Dress code in church/life

[Margarete_Faust]

I suppose this will turn into more of a rant, so please be patient with me.

I went home for Christmas and attended the Christmas Eve Mass with my family. My younger sister, who is 19, wore a dress that she had worn to homecoming 2 years prior: black, with one shoulder bare. The length of the skirt and the chest line was nothing to complain about. I thought it was an odd choice for church, but she put a sweater over it and I assumed she would just keep the sweater on. We are parishioners at a Benedictine abbey in Pennsylvania, which means that the building is not necessarily warm, but since the temperatures did not drastically drop, it was much better than it can be. Well, right at the beginning of the Mass, she takes off the sweater. I noticed other people glancing over at her, waited for my parents to tell her to put the sweater back on since it seemed like it was becoming a distraction. I finally whispered to her to put the sweater back on to show some respect to the altar and the people present before it. She got very angry at me (I did actually mince my words this time), but she put her sweater back on for the remainder of the Mass.

She complained about it to my mother on the 26th. My mother sat me down this morning and told me it was none of my business what my sister wore. To a certain extent, that is true, but I pointed out to my mother that this was a matter of respect for the altar. My mother then cut into me by saying “You used to dress so cute. Now you dress matronly, and just because you like that does not mean that you can force that on your sister.” Note: I actually do not dress matronly, but since I gave up mini skirts and will not wear leggings as pants, and decided that longer skirts are more fun to wear than shorts in the summer, she has been on my back about how I dress. She keeps on trying to buy me clothes that are contrary to my personality and morals (I own tunics and leggings and am hassled if I do not wear them, even though they ride a fine line between modest/immodest). I know that clothing rules are not iron-clad in our culture, but I feel that there are basic rules of decency that one should follow in church, such as not exposing skin in certain areas of the body, and the shoulders can be problematic since they affect the neckline.

Okay, the rant part is over. My mother wants me to apologize to my sister. I told my mother no, since I saw nothing wrong with what I said. I asked my sister just once to put a sweater on, and she did. I did not insult her, I did not repeatedly ask her, and I did not talk condescendingly to her about it later. I told my mother that I felt what I did was right and that I was not going to apologize for something that I believed in.

Am I supposed to apologize to my sister? Was it my business to say something in the first place? Am I breaking the fourth commandment by denying my mother’s request?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You should apologize. She is an adult and even if she wasn’t she is not your daughter. Telling her what to wear, especially when you’re in public is not your place.

 

[KLJM12]

I suppose this will turn into more of a rant, so please be patient with me.

I went home for Christmas and attended the Christmas Eve Mass with my family. My younger sister, who is 19, wore a dress that she had worn to homecoming 2 years prior: black, with one shoulder bare. The length of the skirt and the chest line was nothing to complain about. I thought it was an odd choice for church, but she put a sweater over it and I assumed she would just keep the sweater on. We are parishioners at a Benedictine abbey in Pennsylvania, which means that the building is not necessarily warm, but since the temperatures did not drastically drop, it was much better than it can be. Well, right at the beginning of the Mass, she takes off the sweater. I noticed other people glancing over at her, waited for my parents to tell her to put the sweater back on since it seemed like it was becoming a distraction. I finally whispered to her to put the sweater back on to show some respect to the altar and the people present before it. She got very angry at me (I did actually mince my words this time), but she put her sweater back on for the remainder of the Mass.

She complained about it to my mother on the 26th. My mother sat me down this morning and told me it was none of my business what my sister wore. To a certain extent, that is true, but I pointed out to my mother that this was a matter of respect for the altar. My mother then cut into me by saying “You used to dress so cute. Now you dress matronly, and just because you like that does not mean that you can force that on your sister.” Note: I actually do not dress matronly, but since I gave up mini skirts and will not wear leggings as pants, and decided that longer skirts are more fun to wear than shorts in the summer, she has been on my back about how I dress. She keeps on trying to buy me clothes that are contrary to my personality and morals (I own tunics and leggings and am hassled if I do not wear them, even though they ride a fine line between modest/immodest). I know that clothing rules are not iron-clad in our culture, but I feel that there are basic rules of decency that one should follow in church, such as not exposing skin in certain areas of the body, and the shoulders can be problematic since they affect the neckline.

