B
Bookcat
Guest
Giving of course the DRE the benefit of doubt at to what was said or meant…
such is an ancient approach.
such is an ancient approach.
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B
Bookcat
Guest
“A knowledge of biblical personages, events and well-known sayings should thus be encouraged; this can also be promoted by the judicious *memorization *of some passages which are particularly expressive of the Christian mysteries.”
–Pope Benedict XVI
Verbum Domini
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html (in section “The biblical dimension of catechesis”)
–Pope Benedict XVI
Verbum Domini
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html (in section “The biblical dimension of catechesis”)
J
jmcrae
Guest
Catholics who facilitate RCIA, however, should know where things are found in the Bible, and be able to at least paraphrase their meaning, if not quote them exactly. And since it’s ordinary Catholics who are often chosen for this work, then it’s ordinary Catholics who should know these things.
You’re right that the RCIA sessions themselves are not really conducive to exercises in memorization; however, seeing that some of their Catechists have memorized certain portions of the Bible (and contrasting that with the amount of time wasted when their other Catechists doesn’t know off-hand where to find something in the Bible) would encourage the Candidates to see that this is, in fact, both a doable and a useful thing, and invites them to make the attempt on their own.
M
Monte_RCMS
Guest
For many years, the Baltimore Catechism was the standard Catholic instructional tool used in the United States. It is superb.
It covers every aspect of Catholic apologetics and doctrine and dogma.
Students were assisted by their teachers to memorize selected parts of it.
Get a set of them; they are designed for various age groups and are a bit easier to use than the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you should also have … it is a superb reference.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Catechism
It is still available. Four books; three for students of various age goups and a teacher’s guide. Check with Amazon.
After Vatican II, from the mid-1960’s on, there occurred a movement within the Catholic Church to eliminate what was denigrated as “rote memorization”.
“As if” … memorization caused understanding to suffer.
What followed can only be described as an absolute unmitigated disaster as waves of ignorance swept over the Catholic laity.
People no longer memorized. But they also no longer had any understanding.
The reason why Karl Keating formed Catholic Answers was to attempt to fill the gap in knowledge created by the loss of the traditional Catholic education system.
It is important to know the Bible. And to understand the 3000 year sweep of history covered by it.
SOME memorization is absolutely essential. And very useful.
If you get a chance, as you progress in your studies of the Bible, take a look at the Bible Timeline … it’s a study of the Bible using a timeline approach. It is Catholic. And relatively new in that it arranges the key people, places and events in chronological order.
www.BibleStudyforCatholics.com
The major folks who put this amazing program together are Jeff Cavins, Tim Gray and Sarah Christmyer … and also Matthew Pinto, who came up via Catholic Answers a few years ago.
If you get your Bible Study via the readings at Mass, then you are missing out on the sweep of the 5000 year timeline approach to Bible study.
Finally, if you are looking for a stocking stuffer for Christmas, get this:
shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=17113&cat=0&page=1
It covers every aspect of Catholic apologetics and doctrine and dogma.
Students were assisted by their teachers to memorize selected parts of it.
Get a set of them; they are designed for various age groups and are a bit easier to use than the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you should also have … it is a superb reference.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Catechism
It is still available. Four books; three for students of various age goups and a teacher’s guide. Check with Amazon.
After Vatican II, from the mid-1960’s on, there occurred a movement within the Catholic Church to eliminate what was denigrated as “rote memorization”.
“As if” … memorization caused understanding to suffer.
What followed can only be described as an absolute unmitigated disaster as waves of ignorance swept over the Catholic laity.
People no longer memorized. But they also no longer had any understanding.
The reason why Karl Keating formed Catholic Answers was to attempt to fill the gap in knowledge created by the loss of the traditional Catholic education system.
It is important to know the Bible. And to understand the 3000 year sweep of history covered by it.
SOME memorization is absolutely essential. And very useful.
If you get a chance, as you progress in your studies of the Bible, take a look at the Bible Timeline … it’s a study of the Bible using a timeline approach. It is Catholic. And relatively new in that it arranges the key people, places and events in chronological order.
www.BibleStudyforCatholics.com
The major folks who put this amazing program together are Jeff Cavins, Tim Gray and Sarah Christmyer … and also Matthew Pinto, who came up via Catholic Answers a few years ago.
