Dr. Charles Stanley exclaimed: Purgatory is false!

[Aaron_Creagh]

Wrong! Dr. Stanley is wrong and the CC is not saying that his death on the cross was not 100% effective. Wrong again! There exist verses inferred to purgatory. Your denial of it just like so many Protestants does not change an iota. No different than Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses denying the Trinity and Christ divinity.

If there is a purgatory…it would have to be here, in this world, as it exists.

 

[JamesCaruso]

If there is a purgatory…it would have to be here, in this world, as it exists.

Then it wouldn’t be purgatory, because purgatory a state for souls, without bodies, after death.

Here are some interesting excerpts I ran across:

It is agreed, however, that the greatest suffering endured by the Holy Souls is not caused by fire but by the pain of loss. For when the soul leaves the body in a state of grace, it automatically and overpoweringly conceives an intense desire to be with God and do His will. However, at the same time, it sees its sins and faults in full detail. And so it “would rather,” as St. Catherine of Genoa puts it, “fling itself headlong into a thousand hells rather than to present itself before God with any stain.”

At this point, the departed soul is almost torn in two. On the one hand, it sees that “there are no gates to heaven, and that as far as God is concerned, those who wish to enter may do so.” But on the other hand, it realizes for the first time in its life the gravity of its sins and how much it has offended God. This condition produces in the soul an all-consuming hunger for God.

St. Catherine of Genoa explains their hunger by using the following analogy. “Let us suppose,” she says, “that there was only one loaf of bread in the world. Further, (let us suppose) that even the sight of this one loaf would (be enough) to satisfy the hunger of every person on earth… Now the souls in purgatory have the certain hope of seeing this unique loaf and of satisfying their hunger.” But they cannot eat it because they are too sick with sin.

The entire essay here → opusangelorum.org/formation/purgatory.html

 

[CopticChristian]

If there is a purgatory…it would have to be here, in this world, as it exists.

Aaron,

Why would it have to be here?..this Protestant disagrees with you…

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1592869/posts

After his horrifying brush with death the concept of purgation was explained to him by a priest, says Reverend Storm, and “just rang so clear to me in my experience.”

He says that when he “died” he was taken through a “foggy” region strikingly similar to what has been described in mystical literature [see An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory] – and also similar to descriptions by modern visionaries who have told of a great “gray” area between hell and heaven.

Although a devout Protestant, Storm says that he considers Catholicism “the Mother Church” and is even interested in the Catholic apparition site of Medjugorje. He says God doesn’t want division and that the main reason why he was on the road to hell was lack of love, pride, and disbelief.

or

articles.latimes.com/1995-10-20/news/ls-59038_1_intermediate-state

One of the first to broach the subject in modern times was author C.S. Lewis. “Our souls \o7 demand\f7 Purgatory, don’t they?” he wrote. Even if God doesn’t mind people entering Heaven dripping with "mud and slime . . . should we not reply . . . ‘I’d \o7 rather\f7 be cleansed first.’ [Even if] it may hurt. "

More recently, evangelicals have warmed to Kreeft’s speculations on the next world. A onetime Protestant who converted to Catholicism, Kreeft places Purgatory inside Heaven and says, echoing St. Catherine of Genoa, that any pain felt there is “incomparably more desirable than the most ecstatic pleasures on earth.”

That portrait isn’t much different from what some leading evangelical scholars call the “intermediate state” between death and Paradise, says Gary R. Habermas, a philosophy professor at Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University

or

randalrauser.com/2011/06/purgatory-for-protestants/

Purgatory, boiled down to essentials, is constituted by the following claim:

(1) the process of sanctification in the regenerate continues posthumously.

That’s it. All you need for purgatory is (1). You can always add additional claims like “this posthumous process of sanctification expiates the guilt of sin” but a claim like that is not essential to the doctrine of purgatory.

There is no inconsistency between the core claims of Protestantism and (1). Therefore, it follows that Protestants can accept a doctrine of purgatory.

Must you be correct or may you rethink this?

 

[just_came_back]

If you remember at the time of Martin Luther, there were abuses concerning indulgences. For one thing, they were being sold for money, and for another, some churchmen promised the gullible faithful false benefits from the indulgences, such as perpetual happiness in this life and assurance of salvation in the next. Indulgences as we know them today, and as Church teaching has always accorded them, are cancellations of temporal punishment still due for sins that have already been forgiven. Certain prayers and blessings carry with them indulgences, and plenary indulgences require confession and communion, like the Pope’s recent Bible Papal blessing. Luther was upset with the profiteering going on around the sale of indulgences, and one of his thoughts on the matter was that the Pope had no authority to grant indulgences and that justification was by faith alone. This for all intents and purposes, the way I understand it, wiped out the need for a purgatory in his eyes; i.e., if you’re justified by faith alone, there’s no need for anything further. Luther made the Bible primary, and said that he would only obey the Pope if it agreed with the Bible. I think this may be the origin of denying the existence of purgatory in the Protestant churches.

I have heard it said that at the final Judgement the leaders of the reformation would be held to the STRICTEST of judgements based on what happened as a result of this. The laypeople themselves in the centuries to follow would not receive the brunt as the orginiators themselves would.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have heard it said that at the final Judgement the leaders of the reformation would be held to the STRICTEST of judgements based on what happened as a result of this. The laypeople themselves in the centuries to follow would not receive the brunt as the orginiators themselves would.

JCB,

Would that suggest Luther may be in Purgatory?

 

[JamesCaruso]

JCB,

Would that suggest Luther may be in Purgatory?

Who knows what a day in purgatory is compared to a day on earth? Anyone not declared a saint may still be in purgatory. OTOH, some leaders of the Protestant Reformation may have entered heaven centuries ago. This is all pure speculation.

