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Mikaele
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What do you know of the Christian apologist James White?
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MarcoPolo
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He runs Alpha & Omega Ministries out of Arizona, I believe. He is heavily involved in the debate arena. Probably 30 or more of the debates he’s done is versus Catholics. He adheres to Calvinistic beliefs as near as I can tell. He believes he is undefeated in debates against Catholics (will link to PhilVaz’s site for reference when he’s back up). His sister is Patty Bonds, who is a convert to the Catholic Church and has appeared on shows like The Journey Home.
Personally, I find his analytical skills most underwhelming. Often he will center his debate around a single Greek word in a passage. Problem is, even when you agree with the possible definitions of the word he gives, you disagree with his application of that definition. His debate on Sola Scriptura and 1 Cor 3:15 come to mind regarding the Greek words for “sufficient” and “suffer loss,” respectively. For example, the crux of what he will say can be summarized as: “This Greek word means suffer loss, therefore there is no evidence for Purgatory in this passage.” It doesn’t make sense, but you can find and hear the debate for yourself. In his follow up to the latter debate, White made an ad hominem attack against me personally on his radio show.
This is Patrick Madrid’s follow-up to the Sola Scriptura debate, which tells you a little more behind-the-scenes about White and some of the “sources” White used in that debate. Jimmy Akin wrote a blog article “James White has completely lost it” a couple years ago too. Akin has a number of articles about White that cover some of what he’s said.
Personally, I find his analytical skills most underwhelming. Often he will center his debate around a single Greek word in a passage. Problem is, even when you agree with the possible definitions of the word he gives, you disagree with his application of that definition. His debate on Sola Scriptura and 1 Cor 3:15 come to mind regarding the Greek words for “sufficient” and “suffer loss,” respectively. For example, the crux of what he will say can be summarized as: “This Greek word means suffer loss, therefore there is no evidence for Purgatory in this passage.” It doesn’t make sense, but you can find and hear the debate for yourself. In his follow up to the latter debate, White made an ad hominem attack against me personally on his radio show.
This is Patrick Madrid’s follow-up to the Sola Scriptura debate, which tells you a little more behind-the-scenes about White and some of the “sources” White used in that debate. Jimmy Akin wrote a blog article “James White has completely lost it” a couple years ago too. Akin has a number of articles about White that cover some of what he’s said.
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Robbinson
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Having listened to a number of his debates and read some of his books, he is an intelligent and sincere Christian who believes in Reform/Calvinistic theology. I don’t agree with him on numerous doctrines of theology and his teaching is diametrically opposed to Catholic doctrine on many core doctrines.
I believe the Akin/White debate is actually from the early or mid 90s (though it is being remarketed now). I don’t know if there have been more recent debates with Tim Staples, Jmmy Akin and/or Patrick Madrid (or other Catholic apologists).
Blessings,
Brian
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Cachonga
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Actually, Dr. White did an on-air debate with Tim Staples on purgatory on Jan 28 of this year. He has encouraged CA to make the audio available, but I have yet to see it offered here. The Jimmy Akin “debate” was a BAM radio program from more than 10 years ago, and Mr. Akin actually had more air time than James White (I wouldn’t consider that a real debate). There are comments you can look over here (I recommend paying attention to comment #36).
(BTW - while it is true that James White does not have a PhD (Doctor of Philosophy), he does have a ThD (Doctor of Theology), so it is appropriate to address him as Dr.).
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awatkins69
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Dr. James White is one of the better debaters amongst protestants. He is wrong, but he is one of their better minions. Robert Sungenis is better. Look them up debating on youtube.
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Robbinson
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Thanks for the link and cite to the debate comments. Ultimately, its not a question of debate or debating skills -Dr. White is a great debater indeed. Its a question of authority. “If” one believes in the doctrine of apostolic succession, then the Catholic interpretations both harmonize with scripture and tradition and make sense. “If” one rejects the doctrine of apostolic succession, then Dr. White’s interpretations are “fair ones” (in many cases, “great ones”) (as are those differing opinions of many of the 40,000 plus other denominations among protestants).
This is because, contrary to the common assertion of bible alone Christians, scripture does not interpret itself. I’ve heard Dr. White debate other protestant denomination pastors and/or teaches - sometimes with success, and sometimes with not as much success - because there is always some basis behind a sincere Christian’s interpretation of scripture.
“Tradition” (which is the historical teachings of the Church based upon the teachings of the Apostles) would, in fairness, be just one other of these possible sincere interpretations if not authoritative. However, this begs the larger question of the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is scriptural support for it - but also, historical writings of early christians, which testify to its acceptance by the early church.
I noticed your “Religion” as former Catholic - that’s interesting to me as I am a “former evangelical” who became Catholic. There is wonderful diversity within the body of Christ - but Jesus prayed for Unity in the body - and I believe that without the doctrine of apostolic authority, we can’t help but be fractured, no matter how sincere.
I do enjoy listening to Dr. White - he is a sincere and scholarly student and teacher of scritpure - as we all should strive to be.