If you get your Bible Study via the readings at Mass, then you are missing out on the sweep of the 5000 year timeline approach to Bible study.
Finally, if you are looking for a stocking stuffer for Christmas, get this:
shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=17113&cat=0&page=1
J
JRRTFAN
Guest
The DRE might think the practice encourages de-contexting of verses and that may be true to an extent. You just don’t know. The DRE at my parish discourages anything too “Catholic” that’s why no kids come to Mass after Cofirmation so I would ask more questions of the DRE.
C
Crumpy
Guest
This discussion is NOT pointless. We are discussing the topic on the terms that it was presented to us. We do not have the DRE on trial. Sure, we don’t know what the DRE said, exactly.
Why do we need to be obsessed with the idea of context? In this case, what context is there in which the alleged statement might be true?
And, historically, before the advent of the printing press, people would have to and did carry around a lot of information in their heads.
C’mon. tell me in what context, any context, is it general advice to discourage people from memorizing verses of the Bible. I haven’t deliberately memorized any verses from the Bible, in general, just because they were Bible verses. I remember them because I have read them so often.
Is that wrong, too?
C
Contarini
Guest
If you want cut-and-dried answers,sure.
But the CCC reflects more recent doctrinal developments, and its avoidance of the cut-and-dried approach is surely deliberate.
Edwin
E
Evan
Guest
To a question, I ALWAYS want a cut-and-dried answer.
What is grace?
Why am I here?
What is a sacrament?
Why should there not be a good answer to a simple question? Do you know why you were made?
T
TrueLight
Guest
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Christians did not have Bibles for over a thousand years. The “word” hidden in your heart is the Logos.
If we can’t explain our faith without a Bible, we don’t understand it ourselves.
C
Crumpy
Guest
This all isn’t exactly true,in my opinion. In his book TRADITION AND THE CHURCH, Msgr George (can’t remember – I have a thread on this) says that the gospel was spread for a couple hundred years without having a Bible, which is to say, the new testament part of it (for sure). The Bible wasn’t necessary for spreading the gospel, which we can plainly see. But, the intellectual basis of the NT is the OT, which was always there.
It’s not clear to me how “available” the OT was in Biblical times or in the early church. There must have been an industry involved in distributing the Septuagint, anyway, for sure.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Speculate: did Jesus memorize scriptures when He was a boy?
If that is true then why not imitate Jesus?
If that is true then why not imitate Jesus?
S
sambos671
Guest
I’d the the DRE is a … HERETIC!!!
The catachism encourages us to study the scripture and to know them under guidance of the Magisterium. Its knuckleheads like this that cause catholics to become un-catachized and end up going to protestant churches!!!
Not to say I’m very opinionated about this.
C
Contarini
Guest
I think that ignores the deficiencies of human language when speaking of divine things.
First of all, you call that a simple question?
Secondly, my premise is that cut-and-dried answers, in matters of theology, are rarely good ones.
And finally, I believe the BC says something like “to love and serve God in this life and enjoy Him in the next.” But I may be mixing it up with Westminster, which says “to glorify God and enjoy Him forever,” which is good Catholic theology and more memorably put, which (apart from having heard it more often, since Presbyterians love to rattle it off on all occasions and I have known a lot of Presbyterians) is why I remember it better.
That’s not a cut-and-dried answer at all.
I’m not opposed to clear answers. The only problem with “cut-and-dried” answers, as I’m using the term, is that they imply that the question really has been exhaustively and satisfactorily answered. The clarity of Latin Catholicism is a good thing if it’s seen as just the first step to deeper appropriation of the Mysteries of Faith!
Edwin
D
Della
Guest
No, the DRE is not a heretic. S/he has the right to define the parameters of catechesis for RCIA. S/he shouldn’t have made it sound like Catholics are not to memorize Scripture, but rather that doing so is not part of the RCIA process (which it isn’t) but that those who wish to do so should be careful to take note of both the context as well as Church teaching when reading/memorizing Scripture–that would have been better. If the OP is accurately quoting the DRE (which isn’t necessarily the case–most of us mishear what others say all the time), so if the DRE did say this, I would rather err on the side of misunderstanding the intention that label him/her a heretic.I’d the the DRE is a … HERETIC!!!
