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Ahimsa
Guest
Do refugees from TEC find a refuge in United Methodism, or some other Wesleyan group?
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Teflon93
Guest
I know I did, for a time. The trouble is that a lot of United Methodist churches have gotten far astray from traditional Methodist liturgy.
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mgrfin
Guest
Hey, Accounting was invented in Italy.
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Teflon93
Guest
I would hope Accounting is infallible, but more often than not it’s simply of a Tradition of Man.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Would that be a “no”?
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mgrfin
Guest
Well, Double entry Accounting WAS invented by the Italians - no kidding. And according to my Professor at NYU, it is infallible.Would that be a “no”?
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Wow! That blog is long and many folks there were slugging it out as if there were no tomorrow. I was particularly alarmed at the historical gymnastics to which White has stooped.
And I am also thunderstruck that someone who is for all intents and purposes in the academic community and in the community of Jesus could descend to so much shameless one-upmanship as White has done. A one-upmanship which points, for me at least, to nothing more than envy: the hyperbolic posturing of the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail.
It seems clear that some thought Professor Beckwith naive to think that he could simply check in with a long-time friend and colleague, set the record straight, get closure, that sort of thing – the assumption among some of those blogsters seemed to be friendship last, polemic first.
If it had been me in the eye of the storm, I can honestly say that I would have been deeply wounded, not by the disagreement, but by the exploitation of a personal decision by the politically-minded such as White (and others who have yet to show up). Astonishing behaviour.
As for White: he just keeps piling it on, reminding me of the kind of person who can’t have a disagreement without dragging everybody and his dog that ever existed into the fray, boisterously declaiming “An’ anothah thing…” Akin himself says that it was this very penchant for overdoing it that got White into trouble in the Akin-White debate.
So many times I have seen ‘ecumenical discussions’ in the media where the priest waits til last and very patiently, quietly, simply states the Church’s position and leaves it at that. White, on the other hand, does not seem to know when enough is enough. He has to have the last word (which he rarely, if ever, manages). He has to beat the dead horse.
Debate is about topic. Why can’t White concentrate on a topic instead of wandering all over the map, whacking the living daylights out of the map while he’s at it? The latter behaviour is about impressing the naive, imposing one’s claim for intellectual superiority on the vulnerable and suffering.
And it is about prioritizing being correct over being just; for to be just is to be both correct and merciful, is it not? Is that not the Cross right there?
Honestly, I say if White wants his debate, then let him have his debate. Let’s get this thing done. And let’s see White cross the Tiber too. For, me thinks the lad doth protest way way too much. He has repeatedly put himself in the path of Catholicism and that tells me that he is moving closer and closer to Rome.
Since the name of Catholic Answers seems consistently to be dragged into these polemics, I would like to see Catholic Answers apologists set the record straight. And may the topic be: How Do We Read the Church Charitably?
And I am also thunderstruck that someone who is for all intents and purposes in the academic community and in the community of Jesus could descend to so much shameless one-upmanship as White has done. A one-upmanship which points, for me at least, to nothing more than envy: the hyperbolic posturing of the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail.
It seems clear that some thought Professor Beckwith naive to think that he could simply check in with a long-time friend and colleague, set the record straight, get closure, that sort of thing – the assumption among some of those blogsters seemed to be friendship last, polemic first.
If it had been me in the eye of the storm, I can honestly say that I would have been deeply wounded, not by the disagreement, but by the exploitation of a personal decision by the politically-minded such as White (and others who have yet to show up). Astonishing behaviour.
As for White: he just keeps piling it on, reminding me of the kind of person who can’t have a disagreement without dragging everybody and his dog that ever existed into the fray, boisterously declaiming “An’ anothah thing…” Akin himself says that it was this very penchant for overdoing it that got White into trouble in the Akin-White debate.
So many times I have seen ‘ecumenical discussions’ in the media where the priest waits til last and very patiently, quietly, simply states the Church’s position and leaves it at that. White, on the other hand, does not seem to know when enough is enough. He has to have the last word (which he rarely, if ever, manages). He has to beat the dead horse.
Debate is about topic. Why can’t White concentrate on a topic instead of wandering all over the map, whacking the living daylights out of the map while he’s at it? The latter behaviour is about impressing the naive, imposing one’s claim for intellectual superiority on the vulnerable and suffering.
And it is about prioritizing being correct over being just; for to be just is to be both correct and merciful, is it not? Is that not the Cross right there?
Honestly, I say if White wants his debate, then let him have his debate. Let’s get this thing done. And let’s see White cross the Tiber too. For, me thinks the lad doth protest way way too much. He has repeatedly put himself in the path of Catholicism and that tells me that he is moving closer and closer to Rome.
Since the name of Catholic Answers seems consistently to be dragged into these polemics, I would like to see Catholic Answers apologists set the record straight. And may the topic be: How Do We Read the Church Charitably?
