Dr.John MacArthur Attacks the Church

[JamesG]

I was wondering if anyone could help me refute this video. A relative of mine has posted a link to this video on her facebook page. I’d like to formulate a response to this person via a long email.

youtube.com/watch?v=Db-i73Znh2M

Here are some of the claims.

1. Forced Celibacy lead to sexual deviation.
2. Under the Cardinals residence is one of the largest gay bars in Rome.
3. Pope Benedict XVI resigned because it was the only way to clean out the Vatican corruption.
4. Catholic’s exalt Mary over Christ and god.
5. They re-sacrifice Christ at the mass.
6. False forgiveness of the confessional.
7. Infant Baptism is useless.
8. People give money to the church to buy their dead relatives out of purgatory.
9. You can buy your own way out of purgatory.
10. They worship idols.
11. Prayers for the dead are wrong.
12. The pope is a usurper of Christ over his church.
13. The papacy is the Anti-Christ.
14. The pope can’t ever make a mistake (infallibility).
15. Pope John Paul II is not in heaven (faith alone doctrine).
16. Quotes the Council of Trent (6 session chapter 16) Cannon 9, 11, 12, etc.
17. The roman system is a replica of the Pharisees.
18. Paul acted without Peter’s (the pope) authority.
19. There is no link between Peter and every pope.
20. Large chunks of time when there was not a pope (4 century, 7th century, 11th century, 15th century)
21. The history of the church is a mess and that invalidates it.
22. The catholic church is a gigantic system of church worship, sacrament worship, saint worship, Mary worship, image worship, relic worship, priest worship, pope worship. (quotes J. C. Ryle)
23. The pope wears a jeweled crown worth millions. The cardinals garb is worth tens of thousands of dollars. etc… It’s a pompous display of wealth that covers a sinful system that seduces and it’s Satanic.

 

[pablope]

I was wondering if anyone could help me refute this video. A relative of mine has posted a link to this video on her facebook page. I’d like to formulate a response to this person via a long email.

youtube.com/watch?v=Db-i73Znh2M

 

[GEddie]

If item 2 were true, it would have appeared on the travel channel.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

Item 23.

A jeweled crown worth “millions” would be too heavy for the human neck!

And I’ve no doubt that Cardinals’ official garb is quite expensive. That is because it is delicately tailored, and the demand for such garments is small. I have heard of shoes for priestly vestments costing 400 euro, for the same reason.

In any case, expensive clothing for someone serving the Church in a highly visible capacity is not something to criticize. The world would see something amiss if they wore blue jeans and black t-shirts.

Even our LORD’s seamless robe that He wore to His death (before being denuded), was a better than average garment.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Zachary]

Many on that list are just heresay or opinion.

It’s certainly a “hall of fame” or “best of” list. Pure nonsense, of course, but funny seeing them all together like that.

#2 is very cute…like it proves anything…heck, there are sewer pipes beneath my house. Doesnt make me full of $&%!

 

[gam197]

If item 2 were true, it would have appeared on the travel channel.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I find myself wondering why publicly-posted smears like that don’t run afoul of “hate speech” and libel/slander laws. People are entitled to their own religious beliefs, but they’re not free to make patently false and slanderous statements about others. As the saying goes, people are entitled to their own opinions; they’re not entitled to their own facts.

 

[ajcstr]

1. The catholic church is a gigantic system of church worship, sacrament worship, saint worship, Mary worship, image worship, relic worship, priest worship, pope worship. (quotes J. C. Ryle)
   .

I hope he never sees this picture - even our statues worship statues !!!

 

[ajcstr]

1. Pope John Paul II is not in heaven (faith alone doctrine).

Give me a break, I would be curious to see how many of these pastors, etc would have chosen a religious life if they had to take vows of poverty and chastity. (And just because he never saw John Paul during his many visits to heaven does not mean he is not there!)

But seriously, I’m sure the catholic answer site can address each of these ridiculous claims, just search on them one at a time - they are not new (except #2, he would have to have been there personally to know that).

 

[Avila123]

Don’t be surprised if you get a rabid rant back. Every so often I accidentally stumble across vitriolic attacks on the Church and sometimes other religions and denominations. If evidence is offered, often it is minimal or not understood or checked.