The catachism encourages us to study the scripture and to know them under guidance of the Magisterium. Its knuckleheads like this that cause catholics to become un-catachized and end up going to protestant churches!!!
Not to say I’m very opinionated about this.
S
sambos671
Guest
Lets break it downNo, the DRE is not a heretic. S/he has the right to define the parameters of catechesis for RCIA. S/he shouldn’t have made it sound like Catholics are not to memorize Scripture, but rather that doing so is not part of the RCIA process (which it isn’t) but that those who wish to do so should be careful to take note of both the context as well as Church teaching when reading/memorizing Scripture–that would have been better. If the OP is accurately quoting the DRE (which isn’t necessarily the case–most of us mishear what others say all the time), so if the DRE did say this, I would rather err on the side of misunderstanding the intention that label him/her a heretic.
which S/he did which is adverse the catachism btw.
That stipulation is mentioned in the Catachism.
We Catholics have a long Tradition of yelling “HERITIC!!!” of which I like to partake.
. I mean the inquisition was started to calm the common people from Gathering up people they thought were hertics and burning them at the stake and provide for some legal guidance. 
From my perspective as one who was raised Catholic, went to Parochial Schools, and enticed from the Church because of Liberal, Cultural (Catholic in name only) type mentors and teachers wouldn’t teach me the historic faith but some hippy, dope smoking, Cheech and Chong version of it, where I learned to sing Kumbiya rather than the two sources of Apostolic Tradition. (Scriptures being one btw). I think this is a serious issue. In my mind, the Catholic Church is bleeding members because of the apperance of solidarity with the Nancy Pelosi Catholic Types and priest and nuns who take side with the current culture rather than with the historic Church!!! Now that is not to say all priest and nuns are that way but when you get an Arch Bishop in Scotland trying to have the Church allow for same sex civil unions we got a problem of poor catachesis!!! And a little scriptural memorization isn’t going to hurt as much as what is already tearing the church apart!!!
Now you may be correct it isn’t exactly what the DRE said. However, its a dangerous stance to take to prohibit Catholics from memorizing scripture which is our Heritage. If the DRE has been misrepresented I apologize. However, I am no less incensed by even the thought of it.
I’m off my soap box now.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Go ask the bishop if you should obey the DRE or not and then do what he says!
S
sambos671
Guest
Instead why don’t I/we explain to the bishop the context of the issue and then attend to his judgement.
Unless, of course, you like the hippy in step with the modern culture that allows for abortions, same sex civil unions, kissing the ring finger of Nancy Pelosi, and never being truelly catachized into the faith never really knowing what it is we believe.
Maybe we should role out more Catholics that believe in superstions rather than what the church truely teaches and bury St. Joseph statues upside down in our yards to sell our houses, but are ignorant of the Eucharist, the difference between the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Have no idea what are the 3 theological virtues of the Church. Of what things consist of Coporial acts of Mercy verses Spiritual acts of Mercy, or being able to list the 10 commandments, or List the precepts of the Church. Or Look blankly at people when called to give a reason for our hope. Or have catholic daughters think its ok to have women priest which would circumvent the Matter of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
Or Maybe the bishop would agree with these things in which case I would go to the Nuncio as this goes against the consistent teaching of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I’m not saying you agree or your bishop agrees with this but far too many Catholics do and its got to change. And if Memorizing Scripture will better Catachize ignorant Catholics then why not? Certainly on these issues the Pope has made himself clear as do the documents of the Church. I pay and hope you’re not one of the Catholics who do agree with the said topics i’ve suggested.
B
bmonk
Guest
But faith is not about cut-and-dried answers. Faith is about a relationship with a living God.
Besides, with mysteries–the heart of our faith–no answer is adequate. The living truth is always greater than we can understand or express.
(also what Contarini said.
)
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
I’m sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant 'bibles" literally. Books containing the Scriptures were very rare. Even books containing partial Scriptures were rare and confined to the wealthy. People were for the most part illiterate. I recall in the first US census, they literacy rate just after the Revolution was about 10%. I can’t imagine what it was in 1200. People didn’t have or read Scriptures for most of the history of the Church. The Rosary served to give people the Gospels in a nutshell, sort of. So having a Bible available and being able to read it is a pretty recent development.
I don’t know. I just think if we have been inspired by that, then we don’t need to quote it to explain or live our faith.
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