Okay, the rant part is over. My mother wants me to apologize to my sister. I told my mother no, since I saw nothing wrong with what I said. I asked my sister just once to put a sweater on, and she did. I did not insult her, I did not repeatedly ask her, and I did not talk condescendingly to her about it later. I told my mother that I felt what I did was right and that I was not going to apologize for something that I believed in.

Am I supposed to apologize to my sister? Was it my business to say something in the first place? Am I breaking the fourth commandment by denying my mother’s request?

Wow. I think I speak for every single Roman Catholic when I say, “Thank you!”. All of us males see scantily dressed, immodest, self-centered, “LOOK-AT-ME!” outfits far too often in the house of God. So what you asked of your sister was commendable. Not only was it commendable because you let your sister know she was being disrespectful to God, but you also kept her from sinning by creating a near occasion of sin for any male parishoner near her.

Do not apologize. It would be dishonest for you to apologize for doing the right thing. You asked your sister to show respect to Jesus Christ, who was physically present (with the rest of heaven, I might add). The commandment is to “honor your father and mother”, not “obey their every wish”.

Once against, on behalf of every Roman Catholic man who wants to see women become real women with self-respect again and stop dressing like prostitutes, “thank you!”.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Wow. I think I speak for every single Roman Catholic when I say, “Thank you!”. All of us males see scantily dressed, immodest, self-centered, “LOOK-AT-ME!” outfits far too often in the house of God. So what you asked of your sister was commendable. Not only was it commendable because you let your sister know she was being disrespectful to God, but you also kept her from sinning by creating a near occasion of sin for any male parishoner near her.

Do not apologize. It would be dishonest for you to apologize for doing the right thing. You asked your sister to show respect to Jesus Christ, who was physically present (with the rest of heaven, I might add). The commandment is to “honor your father and mother”, not “obey their every wish”.

Once against, on behalf of every Roman Catholic man who wants to see women become real women with self-respect again and stop dressing like prostitutes, “thank you!”.

Her sister was not dressed like a prostitute! What a disrespectful thing to say. The OP made it clear that the hem and neckline were fine, but just that one shoulder was exposed.

 

[catholicmamajoy]

I would tell your sister you’re sorry if she found your suggestion offensive, but just as you would let her know that wearing orange pumps with red pants or a green striped dress and carrying a purple plaid bag is a fashion no-no, so is having bare shoulders in Mass. That way, she’s more inclined to receive such suggestions as a sisterly “you have spinach in your teeth” or “those colors clash” kind of comment instead of perceiving it as a “you are dressing trashy” comment.

 

[KLJM12]

Her sister was not dressed like a prostitute! What a disrespectful thing to say. The OP made it clear that the hem and neckline were fine, but just that one shoulder was exposed.

And I was speaking in a generalized manner regarding the dress that I, as well as many other Catholics who attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the New Order of the Mass, have observed women wearing.

However, because of cultural relativism and its terrible influence on the perceptions that individuals have pertaining to dress, I can see why you would hold your position that her outfit was not at all similar to the way a prostitute would dress.

But I ask you, why would someone show their shoulder at Mass, or anywhere for that matter? To be noticed, of course, for a bare shoulder is in no way functional.

Now that brings us to the question, “in what way would they like to be noticed?”. Are they trying to show everyone how intellectual they are? Or how about how athletic they are? Perhaps they are trying to get everyone to notice how religious they are? Oh no, I know. They are trying to be noticed sexually. They think it looks “cute”, but not “cute” like a puppy is cute. “Cute” as in sexually attractive to the opposite gender.

Wouldn’t you find it difficult to form an opposing position on the subject? Regardless of her intentions, that is the message she would be sending in such an instance. And couldn’t one make the point, after establishing the aforementioned conclusions, that a prostitute would desire to have the same attention via the same methods, albeit to a lesser extent?

I understand that this culture that we live in has so sensitized us to scanty outfits and bare skin in places that would make our great-grandparents ashamed, but consider for a moment the outfit you would want to approach GOD in. Would it a “cute” little dress? Would it be a “cute” bare-shouldered dress? Or would it be an outfit worthy to be worn in his presence? One that says, “I am not the center of the world here, focus on God”?

