Dr. Charles Stanley exclaimed: Purgatory is false!

[CopticChristian]

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

The problem created by premises 1 and 2 are answered by the advocacy of Christ

East,

Since The Bible you have is a translation, and it was written in Greek…study your translation…

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

compare it to the Greek, including the tenses and then rethink what it is you think this means…

interlinearbible.org/1_john/1-9.htm

If we should confess the sins of us faithful he is and righteous that he might forgive us the sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness…

So in the Greek…how do you know “if” you have confessed all your sins just before you die? How do you know how faithful you are? The Greek says “he might forgive” and it says “he might cleanse us”…but it does not say when…

How can you be sure it is not after death?

 

[JustaServant]

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

**Scripture

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness**

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

continued…

 

[JustaServant]

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

continued…

 

[JustaServant]

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[CopticChristian]

Praise God for your faithfulness to His word. Here’s more from the word of God;

Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2*For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death

Berk,

Explain to me what this means to you…

How do you know you are in Christ Jesus?

What is the law of the Spirit and Life?

What is the law of sin and death?

 

[1answer]

interesting re quote,

How does a rich man serve God / sanctify the world?
Or do they have to sell everything to follow Jesus?

---

Always pray and have masses for the Holy Souls in purgatory. Our suffering on Earth is nothing compared to what they are undergoing.

1 Saint Gertrude Prayer only = 1,000 souls released.

 

[CopticChristian]

hello this is what Dr.stanley said

READ | 2 Corinthians 5:1-9

A great many people believe falsely in purgatory—a miserable place where people supposedly go after death. In order to advance to heaven, a person supposedly must either suffer long enough to make restitution for his or her sins or be prayed out by loved ones still living. The doctrine is an unbiblical lie, because purgatory is a thinly veiled second chance for people to get into heaven.

There is not a single verse with which to defend the false theology of purgatory. In fact, the very idea of a second route to heaven runs counter to God’s redemptive plan. Jesus Christ was the substitute for you and me, and His death paid our sin-debt. He obtained our eternal redemption with His blood (Heb. 9:12). If there is a place where people can go to suffer for their own sins—in other words, pay their own penalty—then God sending His Son to die makes no sense.

In John 14:2, Jesus told the disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for His followers. Nowhere in scripture do we find any mention of a detour into misery where we “earn” a pass into heaven. The Bible says that believers are either at home in the body, or absent from it and present with the Lord. There is simply no in-between stopover.

I respect the right to believe as one chooses. However, I have a responsibility to present biblical truth. Those who reject Christ get no second chance after death. They are eternally separated from God. But whoever receives salvation is completely forgiven of all sin and guaranteed an eternity with Him.

Toolbox,

Nor is there any verse to defend “The Bible alone”…now what?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I highly suggest the rhetoric is curbed and posts are made with respect to the other POV.
The forum rules are very simple to understand.

 

[Robyn_p]

Jesus died on the cross and took ALL our sin once and for all. All our sin debt was paid in full at the cross or it was NOT. Purgatory is; the denial of the truth that the death of Jesus on the cross paid our sin debt in full. It is a false teaching.
Why is it not in the Nicene creed three hundred years after Christ’s death ? Why did purgatory come to [light] 1,000 years after Christ’ s death ?
Christ was the FINAL sacrifice for our forgiveness , not a first step then to purgatory.

Actually sir, the doctrine of purgatory in no way denies what you just said above.

But let’s start with what purgatory is not. It is * not * some kind of second chance. There’s a misunderstanding that its either Jesus’ sacrifice or purgatory. Nope. Purgatory is only able to do anything for us * because * of Jesus’ sacrifice, because of his merits on the cross. The Catholic Church absolutely affirms and has always affirmed that Jesus’ sacrifice is the ONLY sacrifice that can take away our sins! I recommend reading the Catechism on justification, as it explains this better than I can.

But the problem is, how does Christ’s sacrifice get applied to our lives? All Christians, whether they realize it or not, believe that we have to cooperate with God’s grace in order for it to be effectual in our lives. Even people who hold to OSAS do, they say we have to accept Jesus into our hearts, which we do. So obviously, even though Our Lord’s sacrifice is sufficient, there still remains something for us to do, otherwise we wouldn’t even have to bother converting at all. We could just lead sinful lives because Jesus already took them away so it doesn’t matter anyway. But the bible couldn’t be clearer about that not being the case, we must cooperate with grace.

And it’s not just a one time thing either, all our lives we have to be constantly turning back to God, letting him purify us. The letter to the Hebrews, written TO Christians who were already saved but being tempted to go back to Judaism tells us to “Strive for the holiness without which * NO * ONE will see God.” (Heb 12:14) Huh? I thought Jesus’ sacrifice was enough?? Aren’t we already holy because of Him? Yes! But we have to cooperate with him in order for him to make us holy!!

