Dr. James R. White

[Cachonga]

twf, I left the Catholic Church after being raised in it and living it for over 33 years. Sola Scriptura played a very big part in my leaving the church. I did spend some time in a “Bible believing, born again” Evangelical Christian church, and I agree there are a lot of problems in those churches. However, just because someone claims to be a Bible believing Christian doesn’t mean they are. I find a lot of the “popular” ministers to be fine examples of Peter’s warning about ignorant and unstable men twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction. However, just because someone abuses the Scriptures does not negate the fact of Sola Scriptura.

You are correct, it is a topic for another thread. I have discussed this before, and do not wish to do so again (at least, not at this time).

 

[steve-b]

I’m sure alot of you saw the title and are probably wondering “WHAT in the WORLD?” But my question is this. With so much knowledge and background that he has regarding the bible, AND with other evangelicals converting to the faith, why is it that he is, I guess you could say, still stuck? I mean…I just saw a youtube video on a guy who was an evangelical for 35 year and explain why he became Catholic. You would think being knowledgeable he would convert to Catholicism. Anyway…can anyone explain why that is?

Some people just like to argue.

IMV, Paul had the perfect answer for this in his letter to Bp Titus

Titus 3:10-11​

10 As for a man who is factious, in the Greek, Heresy / divisive./ schism αἱρετικὸν after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.

 

[ziapueblo]

Even IF Sirach was Scripture

It’s not? It is in my Bible.

My question about Sola Scripture is always this. Using the Bible and the Bible alone, where do you find the Bible alone?

ZP

 

[Isearch]

Nothing is asked of him, there is no petition made to God through him, and yet this is supposed to be Scriptural support for the practice?

I know that most Roman Catholic apologetics tend to overemphasize the intecessory aspect of invoking the Saints when dealing with common Protestant objections, but this is sometimes unneccessary. Invoking the Saints can be done out of veneration alone.

 

[commenter]

However, just because someone abuses the Scriptures does not negate the fact of Sola Scriptura.

Actually, it does.
If you are limited by Sola Scriptura, you can’t tell what’s an abuse of SS, and you can’t refute the pastor down the street who calls your interpretation an abuse.

Sure, there are various systems for “rightly dividing” the Bible. But even people relying on context and other internal safeguards often refute each other.

They, including Dr White, unconsciously rely on the template of the magisterium to some extent. They rely on its NT canon. When a few SS churches stray really, really far from the magisterium template, quoting Scripture all the way, the majority of other SS churches label them as “cults”.

Today, most Protestants (even Dr. White) would likely say they themselves are closer to RCC than to the Sola Scriptura “cults”. But without a magisterium, the SS churches that are (for the moment) labelled (or libelled) as cults can accuse the Baptists, Methodists, etc of abusing Scripture. Who is to say they are wrong?

 

[anrmenchaca47]

As to why Jesus would use this phrase, Scripture doesn’t tell us.

So we agree that things not explicityly said in scripture doesn’t mean extra-biblical right? Because you are correct, scripture doesn’t tell us.

What Scripture does make clear is that Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8)

I don’t argue this point. I agree with you here.

so I don’t believe He changed in any way because of Mary’s intercession (not then, not now, not ever).

His hypostatic nature allows him to do so. Even at the request of his mother.

Here you are ignoring the Kingship of Jesus

Sorry but I am not ignoring his Kingship. and yes God established his plan before the foundation of the world. I agree.

Can you say that Mary didn’t bring it to His attention a few minutes before He was supposed to do what He did?

I kind of see your point here so I’ll answer with this…Mary DID bring to his attentions minutes before otherwise he would not have said “My hour has not yet come” to indicate that his ministry was not ready to be made manifest, but at the request of his mother he did so.

Jesus would have begun His ministry on time regardless of Mary’s intercession

How can one be certain here? How do I know he would have started. Even though he is God, he still did as his mother asked. and going back again to what he said “My hour is not yet come” shows that he knew what his purpose was but began it at the request of his mother.

 

[anrmenchaca47]

Isn’t that honoring to Mary?

The whole purpose of this discussion is to show that Mary, being the Mother of God, has a special role in intercessions which would most likely bring us to another topic of discussion about the “dead” listening to prayers, however I can already see that is already starting to web out into another topic plus this probably has already been done here on the forum. ITo answer your question yes I honor Mary because she is my mother. At the foot of the cross Jesus makes this statement “26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother ‘Woman, behold your son!’ 27 Then he said to the disciple ‘behold your mother’ and from that hour the disciple took her to his own home” (John 19-26,27 Ignatius Study Bible)

Why did Jesus tell the disciple whom he loved, “Behold your mother?” Thats not his mom and they weren’t blood relatives. Why make Mary John’s mother? Jesus, while dying on the cross entrusted his mother the disciple whome he loved to care for. As catholics we welcome her into our home and lives and pray for her help. She in turns, like she did at the wedding at Cana, tells us to “do as he says…”

As are all true believers.