Based on my limited experience, I have been moving towards the opinion that these people (irrespective of belief, denomination etc):

1. Do not research beyond the limits of their self belief or what they are told.
   2, Do not accept or recognise that anyone who does not agree with them is a true believer.
2. Could be too busy enjoying adoration from their followers.
3. Understand that they draw people away from Christ through undermining a delicate faith or by showing a face of Christianity that is not Christian.
4. Have little respect for the dignity or efforts of others.
5. Lack genuine loving kindness.
   or, more often than not:
6. Are poorly educated in Scripture (historical context, language, links between Old and New Testament e.g. not able to use faith and reason together. And
7. Not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit as intended by God.

I find it very sad that we can so easily fall into the trap of doing the exact opposite of what Christ taught us. It is more repugnant, when I have fallen, even if it is only in thought. Using the Hide button gives the appearance of maintaining a dignified silence, whereas the reality is a private ranting, repentance and much praying.

If you do decide to go ahead, I would suggest a period of quiet prayer to discern if you should respond, and if so, further prayer for guidance on providing a response that combines loving kindness, gentleness and clear evidence. More prayer for strength and courage to deal with the response, or if there is silence, for restraint and trusting in God to take action. Plus prayer for the person and your relative (whatever the motive behind their actions).

This is just my small offering to the discussion.

May God bless you.

 

[chefmomster2]

i hope he never sees this picture - even our statues worship statues !!!

 

[chefmomster2]

Don’t be surprised if you get a rabid rant back. Every so often I accidentally stumble across vitriolic attacks on the Church and sometimes other religions and denominations. If evidence is offered, often it is minimal or not understood or checked.

Based on my limited experience, I have been moving towards the opinion that these people (irrespective of belief, denomination etc):

1. Do not research beyond the limits of their self belief or what they are told.
   2, Do not accept or recognise that anyone who does not agree with them is a true believer.
2. Could be too busy enjoying adoration from their followers.
3. Understand that they draw people away from Christ through undermining a delicate faith or by showing a face of Christianity that is not Christian.
4. Have little respect for the dignity or efforts of others.
5. Lack genuine loving kindness.
   or, more often than not:
6. Are poorly educated in Scripture (historical context, language, links between Old and New Testament e.g. not able to use faith and reason together. And
7. Not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit as intended by God.

I find it very sad that we can so easily fall into the trap of doing the exact opposite of what Christ taught us. It is more repugnant, when I have fallen, even if it is only in thought. Using the Hide button gives the appearance of maintaining a dignified silence, whereas the reality is a private ranting, repentance and much praying.

If you do decide to go ahead, I would suggest a period of quiet prayer to discern if you should respond, and if so, further prayer for guidance on providing a response that combines loving kindness, gentleness and clear evidence. More prayer for strength and courage to deal with the response, or if there is silence, for restraint and trusting in God to take action. Plus prayer for the person and your relative (whatever the motive behind their actions).

This is just my small offering to the discussion.

May God bless you.

SUPERB RESPONSE!

 

[tvknight415]

Looking back after typing my responses, there’s just a teeny-weeny-little bit of sarcasm in the following responses.

1. Forced Celibacy lead to sexual deviation.

I recall reading somewhere that the rate of pedophillia (which he is undoubtedly referring to) is actually less than the rate among the general population. Don’t remember where though.

1. Under the Cardinals residence is one of the largest gay bars in Rome.

If it is true, so what? If my office space is on the third floor and a gay bar on the first floor, what does it matter?

1. Pope Benedict XVI resigned because it was the only way to clean out the Vatican corruption.

Yep. Age and declining health couldn’t possibly of had anything to do with it. And how exactly does one resigning clean out corruption in an organization?

1. Catholic’s exalt Mary over Christ and god.

Not in any mass I’ve ever been to. In fact, except in the Creed, where we refer to Christ being born of the Virgin Mary, or if she happens to be in one of the readings of the day, or in a sermon, I don’t recall hearing anyone mention Mary.

1. They re-sacrifice Christ at the mass.

Nope. We re-present the bread and wine of the last supper, as Christ did. If we ‘re-sacrifice’ Christ, Christ re-sacrificed himself before he was sacrificed. Aye! And I thought the Trinity was a hard concept to wrap my mind around.

