Dress code in church/life

[taliesin319]

I am 73. There was a time when every Roman Catholic Church was distinguished from all other denominations of Christian Worship. We entered our Churches, and felt the coolness of the Holy Water on our foreheads and genuflected before the altar with the Sanctuary light alerting us to the fact that this was the sacred area where God is worshiped. Since Vatican II, the noise level before any mass puts one in mind of a meeting of The Ancient and Benevolent Order of the Moose, or if really loud, the Clan Na Gail. People now come to mass dressed no differently than if at a pub. There are masses performed today where we are treated to the spectacle of a Wiccan Ministry that prances about in gossamer veils while inviting us give homage to Gaia, our mother. This while an Archbishop, now a Cardinal Prince of the Church, sits, surveying it all, apparently in sync with the goings on as are the Jesuit Priests who are the rectors of this place that calls itself a Roman catholic Church. (NYC) The dress code of the populace runs from barely covered to barefoot in robes a Druid might envy. Across Town is a Congregation that offers a '" Cookie Mass ".This is where a cookie is used as the Sacred Host. Thank you for speaking to your sister. Your sister was visiting in God’s House where modesty is called for. Our pastors seem to have embraced the concept of anything goes.
There are no clearly defined rules governing fitting behavior in dress or other behaviors that pose distractions to prayer and to hearing mass. The Novus Ordo is so filled with people , on the altar, singing post communion and during the serving of communion that one can hardly think let alone pray.

 

[PattiDay]

Is it suitable to wear one shoulder bare at the office? No, because it would look like you were going to a party, not business. So why would a one shoulder dress be suitable for Mass?

 

[einna]

A 19-year-old college student’s wardrobe probably primarily consists of casual clothes to wear to class and parties. She likely does not have much by way of dressy attire. So, she probably wore a dress she had rather than buying a whole new outfit. I doubt it was an attempt to look sexy per se. I think an older sister is in a good place to guide a younger sister so I don’t think there was a problem with you saying something - but I don’t know that you had to say it in church. Maybe afterwards, to save her from being embarrassed. Being corrected like a child is going to cause resentment and will color anything you say to her.

I agree that the OP really should not have commented to the sister, but when she did anything after that should have been between the 2 sisters and not involved the mother.

I think the OP needs to also remember that she dress differently when she was younger (mini skirts and leggings) and she grew up and changed the way she dressed, which I am sure her sister will also in time.

As for the dress, I wouldn’t have my daughter dressing like that for Mass but I would not be offended if someone else did either; however, I would not let her sister get involved in it. Unfortunately today with so many brides weaingr strapless dress at a Mass wedding, it doesn’t help much. Men need to learn to keep their eyes on the alter no matter what anyone else is wearing. Just my opinion.

 

[Jala]

IMen need to learn to keep their eyes on the alter no matter what anyone else is wearing. Just my opinion.

THIS. EXACTLY.

I’ve seen the the same ol’ story in numerous threads on the topic of clothing. If my only exposure to Catholic men is what I read on these forums, I’d be left with the impression that they’re all immature jerks.

I used to be very involved in a local Catholic Church–RCIA, prayer groups, Adoration, Masses, etc. If I would run into anyone from the church, say, at the grocery and would be asked “did you see So-and-so at Mass?” the answer was always NO. Church is not for people-watching. If you can’t keep your eyes on the priest, deacon, cantor, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, or downward in prayer, then stay home.

Seems to me the problem is a lot of women just don’t want to admit that they married pervs, and are looking for an excuse for their behavior.

Jala

 

[Margarete_Faust]

I would consider this completely inappropriate for Mass; however, if the neck and hemline of the dress of OP’s sister were modest enough, I would think it would be appropriate for Mass, although I, personally, can see the objections to the bare shoulder, and perhaps she should have thought of her outfit more.

However, I don’t believe she was dressing as immodestly as, say, wearing a strapless dress to Mass. If she is offended, I would suggest to the OP to seek the reason why she is offended, and, if a just reason, apologize.