True those who believe in Christ are blessed…but all didn’t give birht to the one true God. The word made flesh.

True, but why would Luke 1:42 the only time Mary was blessed? Seems a very weak argument for a Church that believes in “excess merit”.

You forgot this one “For he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden, For behold all generations will call me blessed,…” (Luke 1:48)

This comes from the Council of Nicea (really), and was meant to say something about Jesus, not to elevate Mary.

Sorry this one was from the Council of Ephesus 431 regarding Theotokos. It wasn’t elevating her…just stating the obvious.

If God can forgive a sinner like Peter, Paul, or even me, why couldn’t He also forgive Mary?

If God could take Elijah up body and soul, then why wouldn’t he be able to keep Mary from original sin? You can’t put limits on God.

You’re relying on philosophy more than theology, and I would assert that is a dangerous thing to do.

I like to put the two together. Kind of like oral and written traditions like the ones St. Paul preached. Besides St. Thomas Aquinas was very well versed in theology and scholastic philosophy. Summa Theologia is a great example of the two.

 

[steve-b]

Have you ever listened to any of his debates with Catholic apologists? James clearly knows the Catholic position, and is able to cite from, and refute, official Catholic sources.

And I’ve never heard White, justify his man made religion from the 17th century.

Cachonga:

The Catholic apologists give shallow, weak arguments, and in some cases resort to ad hominem accusations.

that’s talking about White.

Cachonga:

It seems that most Catholic apologists debate more to impress their support base than to prove the Catholic faith is the true faith.

Again you’re describing White’s approach to impress his base, which historically we know to be an invention by John Smyth inventor of the Baptist religion

Cachonga:

For the record, I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and received 6 of the 7 sacraments of the church by the time I was 30. God delivered me out of the Catholic church a few years after I was married. My brother has tried to get me back, and that’s how I discovered James White (that’s a story in itself).

God doesn’t deliver, / divide anyone from His Church. That would be a gross contradiction of Jesus prayer. Jesus insists on perfect unity within His Church and with Him. HERE

As Paul warned the Church of Rome about those who cause division from Our Lord’s Church (looking ahead in time…E Orthodoxy, Protestantism etc)

Making the following points crystal clear

1. People who divide from Our Lord’s Church don’'t serve Our Lord but themselves
2. They are to be avoided because they do evil
3. The God of peace will soon crush Satan (the cause of all division) under whose feet? The Church of Rome.

From:

Rom 16: 17 I “appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites,[b] and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.”

What are the consequences for such division for those who do it?

HERE (Gal 5:19-21]

Note That the word for [Division / dissension διχοστασίαι]( , http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm )in the Greek, for both Romans and Galatians is the same Greek word. And the consequence for one who remains in that sin? They won’t inherit heaven [Gal 5:21].

 

[De_Maria]

I agree with the other two responses. All that we can do is plant and water, God makes the growth.

If I could add my own 2 cents, though. I think that those who convert to Catholicism are they who learn, by the grace of God, to check their brain at the door. In other words, they learn humility.

Many people condemn the idea of “blind faith”, but I don’t think that Jesus did so. I base that opinion on these words:

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And, personally, I felt as though I “checked my brain at the door” when I came into the Catholic Church. I made the decision to do so because I finally realized that the subject matter was so far above my ability to completely understand it. I finally realized the meaning of these words:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[De_Maria]

Have you ever listened to any of his debates with Catholic apologists?

Yes.

James clearly knows the Catholic position, and is able to cite from, and refute, official Catholic sources.

Basically, he handles Catholic Doctrine the way he handles Scripture. By his own personal interpretation. It is in line with the idea of Sola Scriptura. But Sola Scriptura is not in line with Scripture.

The Catholic apologists give shallow, weak arguments, and in some cases resort to ad hominem accusations. The best debates (imho) were with the priest, Mitch Pacwa. It seems that most Catholic apologists debate more to impress their support base than to prove the Catholic faith is the true faith.

The Catholic Faith needs no defense. The New Testament was written by the Catholic Church. Protestants who argue against Catholic Doctrine using the New Testament, are simply twisting the true meaning of Scripture.

For the record, I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and received 6 of the 7 sacraments of the church by the time I was 30. God delivered me out of the Catholic church a few years after I was married. My brother has tried to get me back, and that’s how I discovered James White (that’s a story in itself).