And saying something that is “offensive” is not always disrespectful. It is reality. Regardless of the cultural influence we are all under.

 

[Immacolata]

You should apologize. She is an adult and even if she wasn’t she is not your daughter. Telling her what to wear, especially when you’re in public is not your place.

I agree. I see nothing wrong with her outfit if it is as described by the OP. The neck and hemline were fine, and one shoulder was bare; the OP themselves said they thought it was an odd choice, personally I can see the objection but I don’t believe the sister was wearing it for the purpose of being immodest. She was surely not dressing like a prostitute.

As for the OP, I would suggest that you talk to your sister and see how she feels. If you offended her, I believe you should apologize and see why she was offended; it could be the way she perceived you said it, your mannerisms how you said it, or she could have felt pressured because of your words combined with the glances of the congregation.

God bless.

 

[catholicanne]

You should apologize. She is an adult and even if she wasn’t she is not your daughter. Telling her what to wear, especially when you’re in public is not your place.

I disagree. As her family member she has ever right to help instruct her sister in what is and isn’t respectful at church. I come from a Hispanic family and we have NO problem helping each other out when we see that one of us is dressing in a disrespectful manner. Maybe it’s just cultural but I think the OP should not have to apologize.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I suppose this will turn into more of a rant, so please be patient with me.

I went home for Christmas and attended the Christmas Eve Mass with my family. My younger sister, who is 19, wore a dress that she had worn to homecoming 2 years prior: black, with one shoulder bare. The length of the skirt and the chest line was nothing to complain about. I thought it was an odd choice for church, but she put a sweater over it and I assumed she would just keep the sweater on. We are parishioners at a Benedictine abbey in Pennsylvania, which means that the building is not necessarily warm, but since the temperatures did not drastically drop, it was much better than it can be. Well, right at the beginning of the Mass, she takes off the sweater. I noticed other people glancing over at her, waited for my parents to tell her to put the sweater back on since it seemed like it was becoming a distraction. I finally whispered to her to put the sweater back on to show some respect to the altar and the people present before it. She got very angry at me (I did actually mince my words this time), but she put her sweater back on for the remainder of the Mass.

She complained about it to my mother on the 26th. My mother sat me down this morning and told me it was none of my business what my sister wore. To a certain extent, that is true, but I pointed out to my mother that this was a matter of respect for the altar. My mother then cut into me by saying “You used to dress so cute. Now you dress matronly, and just because you like that does not mean that you can force that on your sister.” Note: I actually do not dress matronly, but since I gave up mini skirts and will not wear leggings as pants, and decided that longer skirts are more fun to wear than shorts in the summer, she has been on my back about how I dress. She keeps on trying to buy me clothes that are contrary to my personality and morals (I own tunics and leggings and am hassled if I do not wear them, even though they ride a fine line between modest/immodest). I know that clothing rules are not iron-clad in our culture, but I feel that there are basic rules of decency that one should follow in church, such as not exposing skin in certain areas of the body, and the shoulders can be problematic since they affect the neckline.

Okay, the rant part is over. My mother wants me to apologize to my sister. I told my mother no, since I saw nothing wrong with what I said. I asked my sister just once to put a sweater on, and she did. I did not insult her, I did not repeatedly ask her, and I did not talk condescendingly to her about it later. I told my mother that I felt what I did was right and that I was not going to apologize for something that I believed in.

Am I supposed to apologize to my sister? Was it my business to say something in the first place? Am I breaking the fourth commandment by denying my mother’s request?

This is called TRIANGULATION. Your sister, if she had a problem, should have come to you directly and not involved your mother. Someone said she is an adult? Not if she has to run to her mommy and have Mommy intervene for her. And your mother is just as guilty. Here is what she should have said, “Dear daughter, if you have a problem with your sister, go to her and talk, because this is between the two of you.”

As for the dress, I think it was inappropriate for church. One time, a young woman was wearing a strapless dress in church and since you couldn’t see the rest of the dress from behind, it looked for all the world like she was sitting there in the pew completely NAKED!