1. False forgiveness of the confessional.

Yep. When the apostles were given the power to forgive men’s sins in John 20:22-23, it came with the stipulation that it can’t be administered in a private room. Or, was that part of John 20 redacted from the proof copy?!?!?!

1. Infant Baptism is useless.

Why is that? Even if infant baptism was false, at least their forehead will be clean and they’ll smell nice. Can’t technically call that ‘useless.’

1. People give money to the church to buy their dead relatives out of purgatory.

No, people give money to the church to support the church. People offer prayers to get their dead relatives out of purgatory.

1. You can buy your own way out of purgatory.

Hmm… not the last time I checked the Catechism. Maybe Dr. MacArthur has a Catechism for a different Catholic Church than the one I belong to.

1. They worship idols.

Hmm… wasn’t aware that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were idols, and not the Trinity.

1. Prayers for the dead are wrong.

Don’t remember reading that in any Bible. In fact, if Dr. MacArthur would use a complete Bible, he’d see it right there in Maccabees, that it’s a wholly good and right thing to do to pray for the dead.

1. The pope is a usurper of Christ over his church.

Huh?!?!?!

1. The papacy is the Anti-Christ.

Wasn’t President Obama the anti-christ last week on Fundie Radio? I wish they’d make up their minds.

1. The pope can’t ever make a mistake (infallibility).

Not sure where he got that idea from, but infallibility is only limited to faith and morals. If he can’t EVER make a mistake, I definitely am de-inviting him from my Saturday night poker game (not that he ever came…)

1. Pope John Paul II is not in heaven (faith alone doctrine).

Is the devil crank-calling Dr. MacArthur again, pretending to be JP2 and stuck in Hell? I wonder if the good Dr. checked his caller id or did a reverse number look-up.

1. Quotes the Council of Trent (6 session chapter 16) Cannon 9, 11, 12, etc.

???

1. The roman system is a replica of the Pharisees.

If it were a replica of the Pharisees, we’d be denying Jesus was the Messiah.

1. Paul acted without Peter’s (the pope) authority.

Hmm… don’t know what to say. I’m posting this response without the Pope’s authority. One moment… email sent… waiting… still waiting… guess I’m doing the same thing Paul did.

1. There is no link between Peter and every pope.

Yep. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that one should be elected to fill the place of one who died. Certainly that didn’t happen to Matthias when he got Judas’ job.

1. Large chunks of time when there was not a pope (4 century, 7th century, 11th century, 15th century)

Yep. I sure remember an instruction in the Bible that said the church can’t go more than 6 weeks without having a Pope. Or not!

1. The history of the church is a mess and that invalidates it.

Oh boy, if the Catholic church being a mess invalidates it, what do 30,000 competing interpretations of the Bible do to the Protestant church?

1. The catholic church is a gigantic system of church worship, sacrament worship, saint worship, Mary worship, image worship, relic worship, priest worship, pope worship. (quotes J. C. Ryle)

Don’t recall ever worshiping the church, saints, Mary, images, relics, priests, the Pope. The sacraments… well… just one… but the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, so isn’t He worthy of worship, since he is God?

1. The pope wears a jeweled crown worth millions. The cardinals garb is worth tens of thousands of dollars. etc… It’s a pompous display of wealth that covers a sinful system that seduces and it’s Satanic.

Yep, I just hate that every time I see Pope Francis on TV he’s wearing that annoyingly large jeweled crown. I mean, really, does he know that the glare from all those jewels make him look like he’s glowing with light? Maybe that’s why Dr. MacArthur thinks he’s trying to imitate God. I hated it when John Paul II did it, I hated it when Benedict XVI did it, but Francis just can’t seem to go out in public without the crown.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I was wondering if anyone could help me refute this video. A relative of mine has posted a link to this video on her facebook page. I’d like to formulate a response to this person via a long email

I would first remind your cousin, whether she is Catholic or not, that to engage in detraction or slander is a very grevious sin which drives the presence of Christ out of our soul, it is a sin which makes it impossible for the soul to enter heaven until the reputation of those detracted or slandered has been restored. This holds true for institutions as well as for people.