God did not take you out of His Church. The Enemy did so. God speaks through the Catholic Church.

 

[De_Maria]

anrmenchaca47:

Also, can you give examples of these?

Sorry this is taking so long. Lots of things to go through (even found a new debate I hadn’t heard before). I’m not done looking up examples, but a quick example is as follows –

In the Great Debate I (Gerry Matatics, 1996) on the topic of the Marian doctrines, Gerry (and I’ve heard Tim Staples and others use this example as well) uses the example of Solomon and Bathsheba as an anti-type of Jesus and Mary. He points out that Bathsheba doesn’t get her request, and just dismisses this as the imperfection of anti-types.

Is Adam and anti-type of Jesus? Adam sinned, Jesus did not. So, do you deny that Adam is an anti-type of Jesus?

However, it seems to me that as soon as Bathsheba made her request, Solomon understood 2 things very clearly. 1) She was making the request on behalf of someone else. 2) To grant the request would endanger his life, his mothers life, and his kingdom. At that point, Solomon had to stop being the son of Bathsheba, and be the King of Israel, making a just declaration and condemnation of his half-brother.

But did Solomon remove the Queen’s throne from the right hand side of his throne? Did Bathsheba remain the QueenMother? Yes or no?

IF Mary could hear prayers and make petitions to Jesus on behalf of those who pray to her,

She can.

wouldn’t Jesus know who the request was for, and what the result of granting the request would be?

Sure. What’s the point? Have you ever read this in Scripture?

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame…

Did God know what the Rich man was asking for? Why did the Rich man address Father Abraham instead of God?

And if Father Abraham can hear and grant prayers, why can’t the Mother of God?

Why would Solomon be wise enough to put off sonship and put on kingship and pass a just sentence, and Jesus is expected to just bow to Mary’s request regardless of the consequences to His divine and perfect will?

Says who? Have you not read in Scripture that Mary is the person who is most conformed to God’s will?

Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How many more examples do you want?

As many as you can dream up.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

With so much knowledge and background that he has regarding the bible, AND with other evangelicals converting to the faith, why is it that he is, I guess you could say, still stuck?

An even more startling example would be the case of Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman. Not only was he brilliant with regard to Catholic teaching and Protestant teaching, he also led a holy life of monastic asceticism while yet a Protestant! Not something we see very often together these days. It took several years of interior questioning and re-evaluation, before ever so slowly, deliberately and prayerfully he converted to Catholicism.

It was such a fascinating occurrence, that his book Apologia Pro Vita Sua was an immediate best-seller in his own time.

Another great (and modern) example is Scott Hahn, along with many of his colleagues, who were devout, dedicated Presbyterians. Again, they have books that detail the event like Rome Sweet Home (by Hahn), Surprised by Truth by Patrick Madrid, and many more convert stories.

It seems like the constant in all of their stories is a dedication to the Truth (wherever it leads) a humble and consistent viewpoint. IOW, they aren’t all over the map with inconsistencies and bold prejudices.

 

[Cathoholic]

Cachonga . . .

Have you ever listened to any of his debates with Catholic apologists? James clearly knows the Catholic position, and is able to cite from, and refute, official Catholic sources. The Catholic apologists give shallow, weak arguments, and in some cases resort to ad hominem accusations. The best debates (imho) were with the priest, Mitch Pacwa. It seems that most Catholic apologists debate more to impress their support base than to prove the Catholic faith is the true faith.

For the record, I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and received 6 of the 7 sacraments of the church by the time I was 30. God delivered me out of the Catholic church a few years after I was married. My brother has tried to get me back, and that’s how I discovered James White (that’s a story in itself).

Actually Cachonga. I think it is the other way around.

Concerning White “knowing” and articulating the Catholic position, sometimes he gets it right, sometimes he gets it wrong.

Sometimes his “knowing” does not seem to match up with proper “articulation” of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that Jesus founded (That’s the Catholic Church).

.

The Catholic apologists give shallow, weak arguments, and in some cases resort to ad hominem accusations.

This is what I think about White.

I recall listening to Matatics demolish White on the “Once Saved, Always Saved” issue. I took notes on both debaters and all Biblical citations.

When I went back and examined it, if I recall correctly, Matatics had over twice as many Biblical citations, and handled them much better than White as well.

For the record, I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and received 6 of the 7 sacraments of the church by the time I was 30 (and even younger). God kept me in the Catholic Church by His great mercy and grace.

When younger I went to Baptist ecclesial communion, Baptist Sunday School, Baptist youth group, Baptist Bible camp. I thank God, that these things were used by God in my life to draw me deeper into the Catholic Church!