I have read of men glaring at women wearing nothing attention-grabbing, and, to be honest, I doubt the majority of churchgoers that wore distracting dress to you were not trying to be attention-grabbing either. Some might have, but I don’t believe the majority were.

I will consider your suggestion to talk to my sister about why she was offended. It is clearly bothering her; I just walked into the kitchen a few minutes ago to show my family a new haircut I just got and my sister (who is usually interested in these things) would not even make eye contact with me. It’s striking a cord with her for some reason, and I think it may have to do with some bad choices she made in a past relationship that ended several months ago.

I will say, I used to be just as guilty for the exact same thing (I was infamous at my university church for appearing at a daily Mass in a miniskirt, followed by a general trend of low necklines). I was also offended when I was approached by others about it, but it is obviously an issue.

 

[Margarete_Faust]

THIS. EXACTLY.

I’ve seen the the same ol’ story in numerous threads on the topic of clothing. If my only exposure to Catholic men is what I read on these forums, I’d be left with the impression that they’re all immature jerks.

I used to be very involved in a local Catholic Church–RCIA, prayer groups, Adoration, Masses, etc. If I would run into anyone from the church, say, at the grocery and would be asked “did you see So-and-so at Mass?” the answer was always NO. Church is not for people-watching. If you can’t keep your eyes on the priest, deacon, cantor, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, or downward in prayer, then stay home.

Seems to me the problem is a lot of women just don’t want to admit that they married pervs, and are looking for an excuse for their behavior.

Jala

I get tired of that too. I understand that modesty is a good people, and that don’t everyone has the same problems when it comes to temptation, but I do feel like some people do take it too far (like the guy on this thread who referred to my sister’s clothing as that of a prostitute… that was harsh, bro).

I have seen people getting condemned for some pretty asinine things, which is why I am questioning my actions and posting on this thread.

 

[Walking_Home]

THIS. EXACTLY.

I’ve seen the the same ol’ story in numerous threads on the topic of clothing. If my only exposure to Catholic men is what I read on these forums, I’d be left with the impression that they’re all immature jerks.

I used to be very involved in a local Catholic Church–RCIA, prayer groups, Adoration, Masses, etc. If I would run into anyone from the church, say, at the grocery and would be asked “did you see So-and-so at Mass?” the answer was always NO. Church is not for people-watching. If you can’t keep your eyes on the priest, deacon, cantor, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, or downward in prayer, then stay home.

Seems to me the problem is a lot of women just don’t want to admit that they married pervs, and are looking for an excuse for their behavior.

Jala

---

 

[Ruprecht]

Is it suitable to wear one shoulder bare at the office? No, because it would look like you were going to a party, not business. So why would a one shoulder dress be suitable for Mass?

Thank you Patti, for such a sensible rule of thumb. I wish that was posted at the front door of our church, (especially in the summer but no so much right now!) But the OP’s sister, and mother too, should remember that they are attending the Liturgy not in a parish setting, but in a monastery. You all are visitors in the home of professed monastics, and they appreciate the modesty.
If one visits just about any Orthodox monastery, both men and women would be expected to dress appropriately: men in buttoned shirts and slacks, women in dresses or skirts and with heads covered during the whole visit, not just in the church. Some Orthodox monastery websites will list the dress codes expected, so that you have no surprises at the main door, like being refused admittance!

 

[KLJM12]

I get tired of that too. I understand that modesty is a good people, and that don’t everyone has the same problems when it comes to temptation, but I do feel like some people do take it too far (like the guy on this thread who referred to my sister’s clothing as that of a prostitute… that was harsh, bro).

I have seen people getting condemned for some pretty asinine things, which is why I am questioning my actions and posting on this thread.

Please read the comments I made. I directly said, following this claim made by another individual, that I was referring to the general dress I have noticed at Masses and not specifically your sister’s outfit. However, I did make the point that the outfit fulfilled a similar function as that of a prostitute because the analogy was possible and appropriate.