Also, remind her that the one making the accusations is obliged to prove they are true. This has not been done. And if any are true the accuser has failed to prove either that this is the fault of the Church itself or of particular individuals in the Church, or that it disproves the Holiness of the Chruch, or that it disproves the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ. All of this is nothing but scurrilous gossip, slander, and detraction.

1. The Church does not force celibacy on anyone because she does not force anyone to become priests. And from the very beginning many, if not most, priests and bishops, including the Apostles, were single. Also, if that were true, how would account for the sexual deviancy among those who are not priests ( both male and female ), how would you account for the fact that " sexual deviation " is present also among even married individuals in the secular world?
2. If true, the Cardinal should find a new residence. But where is the proof that it is true? And, if true, this would be a fault of the Cardinal, not the Church. Surely your cousin cannot be ignorant of questionable actions on the part of non-Catholic clergy?

3 No proof whatsoever that Benedict 16 resigned because “…it was the only way to clean out the Vatican…” He has stated his reasons, why should we doubt him. And the earthly structure of the Church is always in need of purification. The Church herself is not corrupt, she is Holy because she was established by Christ. But the instruments through which the Church operates and spreads the gospel are human and can make errors and commit sins. Just look at the Jewish history of the Old Testament, the Gospels and the Letters of Paul, and the Acts of the Apostles. They were filled with sinful believers.

1. That is a lie. We honor Mary as the Mother of Christ and the most perfect human creature ever created and who can and does intercede for us with her son.
2. That is not true. The consecration at Mass brings Christ’s actual sacrifice actually present in our time, it allows us to stand in the actual scene as it is taking place and it allows us to be actual witnesses to this and to Christ’s Resurrection as well. It also allows us to receive Christ’s Glorified body as food for the spiritual good of our souls and the physical health of our bodies and minds.
3. Christ Himself commanded that we confess our sins. And he gave the Church, through Peter, the power to forgive and to retain sins.
4. Baptism is effacious for sanctity and salvation of all, including infants… That is what the Church teaches and has taught from the very beginning. Didn’t Christ himself say, " let the children come to me…" ?
5. Outright slander. We donate money to allow the Church to pay its bills, to pay the rent, the utilities, the secretary, the lawyers, the teachers, to plow the snow, to mow the lawn,etc.
6. Outright slander. It is true that at one time, hundreds of years ago, priests and bishops were selling indulgences. This was a great sin on their part and was corrected. But then or now, money cannot buy anyone into heaven. Only a truly contrite and clean soul gets us into heaven. And that depends on our personal acts, not on money.
7. Nonesense, we use statues, icons, stained glass windows, works of art, etc. to beautify the house of God and to remind us of the holy lives of some who went before us and the beauty of the Church.
8. Nonesense, in the Book of Macabees, we are urged to pray for the dead. The New Testament also urges us to pray for those who have passed on .

12, Peter was commanded to lead the Church. And the young Chuch began appointing replacements for the Apostles right from the beginning. Peter and the Apostles appointed Matthias to replace Judas in the Acts of the Apostles. They also appointed seven Deacons. And Paul appointed many Bishops and priests. All to carry on the work of the Church. And this has continued in an unbroken line down to Pope Francis today.

1. How could the Pope, who has been lawfully elected to replace Peter to lead the Church Christ established be an " Anti Christ " when the Church has the protection of the Holy Spirit?
2. The Pope can make mistakes of personal judgment when he speaks " off the record, " but not when is is formally teaching about matters of Faith and Morals.

End Part 1

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Part 2.