Your sister CHOSE to take off the sweater, knowing that she was possibly attracting attention with her one-shoulder dress. IMO, you have nothing to apologize for, and your mom should have screened the dress ahead of time and told her to pick something else. A homecoming dance is NOT the same as Mass.

But I also think you will not win this one, and your sister may now try to provoke more of a reaction by wearing shorter/more low-cut clothing around you.

 

[Boswell]

As a man who frequently encounters distracting dress in Church, I thank you for speaking up. I feel as though you have nothing for which you should apologize and that, if your sister had a problem with what you said to her, she should have come to you directly rather than go to your mother which, in my opinion, indicates a bit of immaturity on her part. Keep your standards…they’re right for you and that’s all that matters.

 

[benjammin]

Okay, I’m a young man, but to be honest, I think what she wore was probably okay, but you do need to be careful. Also, as a man, sometimes it doesn’t matter what a girl is wearing. People would unfortunately stare at her no matter what unless she was wearing a muslim style burkah.

 

[LightBound]

Okay, I’m a young man, but to be honest, I think what she wore was probably okay, but you do need to be careful. Also, as a man, sometimes it doesn’t matter what a girl is wearing. People would unfortunately stare at her no matter what unless she was wearing a muslim style burkah.

Some men would still be tempted to sin, because they would be imagining what was under the burka.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is called TRIANGULATION. Your sister, if she had a problem, should have come to you directly and not involved your mother…

Bingo! And, to be frank, I would also tell Mom that my sister ought to be able to confide her chagrin to her mother without Mom spilling the beans to anyone else by trying to fix everything for grown-ups who are capable of handling their own problems. Maybe the sister had intended to simply vent herself, and then pass the incident over and let it drop. When Mom decided to jump in, the sister lost that option.

I think the best way to handle it when someone does this is to say: “If she has a problem with me, encourage her to talk to me. Otherwise, let her confide in you without tipping me off concerning how she feels. If she wants to confide in you but otherwise keep her thoughts private, give her the right to decide to do that.” Then act as if you had heard nothing. If the sister confronts you, you can say, “I had hearsay from Mom and nothing from you. If Mom had blabbed my confidences to someone else in the family, I’d want them to do what I did, which is to act as if it was a second-hand account that was not to be given any weight. I assumed that if you wanted to take it up with me, you would, and that is when I’d hear the thoughts from you that you wanted me to hear.”

If the sister complains directly to the OP, the OP might point out that, of all places, a monastery is a place where one ought to err on the side of the conservative in dress, as that is a place where people go to flee the standards of “the World”. The OP might have been more tactful–“Sis, everyone usually keeps their shoulders covered at the Abbey”–and she should have expected some resentment might be expressed by a barely-adult who finds herself in need of correction. On that account, correction ought to be offered to 19-year-olds in the most kid-glove manner one can muster, making it clear that where offense is given it was not in any way meant as it could be taken. That way, the sister is encouraged to consider the feelings of the monks or nuns while the OP is showing the way by considering the feelings of her younger sister.

Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. Col. 3:12-14

Could the OP make the point that the standard in the rest of the Church might be similarly high? Yes, she could, but to say the setting is somehow unusually conservative might soften the correction a bit.

 

[Immacolata]

As for the dress, I think it was inappropriate for church. One time, a young woman was wearing a strapless dress in church and since you couldn’t see the rest of the dress from behind, it looked for all the world like she was sitting there in the pew completely NAKED

I would consider this completely inappropriate for Mass; however, if the neck and hemline of the dress of OP’s sister were modest enough, I would think it would be appropriate for Mass, although I, personally, can see the objections to the bare shoulder, and perhaps she should have thought of her outfit more.

However, I don’t believe she was dressing as immodestly as, say, wearing a strapless dress to Mass. If she is offended, I would suggest to the OP to seek the reason why she is offended, and, if a just reason, apologize.

As a man who frequently encounters distracting dress in Church, I thank you for speaking up. I feel as though you have nothing for which you should apologize and that, if your sister had a problem with what you said to her, she should have come to you directly rather than go to your mother which, in my opinion, indicates a bit of immaturity on her part. Keep your standards…they’re right for you and that’s all that matters.