Since when is condemning inappropriate attire for Mass “harsh”? I did not say anyone was a prostitute. I made a connection between the similarities that do indeed exist between the two specified clothes. Period.

 

[fpt]

I suppose this will turn into more of a rant, so please be patient with me.

I went home for Christmas and attended the Christmas Eve Mass with my family. My younger sister, who is 19, wore a dress that she had worn to homecoming 2 years prior: black, with one shoulder bare. The length of the skirt and the chest line was nothing to complain about. I thought it was an odd choice for church, but she put a sweater over it and I assumed she would just keep the sweater on. We are parishioners at a Benedictine abbey in Pennsylvania, which means that the building is not necessarily warm, but since the temperatures did not drastically drop, it was much better than it can be. Well, right at the beginning of the Mass, she takes off the sweater. I noticed other people glancing over at her, waited for my parents to tell her to put the sweater back on since it seemed like it was becoming a distraction. I finally whispered to her to put the sweater back on to show some respect to the altar and the people present before it. She got very angry at me (I did actually mince my words this time), but she put her sweater back on for the remainder of the Mass.

She complained about it to my mother on the 26th. My mother sat me down this morning and told me it was none of my business what my sister wore. To a certain extent, that is true, but I pointed out to my mother that this was a matter of respect for the altar. My mother then cut into me by saying “You used to dress so cute. Now you dress matronly, and just because you like that does not mean that you can force that on your sister.” Note: I actually do not dress matronly, but since I gave up mini skirts and will not wear leggings as pants, and decided that longer skirts are more fun to wear than shorts in the summer, she has been on my back about how I dress. She keeps on trying to buy me clothes that are contrary to my personality and morals (I own tunics and leggings and am hassled if I do not wear them, even though they ride a fine line between modest/immodest). I know that clothing rules are not iron-clad in our culture, but I feel that there are basic rules of decency that one should follow in church, such as not exposing skin in certain areas of the body, and the shoulders can be problematic since they affect the neckline.

Okay, the rant part is over. My mother wants me to apologize to my sister. I told my mother no, since I saw nothing wrong with what I said. I asked my sister just once to put a sweater on, and she did. I did not insult her, I did not repeatedly ask her, and I did not talk condescendingly to her about it later. I told my mother that I felt what I did was right and that I was not going to apologize for something that I believed in.

Am I supposed to apologize to my sister? Was it my business to say something in the first place? Am I breaking the fourth commandment by denying my mother’s request?

In order to help you to discern, in my humble opinion, you need to question yourself about this topic. These are many questions, of course, I do not need your answers. Sorry, if I am direct, but in my humble opinion, it is very important to be like that.

Are you a scrupulous person? Are you a puritan person? Are you puritanist person? Are you a pessimist person? Are you a traditional catholic person near the SSPX and his friends? Are you a victorian person? Are you a moralist person? Are you a victorianist person? Are you an angel? Do you want to be an angel? By nature, do you have moral issues about your own body of female and of all its corollaries? Are you shame of your own body? By nature, do you have moral issues about the body of the other females and of all their corollaries? Do you agree with your human nature of female? Are you against the equal dignity of two genders? Are you in favor of the superiority of male on the female?

Why do you suppose that you are right? Could you be in the wrong way? Could you be very strict and so uptight? Are you uptight? Are you full of culturalism this topic? Are you jealous of your sister? Is she more beautiful than you?

By nature and in general, are you against the trousers for women? By nature, is it sinful for a female to wear a trousers? Do you agree with the wearing of trousers, morally speaking? Do you wear trousers at Church? Are you against the wearing of trousers at church, is it a moral issue? Are you in favor of wearing of veil at church, is it a moral issue?

