, he has no hope in the next.

When I suffer in this life, I can offer it up, turning my suffering into a joyful service to the Lord. I hope the poor souls in Purgatory can do the same, although they cannot pray for themselves.

Yes, I am just speculating. I don’t disagree with what you have stated. We have to keep in mind that purgatory is a state of being and not a place and so your analogy with the atheist who has no hope is spot on as that is his state of being; hopelesness.

 

[berk60]

Really? They were not there? So in other words, Purgatory is an invention?

Bingo. Who invented it? Look back into your church history. It wasn’t God

 

[Nicea325]

Bingo. Who invented it? Look back into your church history. It wasn’t God

No need, I have studied church history and I have yet to read of its invention. But Protestants as yourself make such a claim,thus tell me when,where, and by whom? Give names of the people responsible for inventing it?

By the way, if it is an invention, show me one ancient source of an orthodox Christian opposing it as unorthodox? Here I’ll give some help: One early church father.

 

[Nicea325]

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway? There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.

So if that happens to purgatory, then what?

Stick to what’s in God’s word and add nothing to it or take anything away and you’ll do just fine. We as mortal beings do not have the right to speak for God. Don’t you think?

No one understands it? Does every Christian understand the Trinity? Hypostatic Union? A lack of understanding does not deem it false. A place? Wrong! It is not a place but a condition. LOL! There’s no real of proof of it? A theory? Nice one. I do stick to God’s word and not some finite creature as yourself.

 

[SteveVH]

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

And?

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway?

The Jews, first. And then the same institution who told you that the Bible is the inspired word of God, the Catholic Church. If you cannot believe in the doctrine of purgatory then you cannot accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Both propositions came from the same source; the Catholic Church guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

As far as biblical evidence there is plenty, if one has not already succumbed to the pre-conceived notion that purgatory does not exist.

There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

There is evidence in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Proof? Can you give me “proof” of heaven?

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.

So if that happens to purgatory, then what?

Stick to what’s in God’s word and add nothing to it or take anything away and you’ll do just fine. We as mortal beings do not have the right to speak for God. Don’t you think?

Limbo has never been a doctrine of the Church. It is, as you say, a theological theory and it has always been understood as such. Purgatory, on the other hand, has been a doctrine of the Church since Apostolic times. That means it is revealed truth. Theories come and go. Doctrines can never and have never changed.

 

[aspirant]

I am speaking of them metaphorically.

Ah!

 

[pablope]

If you can’t be purified enough here on earth what makes you think that you can in purgatory?

If not in a purgation called purgatory…where do you think you will undergo this further purgation or cleansing?

Let me ask you…do you think if you die today…can you absolutely be certain you are clean enough to go directly to heaven?

And further…who is to judge your worth going to heaven…yourself or Christ?

 

[pablope]

No, I said if you can’t be purified here on earth-( i.e. we continue to sin up to the day we die) then what makes you think we will be any different in purgatory? There is a change that takes place after we die, purgatory or not!

When one has expired here on earth…is that soul still capable of sinning or not?

Is that soul still capable of asking for forgiveness or not? Of repenting or not?

 

[pablope]

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway? There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

 

[JamesCaruso]

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway? There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.

So if that happens to purgatory, then what?

Stick to what’s in God’s word and add nothing to it or take anything away and you’ll do just fine. We as mortal beings do not have the right to speak for God. Don’t you think?

Without arguing that it exists in the Word, and without arguing whether Tradition counts, or the visions of various saints, it only stands to reason that an unclean person cannot enter the very Presence of the Infinite God. Light cannot tolerate darkness. Imagine, if you will, that as we approach the Light with our all our darkness the Brightness of that Light burns away that darkness of ours, leaving only our cleansed spirits to commune with God. We know that letting go of our darkness here in this life is no easy matter. Why would we imagine that it is any easier as we approach the Throne of God? Does it happen in an instant? I think not, for justice’s sake for one-- there is no tolerable sin in the eyes of God. It demands a price against the contrast of eternal bliss that is ours for being so cleansed. Until we see ourselves as God sees us, filthy, but loved, we will have a hard time understanding the necessary process of purification.

 

[pnewton]

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.
?

Limbo was never a doctrine and neither has it become doctrine that it does not exist. It is, and always has been, in the area of speculation. A great deal of our understanding about the after life is speculation, as there is not a lot of information.

 

[JamesCaruso]

When one has expired here on earth…is that soul still capable of sinning or not?

Is that soul still capable of asking for forgiveness or not? Of repenting or not?

When we die, we still have free will. But if we go to heaven we are so wrapped up in God’s love that we simply will not want to sin, ever. Maybe that explains to some extent the reason for supposing a period of purification. For most of us, if we died right now and went to heaven we are still not convinced in every department of the horrible nature of sin. We, most of us, are only partially converted at any given time. When we reach heaven, we will be completely converted, that is purified, and God’s love will have the full effect of making us want to stay there with Him forever. And He knows just what that takes, since He can foresee the future and knows whether we are ready to fully and freely accept His Love for all time.

OTOH, when we die and go to hell it is because God can see that throughout all eternity we will never repent and become obedient to Him. He has tried to get us to convert repeatedly on earth, but our willfulness and pride resist His every attempt. He can see that we will never change our hearts for all eternity, else He would not let us go to hell. In effect we are saying that we love sin more than we love God. Like Pharaoh, we will never relent. We want what we want, and nothing but being allowed to sin will satisfy us. Too bad that sin will never satisfy us either, because we will spend eternity choosing sin over repentance and salvation, self over God and neighbor, evil over good.

A vision by a seer from a so far unapproved Marian apparition was given of hell. In it, souls were gathered around a fiery pit. One by one, they would dive into those flames and when they emerged, they looked like hideous creatures. The more they jumped into the flames, the more hideous they emerged. I took this to mean that their choice of sin to which they were so committed was the cause of their increasing ugliness but that they were so committed, so addicted, so weakened, that they would not, in a sense, could not, pull themselves away. Hell is an eternal commitment to choose something lesser than God.

 

[Reuben_J]

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway? There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.

So if that happens to purgatory, then what?

Stick to what’s in God’s word and add nothing to it or take anything away and you’ll do just fine. We as mortal beings do not have the right to speak for God. Don’t you think?

Purgatory understood by early Church Father:
Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

Although the word Purgatory is not found in the Bible it is nevertheless explained:
Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

From catholic Answer catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

 

[Deana83]

I remember reading in the Bible about the thief who was on a cross next to Jesus. He accepted him as his savior then and there. Jesus told him, “This day you will be with me in Paradise.” My question is, does this mean purgatory and paradise are the same? A place to clean up before you can actually be received in Heaven?

 

[berk60]

If not in a purgation called purgatory…where do you think you will undergo this further purgation or cleansing?

Let me ask you…do you think if you die today…can you absolutely be certain you are clean enough to go directly to heaven?

And further…who is to judge your worth going to heaven…yourself or Christ?

I am a worthless sinner and it’s only by the divine grace of God that I will be allowed into heaven. It is my belief that I will be allowed to go directly to heaven when I die not because I am clean enough but because Christ is. He died in my place on the cross paid my debt in full. I now live my life in service to him only by the Holy spirit that resides within me. The Lord has made me a new creation and given me a new heart and He abide within me. If he now abide in me through the Holy Spirit just as I am,why wouldn’t He allow me to live with Him forever in the next life. God never promised to only live in us when we are purified enough, He said he will make His home with us now and forever.