 

[just_came_back]

JCB,

Would that suggest Luther may be in Purgatory?

Of course. I’m sure there are some Popes in Purgatory still to this day.

 

[CopticChristian]

Of course. I’m sure there are some Popes in Purgatory still to this day.

JCB,

Wow, can you imagine the turmoil if Luther and Popes were in Purgatory together…whao…

 

[JamesCaruso]

JCB,

Wow, can you imagine the turmoil if Luther and Popes were in Purgatory together…whao…

I guess they’d have to work it out before they can leave [Pope Leo X and Martin Luther, that is]. Which one do you think would get to heaven first? Don’t answer that! Just kidding.

 

[PJM]

=Nicea325;10529872]This morning I was flipping through the channels and came across De. Charles Stanley (Baptist minister) who was saying the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is false. More important,what caught my attention is when he stated,the doctrine makes Christ death on the cross null or that it was not enough? WRONG!

It never shocks me to hear Protestants totally misunderstand the doctrine and one of the biggest reason is due to their interpretation of salvation.

YEP

When you get One doctrine wrong; you often get them all wrong.

Let US pray for them

 

[Aramis]

JCB,

Would that suggest Luther may be in Purgatory?

Martin Luther may in fact be in hell - he did break his Solemn Promises to God both publicly and flagrantly… Both celibacy and obedience. If he didn’t repent those prior to his personal judgement, he might not have been given the chance. Plus, there is the issue of the sin of schism.

I hope he isn’t hell-bound, but it’s a very real possibility.

 

[PJM]

=joemf;10573468]Keep in mind neither Jesus nor his apostles inferred a purgatory. They taught only heaven or hell. Jesus(as recorded in Jn.5:24) said that “he that hears and believes…has(present) everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” Now, I would think He would’ve mentioned anything as important as an ’ interruption in time’ for purification if it existed… Two points: either the Holy Spirit guided the word “has” meaning “now possesses” everlasting life or He didn’t. Many other verses such as ll Cor.5:8 only point to two locations for the soul…either here, or with the Lord. What Dr. Stanley was relating was the fact that either Christ’s blood fully accomplished our positioning in heaven, or it didn’t (and something else was needed–which would mean the cross was not 100% effective for that purpose).

Friend, I fear you mis the critical point.

The Apostles are Jews and ALL jews were aware of a third state. Poved by 2nd. Mac. chapter 12.

MANY things are not recoded on the bible as John points out in the endings of chapters 21 AND 22.

Why would they make a big deal out of this. IN THE END it will be just Hell and or Heaven.

ALL in Purgatory ARE Heaven bound; just delayed in thier getting there:thumbsup:

 

[JamesCaruso]

Martin Luther may in fact be in hell - he did break his Solemn Promises to God both publicly and flagrantly… Both celibacy and obedience. If he didn’t repent those prior to his personal judgement, he might not have been given the chance. Plus, there is the issue of the sin of schism.

I hope he isn’t hell-bound, but it’s a very real possibility.

Conscience.

 

[JamesCaruso]

ALL in Purgatory ARE Heaven bound; just delayed in thier getting there:thumbsup:

Yes, and they are unable to pray for themselves, and so, may remain suffering there for a very long, long time if we do not pray for them. The good nuns taught us to pray for the most lost soul in purgatory. Can you imagine that our deceased relatives are there and they are suffering intensely only because we are too preoccupied with our earthly lives to pray for them. I wonder if the same thing will end up happening to us… just saying?

 

[PJM]

=joemf;10581920]I feel you’re both correct! I believe it’s a contradiction in terms–your purgatory, his judgement seat of Christ where our good/bad will be judged w/ our ‘bad’ “being burned,yet we will be spared” as scripture says. You have an excellent point however in that most evangelicals still support the view that according to 1Tim. and other passages which list qualifications for elders,shepherds etc… would disqualify him due to his divorce. If I recall I saw an article where his son(Andy) and he parted company over the issue.( Andy feeling he should’ve stepped down). I also feel he should have stepped down.

Joe,

Dear friend,

You seem not to understand thatb sins have two natures [1 John 1:8-10 & 1 John 5:16-17]

God being perfect can’t Juge all sisns as being equal. Further, God’s Love is exceeded only by His Mercy and because hunmanity ALONE was Created with the ability and potential to Know, Love and Glorify God; God’s mercy created purgatory to enable those who die W/O Unconfessed and Actualy [really] unforgiven MORTAL sisns [John 20:19-23]
could also be perfected [a necessary condition for the Beatific Vision] and enter Heaven and Thus be enabled to WORSHIP God for Eternity. Thus fulfilling the REASO for their Creation.

**Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: **“every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

Purgatory is an absoutely necessary creations of God’s PEREFRECT Mercy:thumbsup:

 

[Deana83]

This verse has been discussed much especially as a support to rebut the existence of purgatory; that if one believes and repents one will go to heaven, no intermediary place is needed.

My personal view, the thief would be taken to heaven without going to purgatory since Jesus said so. This is exactly the point about purgatory. Not everybody would go to purgatory but not everybody would go to heaven too, remembering that nothing unclean will go there.

The forgiveness given to the repentant thief really showed the mercy and love of God; and nothing should be taken away from that. How we wish that we all will be like the repentant thief. Yet we know that the situation does not always represent itself as the same with the said thief. There are still people who believe that may not quite live up to the standard of repentance required by God but they are not too bad either. We know that these will not go to hell nor they can be in heaven immediately without being purified first.

God bless you in your RCIA.

 

[Deana83]

Thanks Reuben. I like your personal opinion- it makes sense…