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Contarini
Guest
On the conservative Anglican blogs, almost no one seems to be talking about going in that direction. I’m one of the very few who is, and that’s because I come from a Wesleyan background and my wife and parents are Methodists (I guess my daughter is too, since she was baptized in the Methodist church by my father-in-law, who is a Methodist minister). Generally I think conservative Anglicans are wary of United Methodism because they see it as having all the problems of the Episcopal Church with much worse liturgy. Most conservative Anglicans are either Anglo-Catholics (who would go to Rome or the East if they ceased to be Anglican), Calvinists (who would obviously not want to be Methodist), or charismatics. There is no good reason I can see why one can’t be Anglican and have basically Wesleyan theology–I find the two traditions extremely compatible. But for whatever historical or sociological reason, most Anglicans don’t take the Wesleyan tradition too seriously. There is a lost of snobbery involved, but that’s not all of it.
Edwin
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Contarini
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Yes, he did, and that is annoying.
Fair enough. I remember him saying “evangelicals” more often, but it doesn’t much matter.
I just explained why I thought he did–because they had just discussed Purgatory and he brought up indulgences in that context. He clearly admitted that he knew Purgatory was about temporal punishment. But perhaps I’m giving him too much credit.
You know, there is nothing forcing you to be snippy and rude. I did listen to the program and I said exactly what you just said. I’m not sure what you think we are disagreeing about. Beckwith expected it to be a friendly discussion, but there is no way an ex-Catholic with strong Protestant beliefs was going to let this happen. Koukl was at fault for not being clearer with Beckwith about that. But would you let someone come on a Catholic radio program you hosted and talk about how they had discovered the Gospel in Protestantism, and never challenge them?
My point is that Prof. Beckwith, much to his credit, was unaware of how big many Protestants see the Catholic-Protestant divide to be. Unfortunately, if he hangs out on this board he will see that many Catholics are just as defensive. No doubt you will have fun educating him.
Well, that’s too bad for you. Actually I was partly thinking of political issues, since that’s been one of Beckwith’s main concentrations. But more broadly I was thinking of natural-law philosophy, ethics, etc. Linked to politics but not identical.
Generally in academic circles there isn’t a lot of Protestant-Catholic tension. Liberal Catholics and liberal Protestants get on well, and conservative Protestant intellectuals generally find a lot in common with orthodox Catholics. There are exceptions of course, but this is the general rule. Even in my field of Reformation scholarship, where people are far more conscious of the Protestant-Catholic division because they study it for a living, this is true. One of the world’s two or three experts on the Protestant Reformer Peter Martyr Vermigli is a Catholic priest. The best book on martyrdom in the 16th century–about as touchy a subject as you can get–was written by a Catholic, but I could not tell his affiliation from reading the book, and the book stirred up controversy along lines that had absolutely nothing to do with Protestant-Catholic divisions (more people who want to read the sources respectfully vs. people who think that secular theories explain what the sixteenth-century folks were really doing without realizing it).
The world of Protestant-Catholic apologetics and polemics is a small, stifling, narrow world. You need to take a breath of fresh air occasionally. I hang out here because I study the Reformation and I’m obsessed by the Protestant-Catholic division. But when I turn my computer off I walk out into a world where there are a lot more important dividing lines than the one running between Western Christians of the Roman obedience and those who derive from the Reformation. I’m sorry if you don’t live in that world as well.
Edwin
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Jeanette_L
Guest
Dr. Beckwith,
I am not an apologist, a scholar or an intellectual in any way, shape or form. I am just a fellow convert who understands the emotional mixture of both joy and pain in Crossing the Tiber. There are days that you sometimes want to curse God for asking this of you, and just a moment later, praise Him with great joy that bursts from deep within you for even allowing you to see what you never imagined to be true.
And then there’s the pain for those precious friends that you are just now coming to realize you have left far behind, a pain that just never seems to go away. You want so much for them to experience the freedom and supernatural rest that comes from having made this journey home.
I am thrilled for you in your homecoming! I will pray for your continued strength in all that you will endure for His sake over the coming weeks and months. I can’t even begin to imagine the cost, but He can and will make it up to you a hundred fold.
God Bless,
Jeanette
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Teflon93
Guest
I think you are—Koukl rather clearly implied (at least to my ears, your mileage may vary) that indulgences were a respite from spiritual punishment. It is a common Protestant misunderstanding stemming from Lutheran propaganda.
If I invited them there under the pretense of sharing their conversion story, I would let them share it versus repeatedly interrupting them with Protestant theological talking points. It was supposed to be a discussion, not an intervention. It speaks poorly of Koukl that he did what he did, which is snippier and ruder than asking you if you listened to the program when that very point was covered and contradicted you.
Well, you’re certainly educating me on snippy rudeness, aren’t you?
All very nice, but Beckwith is an academic and I’d be more interested in how the folks at his university responded to his conversion.
Well, at least you’re not snippy and rude, right?
Note the sleight of hand involved in lumping apologetics and polemics together. Perhaps one would be less obsessed with a rather more clear understanding of the difference between the two, and an ability to discern one from the other?