1. When Pope John II is Canonized, the Church will be making a Defide statment that he is in heaven. That will be an Infallible teacing. When the Church Canonizes, she teaches Infallibly.
2. All the Cannons of all the Councils are Infallible because the Holy Spirit has promised to protect the Church when she teaches in matters of Faith and Morals.
3. I don’t know what the author means by this. But the Church was established by Christ, it could hardly be a " replica of the Pharisees.
4. Pauls teaching was approved by Peter in the Acts of the Apostles.
5. Nonesense. The Church is satisfied that the line of the Popes has never been broken. And the Holy Spirit has been promised to protect the Church from errors regarding Faith and Morals. And this is a most important point of Faith. Besides there is documentary proof dating back to the first couple hundreds of years. There was no doubt of this until much later in history and this was doubted only by non-believers and heretics. .
6. There were short periods of time when there was no acting Pope. In one instance this lasted for three years, but the bishops still retained the the blessing of Infallibility in matters of Faith and Morals. The Church still lived. Even if this should last for a thousand years the Infallibility of the Church would still be retained. Only no new teachings could be made.
7. Certainly the members of the Church could always be more Holy. Whatever problems may exist from time to time do not " invalidate " it.
8. An out right lie.
9. The Pope wears whatever tradition requires. The value of his garb has nothing evil about it. Why shouldn’t we make the Church beautiful? Nothing sinful in it at all.

I would suggest you get some books on apologetics by Dr. Peter Kreeft and others.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Looking back after typing my responses, there’s just a teeny-weeny-little bit of sarcasm in the following responses…

Loved it. Your a comic and don’t know it. Yep the devil sure likes that " Dr. " prefix. Doctor of what I wonder. Not of truth that’s for sure. Just another " Jack Chick " wanna be.

Linus2nd

 

[Hans_W]

I find myself wondering why publicly-posted smears like that don’t run afoul of “hate speech” and libel/slander laws. People are entitled to their own religious beliefs, but they’re not free to make patently false and slanderous statements about others. As the saying goes, people are entitled to their own opinions; they’re not entitled to their own facts.

I agree!

I have been following McArthur’s hate-speeches and books for a while. I would love to see him in a serious discussion with a Catholic apologetics, such as Scott Hahn or Robert Sungenis. But he doesn’t do that. He just preaches to his flock, and thanks to the internet it gets distributed everywhere without rebuttal.

Now it comes with Spanish subtitles to penetrate even more into Spanish-speaking Catholic audiences. He is the poster child of Christian fundamentalism. I don’t care so much if he thinks I will go to hell, but I do get very upset if these people tell me that my parents, grandparents, etc., etc., were following the Antichrist!!!

If you know a bit about science and want to have a laugh, watch McArthur’s series on science and the Bible. It is such nonsense (respect for the readers here prevents me of using a more suitable word) that one feels embarrassed to be lumped into one religion with this guy.

Many Catholics don’t know the basics of their faith. That’s why it is so important to keep learning. Watch Marcus Grodi on his Journey Home program when he interviews highly intelligent people who studied the Scriptures in greatest detail. There are hundreds of them. Why would they join the Catholic Church if it was based on false beliefs, let alone all these accusations coming from MacArthur?

 

[JamesG]

1. Quotes the Council of Trent (6 session chapter 16) Cannon 9, 11, 12, etc.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. MacArthur first quotes several passages in the bible that state that we are only saved through faith and then quotes from the Canons on Justification that say, “let them be anathema” if they believe in that faith alone doctrine.

As I understand the word “anathema” is used in the actual documents, but MacArthur uses the word “Damned”. He makes it look like the Catholic church is damning all those who follow faith alone doctrine.

I don’t know much about the council of Trent, but I do know that the Dr. fails to quote James.

Actually, here is a great outline of his argument. It also fails to quote James.

carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

 

[ajcstr]

he is a classic old school anti-catholic. He attacks the Catholic “strawman” that doesn’t really exist.

 

[Mimi]

Post #14 snip:

Also, remind her that the one making the accusations is obliged to prove they are true. This has not been done. And if any are true the accuser has failed to prove either that this is the fault of the Church itself or of particular individuals in the Church, or that it disproves the Holiness of the Church, or that it disproves the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ. All of this is nothing but scurrilous gossip, slander, and detraction.

Amen! Perhaps a general response to the list of accusations that appeared on fb, might be to gently remind the person that s/he will be accountable to Jesus at the time s/he meets Him face-to-face and must give an account of how the Christian faith was lived. Something we should all be aware of. It is too easy to use hurtful/harmful language when discussions are online and somewhat anonymous.

Ppl should be quite sure they are not making false accusations. Many who have set out to prove the Catholic Church wrong have been converted because they actually had to find out the truth of what the Church teaches!

I pray this would be the case for the person on fb with the litany of accusations!

Happy Easter!
Mimi