But what happens if at the end of our lives we haven’t fully cooperated with him? But we do truly love him. The bible’s clear right here that if we dont have this holiness, we cant be in God’s presence, so for those whose process of purification isnt wholly completed in this life, yet they have not rejected God, there’s purgatory. It’s not an addition to Christs once for all sacrifice but an * EXTENSION * of it. After all, Jesus made clear that there are sins that can be forgiven in the next life (Mt 12:32) and St. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians talks about after death, people suffering loss for their imperfect works, yet they were still saved, “but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:15) If that’s not purgatory, I don’t know what is

Also, you said that because purgatory is not in the nicene creed it must not have been believed by early Christians. First, the Nicene creed wasn’t meant to be a complete thorough catechism of all we need to believe as Christians. It was written in response to the Arian heresy.
But actually implicitly, the doctrine is in the creed because in it it states we believe in the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church. If we believe in the Church, then we’ll believe everything the Church teaches, which includes purgatory.

 

[pablope]

hello this is what Dr.stanley said

READ | 2 Corinthians 5:1-9

QUOTE]
Then he got this wrong. The Church has never taught purgatory as a second chance.

Purgatory is a purification process, which has never been defined…for someone bound for heaven.

There is not a single verse with which to defend the false theology of purgatory. In fact, the very idea of a second route to heaven runs counter to God’s redemptive plan. Jesus Christ was the substitute for you and me, and His death paid our sin-debt. He obtained our eternal redemption with His blood (Heb. 9:12). If there is a place where people can go to suffer for their own sins—in other words, pay their own penalty—then God sending His Son to die makes no sense.

Sounds OSAS?

In John 14:2, Jesus told the disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for His followers. Nowhere in scripture do we find any mention of a detour into misery where we “earn” a pass into heaven. The Bible says that believers are either at home in the body, or absent from it and present with the Lord. There is simply no in-between stopover.

Then the question…is he correct in his interpretation?

I respect the right to believe as one chooses. However, I have a responsibility to present biblical truth. Those who reject Christ get no second chance after death. They are eternally separated from God. But whoever receives salvation is completely forgiven of all sin and guaranteed an eternity with Him.

Bible truth according to whom?

But how does one obtain forgiveness of one’s sins?

 

[pablope]

I understand what you are saying but what does this purification process consist of? The Bible says the wages of sin is death-I would assume the second death since we all die physically.

So is this purification process just separation from God for a spell or some form of punishment with fire as the rich man experienced as Jesus told of Lazarus And the rich man in Hades?

Purgatory Holy Fire by Scott hahn…this is an exhaustive explanation, from the OT to the NT:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

 

[pablope]

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

The problem created by premises 1 and 2 are answered by the advocacy of Christ

Your quote says…“if” we confess…so where does this state the manner of confessing? How is one to confess one’s sins, to be forgiven?

Can one be purified in one does not confess one’s sins?

How will Jesus advocate for you if you have not confessed your sins and been forgiven?

 

[CopticChristian]

Your quote says…“if” we confess…so where does this state the manner of confessing? How is one to confess one’s sins, to be forgiven?

Can one be purified in one does not confess one’s sins?

How will Jesus advocate for you if you have not confessed your sins and been forgiven?

Pablope,

Will an altar call, confessing with my lips and believing with my heart, be enough so I can be born again, and again, and again…or is it something else?

 

[kimg901]

So if we suddenly die and cant repent for our sins (if they are not mortal) what then? Is God going to condemn us because we used a curse word or gave someone the finger while driving? I dont think He would, He is merciful. So where else would we go if our soul is still in a state of sin? Purgatory seems like the place we will be before we enter our Lords Kingdom. Purgatory to me isnt that hard to understand

 

[GaryTaylor]

And “if” we do this according to those 4-Gospels and Paul.

No where from my casual Bible reading did Jesus state; Pray to me and I will forgive your sins. Now its far by me to suggest the most Holy Lord “can’t” safe me. But the “if” and “can’t” column seems a bit final with a definite question mark. That is being we all admit we are in fact sinners seeking admission into the Kingdom. That’s a “yet”. The fact that Christs Blood redeemed us is remarkable. Amen. But this nature of sin I find most perplexing with Biblical resolve. I think there’s a little more to this.

Now John as I was saying, states Jesus Christ “for sure”… “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” KJV John

The New and Everlasting Covenant. To a casual reader this would seem imperative.