You learn a lot during the religious conversion process, and one of the things you learn is that some Christians are simply jersey-wavers who resent anybody leaving their team to play for another. And one of the ways you learn it is when you tell them about your conversion and they use it as an occasion to stage your intervention.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Ok, you have NO ROOM to talk. Remember that thread a month ago at that other foum? I asked you like 5 times in a row to provide proof for an outrageous claim you made regarding converts, it was utterly laughable the way you refused to answer. The thread was called "The Tide is turning’ and here are some most memorable posts:
Jay29: The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism
Atemi:LOL. Wake up, sleepyhead.
Obviously, you are totally out of touch with what “tide” means.
You call a trickle a “tide.” That is quite humorous, but I understand that you must blindly cheerlead even if it means promoting falsehoods.
You may not like the flood of Catholics abandoning the false system, that is fine, but making believe that that has actually reversed is foolishness that speaks to the lengths some Catholics will seek to boast.
Catholic Dude:I have yet to see a solid set of testimonies of Catholics who converted to Protestantism for doctrinal reasons…the same cannot be said of people like Scott Hahn and Robert Koons (conservative Lutheran who wrote a 95 page apologetics document on why he converted).
The dance is over, your gig is up. You can keep pretending you are defending a unified front, your “side” is bitterly divided on almost every issue and is full of holes.
I DARE you to read Robert Koons’ writing on why he converted, it is online for free. I read it and enjoyed it.
Atemi:LOL.
Leave it to a Catholic to only accept a testimony and witness that equals 95 pages of text! Sigh.
I know of testimonies that barely complete one sentence that Koons could not touch.
Catholic Dude:What are you talking about? Have you read the 95 page defense he made? Or are you one of those lazy cheap shot Protestants who can dish it out but is either too lazy or afraid to do some real reading?
Go ahead and post a few of these “one sentence” silver bullets. At this point I predict either you will flee the scene, or will post something that is so laughable that it will get me through the day with a smile on my face…go ahead and post it if you got it.
Dude:I have given you 3 days now to respond Atemi…are you going to or was I right in guessing you would flee the scene?
Dude:Going to respond any time soon?
Dude: crickets chirping
Thats all you got…and this isnt the first time you have spewed out stuff like this and then fled once I demanded proof.
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Fidelis
Guest
"This endless bickering is pointless – Vader, release him!"
–Tarkin, The Empire Strikes Back
–Tarkin, The Empire Strikes Back
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Teflon93
Guest
Call no man Vader.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Luke, I’m your Vader. I’ve come to vash your vindows.
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zemi
Guest
I’ve got a question stemming rfom the debate.
If Beckwith as a Protestant “put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”
and later on in his life went to Confession and converted what was his “salvation status” so tu put it until the Confession? Is it true as he said that only God knows (according to how he lived and acted according to his conscience)?
If Beckwith as a Protestant “put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”
and later on in his life went to Confession and converted what was his “salvation status” so tu put it until the Confession? Is it true as he said that only God knows (according to how he lived and acted according to his conscience)?
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mgrfin
Guest
I’ve got a question stemming rfom the debate.
If Beckwith as a Protestant “put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”
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mgrfin
Guest
I’ll take a crack at the answer:I’ve got a question stemming rfom the debate.
If Beckwith as a Protestant “put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”
God is the final decider of our ‘salvation status’, regardless of our actions.
But, when there is the Sacrament of Penance involved, we can say this: The sacraments operate ‘ex opere operato’. So if he confessed his sins, and received absolution in the Sacrament, his sins have been taken away. He then has to undertake acts of repentance to take away the penalties for these sins.
The last case is asking God for forgiveness, that he was sorry because he offended God who is deserving of all good, he is in the same situation as the above.
If he is sorry for his sins for lesser motivation, when that is more difficult to discern.
The Catholic has no OSAS doctrine to fall back on, but he does have confidence from the Sacrament of Penance. His conscience helps a great deal in determining what is sinful for him, but we are talking about where we already have determined in our case that sin has been committed.
mgrfin
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Contarini
Guest
Actually, the sleight of hand is labelling whatever your side does as “apologetics” and whatever the other side does as “polemics.” Note that you guys always talk about “Catholic apologists” and “anti-Catholics,” never “Protestant apologists” or “anti-Protestants,” even when you are making outrageous allegations about Luther or raking up the 30,000 denominations figure for the 30,000th time.
I’m not sure why you have taken offense at my original discussion of the debate. However, you are right that I’m to blame for responding in kind.
I would have to go back and listen again to the debate to know if Koukl showed surprise at the notion of temporal punishment, and frankly it doesn’t matter that much. I still think that he made a good point about the conflict between indulgences and the standard defense of Purgatory (I say this as someone who believes in Purgatory but not in either indulgences or Koukl’s version of justification by faith), and that’s what interests me in that particular bit of the debate. I am not defending Koukl’s treatment of Beckwith, but he’s to be commended for at least having Beckwith on the program. When was the last time you heard an ex-Catholic telling his or her conversion story on EWTN?
Edwin
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Atemi
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