Blessings,
Brian
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vladimir998
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Well, I know his sister, Patty Bond, became a Catholic and has since been referred to as only “Mrs. Bond” by her brother.
White is one of the better Protestant apologists, but he also does things that seem dishonest. I always think of this comment from Robert Sungenis when he worked for Catholic Answers:
“(P. S. Sorry, but that doesn’t include you, James White, until you finally produce the citations of the four Fathers prior to 400 who identified Jesus, to the exclusion of Peter, as the Rock of Matthew 16:18.)” catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9606fea2.asp
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Cachonga
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So what? I left the Catholic Church, so does that say something bad about my brothers and sisters that are still in the church? I think not! James is not responsible for his sisters actions any more than my family is responsible for mine.
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Cachonga
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U P D A T E ! ! ! The article you linked to was written in 1996. I would suggest that either the information was provided or Mr. Sungenis forgot about it, because he did at least 3 more debates with James White (1999 in the Great Debate IV on Long Island; topic was “How biblical and ancient is the mass?”, 2000 in the Great Debate V on Long Island; topic was “Justification by faith”, and the last one (I don’t have the date or location) on the topic of “Is the Roman Catholic mass a propitiatory sacrifice?”, there is at least one other debate of unknown date and location on “Papal infallibility”). In all, I have found 5 debates between Robert Sungenis and James White, and you can purchase the audio here (look for 459mp3 - Is the Roman Catholic mass a propitiatory sacrifice, 464mp3 - Boston College Papacy debate, 483mp3 - How biblical and ancient is the mass?, 491mp3 - Justification by faith and 493mp3 - Papal infallibility). Oh, and don’t forget, this is an “anti-Catholic” site (maybe Mr. Sungenis offers these debates as well).
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Catholic_Dude
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Here is a Catholic response to some comments White made a month ago. I see them as very problematic to his position, though I’ve yet to see any response/clarification:
catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/04/rebuttal-of-james-whites-analysis-of-my.html
catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/04/rebuttal-of-james-whites-analysis-of-my.html
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MarcoPolo
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Good link. From Nick’s blog:*In his introductory remarks White asserts that I (likely) haven’t read or in some way ignored his two main books on this subject, The God Who Justifies (TGWJ) and The Roman Catholic Controversy (TRCC). The truth is, I own both books and have read them in their entirety. *White did the same thing to me that I linked to in my first post. For his audience, he creates a fictional caricature of Catholics who rebut him, claiming they “don’t read/listen” to what he’s actually said or wrote. Now that I’ve seen him erroneously do this to Nick also, I am seeing a pattern. In fact, Nick’s article is the exact kind of detailed rebuttal of White’s claims that do not fit with White’s fictional caricature of the brainwashed Catholic apologist who parrots and does not think.
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inkaneer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladimir998
Well, I know his sister, Patty Bond, became a Catholic and has since been referred to as only “Mrs. Bond” by her brother.
Originally Posted by vladimir998
Well, I know his sister, Patty Bond, became a Catholic and has since been referred to as only “Mrs. Bond” by her brother.
SO WHAT??? I’ll tell you so what. Referring to his sister only as Mrs. Bond tells me he has disowned her. He no longer accepts her as his sister. She is now alienated from he and his family. Now, you may have a different opinion than me but I find his actions to be totally unchristian. When my aunt decided to become Pentecostal she was still addressed as Aunt Mary by her Catholic nieces and nephews. Her sisters and brothers still referred to her by her first name not her married name. We even allowed her to bring her minister to family events. There was no hostility to her as James White expresses to his own sister.
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inkaneer
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Having discussed doctrinal matters with different protestants on different forums I have come to the conclusion that many of the protestant debaters are definitely anti Catholic. I am well aware of what Bishop Sheen has said about people being opposed to what they wrongly think is the Catholic Church but there is an anti Catholic spirit being fostered in the new fundamentalist denominations [Shades of Jack Chick and Lorraine Boettner]. I recall that the favorite tactic of Jimmy Swaggert whenever contributions were down was to launch into an anti Catholic tirade for a couple of sermons and the money would flow in. During his “crusades” the largest audience response came after his Catholic bashing. Jimmy, of course, had his own problem exposed and is no longer the TV Evangelist he once was [He does have a program on one of the cable religious networks] But in his footsteps have come others seeking to carve out their own mega ministries.
In a way we should maybe feel grateful. The Church has always been at its best when under attack. And just reading the news it is clear it is under attack.
In a way we should maybe feel grateful. The Church has always been at its best when under attack. And just reading the news it is clear it is under attack.
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Cachonga
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If you care to check out what Dr. White had to say about his sister (see here), you’ll see that she was the one who seperated herself from the family years before her decision to join the Catholic church. As to why he calls her “Mrs. Patty Bonds”, I don’t know; it’s not my place to judge (although you seem comfortable doing just that). If you do bother to read what he wrote, you will see that he has never denied to discuss things with her, but has treated her fairly and with the same love he would show for anyone else (that should be obvious from his response to her first (anonymous) email to him). Be that as it may, I still believe that bringing her up as an arguemnt against James White shows a lack of good arguements against what he actually has to say.