I have read of men glaring at women wearing nothing attention-grabbing, and, to be honest, I doubt the majority of churchgoers that wore distracting dress to you were not trying to be attention-grabbing either. Some might have, but I don’t believe the majority were.

 

[MaryT777]

Wow. I think I speak for every single Roman Catholic when I say, “Thank you!”. All of us males see scantily dressed, immodest, self-centered, “LOOK-AT-ME!” outfits far too often in the house of God. So what you asked of your sister was commendable. Not only was it commendable because you let your sister know she was being disrespectful to God, but you also kept her from sinning by creating a near occasion of sin for any male parishoner near her.

Do not apologize. It would be dishonest for you to apologize for doing the right thing. You asked your sister to show respect to Jesus Christ, who was physically present (with the rest of heaven, I might add). The commandment is to “honor your father and mother”, not “obey their every wish”.

Once against, on behalf of every Roman Catholic man who wants to see women become real women with self-respect again and stop dressing like prostitutes, “thank you!”.

My friend who has been married for 25 years and is here with me thanks you also. She appreciates women who dress modestly so her husband eyes don’t stray in Church.
He also appreciates this also.
Mary.

 

[Prairie_Rose]

I commend you for speaking up… and NO you shouldn’t have to apologize.
Too many people are afraid to stand up for what is “right & decent” and that’s just the start of why our world today is so messed up!

 

[MaryT777]

I agree. I see nothing wrong with her outfit if it is as described by the OP. The neck and hemline were fine, and one shoulder was bare; the OP themselves said they thought it was an odd choice, personally I can see the objection but I don’t believe the sister was wearing it for the purpose of being immodest. She was surely not dressing like a prostitute.

As for the OP, I would suggest that you talk to your sister and see how she feels. If you offended her, I believe you should apologize and see why she was offended; it could be the way she perceived you said it, your mannerisms how you said it, or she could have felt pressured because of your words combined with the glances of the congregation.

God bless.

To me this is ridiculous. The Sister asked her to put a sweater on and she did.
She did not have to. The Mom is on the OP’s case because she “used to” dress “cute” and now she does not enough it seems. Apparently dressing in this family is of primary concern if the OP is expected to wear leggings etc and not look so “Matronly”. The mother owes the OP an apologoy; the mother can tell the other sister to ignore her sister’s comments and maybe “Mommy” could sit between them so there are no comments because after all the OP ‘no longer dresses cute’ WHAT AN EMBARASSMENT THAT MUST BE IN CHURCH…I find that rude to say to a daughter…

How bizarre.

 

[Rico_S]

This is called TRIANGULATION. Your sister, if she had a problem, should have come to you directly and not involved your mother. Someone said she is an adult? Not if she has to run to her mommy and have Mommy intervene for her.

Do we know her sister encouraged the mother to intervene? Perhaps she was just sharing the story with her mother, imparting how that made her feel, and the mother decided to take action. Don’t pile on the little sister just b/c you think she dressed inappropriately.

And I agree that she should have talked to her sister about it…and we don’t know that she would not have.

In any case, I think the mother should have not been involved, And I think the OPs comments to her sister during mass are a bit out of line. Perhaps a private conversation sometime later would have been more appropriate. But that is coming from a guy’s perspective.

 

[triumphguy]

Her sister was not dressed like a prostitute! What a disrespectful thing to say. The OP made it clear that the hem and neckline were fine, but just that one shoulder was exposed.

Anyway, some prostitutes dress like librarians, nurses or policewomen, which kinda proves that what we see is either appropriate or inappropriate in our own heads.

 

[NSFrame]

A 19-year-old college student’s wardrobe probably primarily consists of casual clothes to wear to class and parties. She likely does not have much by way of dressy attire. So, she probably wore a dress she had rather than buying a whole new outfit. I doubt it was an attempt to look sexy per se. I think an older sister is in a good place to guide a younger sister so I don’t think there was a problem with you saying something - but I don’t know that you had to say it in church. Maybe afterwards, to save her from being embarrassed. Being corrected like a child is going to cause resentment and will color anything you say to her.