 

[Doxiemom]

What the catholic church calls Purgatory is the Scriptual Judgement Seat of Christ, also call the bema Seat.

There is a fire and there is a purging, and the resulting purification.

The catholic church takes it to be a personal painful punishment that is to be endured and may last a long long time, to rid the soul of all shortcomings.

Others take the literal reading that the deeds done are represented by items like, paper, straw, stuble(useless, bad) or diamonds, gold, silver (useful,good).

The burnable is gone up in smoke and the rest is purified, the scum having risen to the top and dredged off. These are what is left, the purified stuff of your life and they are woeven into your robe or your crown.It is not painful. No pain is described. For sure, it isn’t easy to have itsome of it exposed. But then, all your sin has already been buried in the Sea of Forgetfullness , never to be rememered anymore. God said
d that…

That is why the pastor, and many like him, say there is no “purgatory” as the catholic church described. It is not called that in Scripture, nor is it a painful experience. Embaressing to stand there before Jesus, with His scars, oh, absolutley. But to have that bit of diamond, perhaps a tiny nugget of gold to have to be displayed on your crown, well well worth it. And I won’t. nor. God ever ever remember the ins i did. Yhey will have been washed away byt the sacrifice on the Cross.

Scripture rules.

 

[JamesCaruso]

This morning I was flipping through the channels and came across De. Charles Stanley (Baptist minister) who was saying the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is false. More important,what caught my attention is when he stated,the doctrine makes Christ death on the cross null or that it was not enough? WRONG!

It never shocks me to hear Protestants totally misunderstand the doctrine and one of the biggest reason is due to their interpretation of salvation.

The Bible is not open to private interpretation. It is obvious that if God made a religion He would want to make sure that it was true and free from error, and that it could teach authoritatively. He would have created a Church that could fill this bill and if you look around, the Catholic Church is the only one out there that purports to be the one, true Church free from error. All the various Christian sects have now gotten to the point where they say that no one church has all the truth. That’s because they cannot decide among themselves what the truth is in all things. They are as much as saying that the entire truth cannot be known and if that is true, there is no way to know what is true and what is false. Instead of painting themselves in the corner like they do, they should look up and see that the Church that Christ founded is still in existence and is still teaching the same doctrines it has taught since Christ founded it.

 

[bzkoss236]

That is why the pastor, and many like him, say there is no “purgatory” as the catholic church described. It is not called that in Scripture, nor is it a painful experience. Embaressing to stand there before Jesus, with His scars, oh, absolutley. But to have that bit of diamond, perhaps a tiny nugget of gold to have to be displayed on your crown, well well worth it. And I won’t. nor. God ever ever remember the ins i did. Yhey will have been washed away byt the sacrifice on the Cross.

Scripture rules.

It’s not called the Trinity in scripture either, nor is it explicitly written about as it is portrayed in Christianity, but I’m sure you would acknowledge it as it is described by the Catholic Church.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well I’ll tell you this. All of us agree we are Saved by Christs redemption. This was taken to a completely new level with the “miracle Bible”. And since Jesus can do anything, well that means you can do, well just about anything. OSAS, quick 1-minute sinners prayer and by the Blood of the Cross we are saved. Can I get an AMEN. No penance required.

I still want to have this dispensationalist conversation. I notice theres no lack of words with a captive audience.

 

[Robyn_p]

That is why the pastor, and many like him, say there is no “purgatory” as the catholic church described. It is not called that in Scripture, nor is it a painful experience. Embaressing to stand there before Jesus, with His scars, oh, absolutley. But to have that bit of diamond, perhaps a tiny nugget of gold to have to be displayed on your crown, well well worth it. And I won’t. nor. God ever ever remember the ins i did. Yhey will have been washed away byt the sacrifice on the Cross.

Scripture rules.

So do we agree then there is a period of purification after death before entering heaven? We just disagree on the particulars of what that may entail, am I understanding you correctly? That’s what I got out of your post but I hope I’m not misrepresenting you.

I believe it might actually be a pretty painful experience. But a good painful if you know what I mean. It’s painful even in this life to learn how to detach myself from things that keep me from God, I don’t see any reason why that would not happen in the afterlife if I still haven’t learned to love Him fully.

But also it’s sort of like when you’re finally exposed for who you really are to someone you love, with your warts and all. There is a sort of pain involved in that, at least it’s certainly not pleasant! But like I said, it’s sort of a bittersweet pain, because now you don’t have to pretend.

I hope that made sense, I’m pretty bad at explaining sometimes.

But I think you should know the Church doesn’t actually have any official teaching on what purgatory is like, only that it exists. So perhaps we’re not in as much of a disagreement as it might seem!