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CastingCrown
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I’m Catholic, but I do really enjoy listening to Dr. White.
He is also my go-to guy for understanding Reformed Theology.
I particularly enjoy watching his videos on Islam - his material has made up the majority of my formation with regards to Islamic Apologetics (to which, of course, I have added some Catholic goodness).
Even though he has questionable use of the Early Church Fathers, he does at least know about them and reference them (a rarity in the Protestant world). It is a little ironic that he uses the Fathers when speaking to Muslims about historic Christianity…
He is also my go-to guy for understanding Reformed Theology.
I particularly enjoy watching his videos on Islam - his material has made up the majority of my formation with regards to Islamic Apologetics (to which, of course, I have added some Catholic goodness).
Even though he has questionable use of the Early Church Fathers, he does at least know about them and reference them (a rarity in the Protestant world). It is a little ironic that he uses the Fathers when speaking to Muslims about historic Christianity…
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MarcoPolo
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Here are a few more articles offering detailed rebuttals to some of White’s stuff:
An Exchange on Mary, Another Redeemer? between James R. White and William Possidento (from 2000)
An online chat exchange with James White (also includes James White’s AOMIN assertions that he has never lost a debate to Catholics, which I promised in my first post) (from 1995)
Refuting James White on Pope Honorius (This Rock, 2001)
Jimmy Akin’s response to James White’s book The Fatal Flaw (This Rock, 1993).
I’m going to repost Catholic Dude’s article from Nick rebutting James White on sola fide because I thought it was excellent and is newer for those who fancy that. (from 2010)
Dave Armstrong rebutting James White’s argument for sola scriptura regarding Moses’ seat.
An Exchange on Mary, Another Redeemer? between James R. White and William Possidento (from 2000)
An online chat exchange with James White (also includes James White’s AOMIN assertions that he has never lost a debate to Catholics, which I promised in my first post) (from 1995)
Refuting James White on Pope Honorius (This Rock, 2001)
Jimmy Akin’s response to James White’s book The Fatal Flaw (This Rock, 1993).
I’m going to repost Catholic Dude’s article from Nick rebutting James White on sola fide because I thought it was excellent and is newer for those who fancy that. (from 2010)
Dave Armstrong rebutting James White’s argument for sola scriptura regarding Moses’ seat.
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MoreCoffee
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Why? Doesn’t the credibility of the institution that issued the degree have significance? Exactly where did the ThD that you mention come from?
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inkaneer
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Me judging? I just find it odd that one refers to his sister by her married name and not by her first name. I know a lot of families who have experienced relationship problems but I don’t ever recall any of them referring to a blood related family member except by their first name. As for the URL you posted that is, of course, Mr. White’s side of the story. But he acknowledges the fact that his sister decided to stay out of the apologetic arena. That tells me she is not doing this for ulterior motives but rather from a sincere desire of the heart. It also gives Mr. White license to spin the story as he wishes. For one of his immediate family to forsake Mr. White and his preaching and to convert is obviously not helpful to Mr. White. One also might wonder what went on before as Mr. White acknowledges that His relationship with his sister was strained before. As for Mr. White’s other comments they appear to be self grandizement aimed at his fold, sort of PR damage control. I note that more than one person has commented on Mr. White’s demeanor which may be why Scott Hahn refuses to deal with him. You, though, appear to be enamored with him.
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Cachonga
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I believe the work he has done more than justifies his doctorate. People get “Honorary PhD’s” in recognition of their work and nobody questions the validity of that. Dr. White has authored several books (some of which have endorsements from Roman Catholic apologists), and has debated Muslims, Mormons, athiests, etc., etc., so I would assert that his body of work more than justifies his ThD. Of course, you may disagree, but that does not diminish the work he has done.
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Cachonga
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Do you know why he addresses her that way? I don’t. He hasn’t gone into detail about that (as far as I’m aware of). Does that mean it’s OK to “speculate” about it and, based on that, pass judgement on his character?
And you’ve already made up you mind, so don’t bother hearing the other side of the story, right?
I suppose the active influence of Stever Ray is irrelevant to you?
Like the way some RC apologists have done?
As a minister of the Gosple, I’m sure it’s difficult for him when anyone who actually belongs to his family (church or otherwise) turns from the truth, but as he pointed out, she left the family years before, so I don’t see the problem that is being foisted upon him.
So you’re going to use speculation to judge his actions, is that it?
As far as me being “enamored” with him, I do not agree with everything he says. I am interested in the truth, and in a fair and honest evaluation of any given topic. You have made up your mind about Dr. White in regards to his sister without even considering his side of the story, and when that was presented to you, you dismissed it (or used part of it to justify your preconcieved assesments of his character). And now, because you apparently lack a sufficient rebuttal to what I have presented, you are now directing ad hominems toward me. If that’s the best you can do, I don’t think Dr. White has anything to worry about.
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