Do you have nostalgia of past times about the statut of woman in the society? Do you agree with the fundamentalist christians concerning the roles of woman and of the wife? Are you in favor of quiverfull movement? Are you in favor of the theoretical providentialism? Do you agree with the statute of woman in jewish world and the in the muslim world?

What is a miniskirt? Could you define a miniskirt? Do you think that the wearing of miniskirt is sinful, per se? Are you against the wearing of miniskirt, per se?

Do you wear a bikini on the beach in summer time? Do you go to the beach in summer? Are you against the wearing of bikini? Are you against to go to the beach in summer, because they are many sinful persons? Do you wear swimsuit on the beach? What is your type of swimsuit?

ETC…;

**I could keep doing my list of questions without limit. **

** Know yourself before denouncing the behavior of the other, it is my slogan!!!**

 

[PaulinVA]

THIS. EXACTLY.

I’ve seen the the same ol’ story in numerous threads on the topic of clothing. If my only exposure to Catholic men is what I read on these forums, I’d be left with the impression that they’re all immature jerks.

I used to be very involved in a local Catholic Church–RCIA, prayer groups, Adoration, Masses, etc. If I would run into anyone from the church, say, at the grocery and would be asked “did you see So-and-so at Mass?” the answer was always NO. Church is not for people-watching. If you can’t keep your eyes on the priest, deacon, cantor, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, or downward in prayer, then stay home.

Seems to me the problem is a lot of women just don’t want to admit that they married pervs, and are looking for an excuse for their behavior.

Jala

NO, NO, NO.

How women dress in Church has nothing to do with how men perceive them. Or, at least it shouldn’t.

There is appropriate dress for the club, for work, and for Mass. Well, for everywhere. It’s not that women sometimes dress* provocatively, *it’s that they dress *inappropriately *for the occasion. A shoulder-baring homecoming dress is inappropriate for Mass. Throw a sweater on, at least.

Search the internet, and you will find that most people’s definition of “business casual” includes women’s shoulders being covered. Why? Don’t know. I think it’s because it is more casual, less formal. Maybe like a man wearing an open collared shirt with too many buttons unbuttoned. At the very least women can follow standard business casual rules.

The women’s “dress code” for Church should stand on it’s own. Not because it offends or entices men - come on, it’s Mass - but because it is simply* inappropriate.*

 

[Anne1964]

" I noticed other people glancing over at her, waited for my parents to tell her to put the sweater back on since it seemed like it was becoming a distraction. I finally whispered to her to put the sweater back on to show some respect to the altar and the people present before it. She got very angry at me (I did actually mince my words this time), but she put her sweater back on for the remainder of the Mass."

I don’t think you did anything wrong in asking your sister to put her sweater back on.

1. She is very young and may not have known any better.
2. You believed that she was causing a distraction as people were looking at her and that she was unaware of her effect on others.
3. From other info you have provided your mother sees nothing wrong with this form of dress so clearly she isn’t going to guide your sister in this matter.

You did mention that you “minced your words this time” which implies there is some history between you and your sister on the issue of how to dress and some past arguments. It sounds like you changed your tactics this time but your sister may be reacting to past experiences with you.

I have noticed as I have grown in my faith my style of dress has changed, too.

The dress code at St. Peter’s in Rome is no shorts, bare shoulders or miniskirts. This applies to both men and women. There is certainly precedent for requesting modesty in dress.

 

[Immacolata]

I will consider your suggestion to talk to my sister about why she was offended. It is clearly bothering her; I just walked into the kitchen a few minutes ago to show my family a new haircut I just got and my sister (who is usually interested in these things) would not even make eye contact with me. It’s striking a cord with her for some reason, and I think it may have to do with some bad choices she made in a past relationship that ended several months ago.

I will say, I used to be just as guilty for the exact same thing (I was infamous at my university church for appearing at a daily Mass in a miniskirt, followed by a general trend of low necklines). I was also offended when I was approached by others about it, but it is obviously an issue.

It is good that you will approach your sister and ask her why she was offended. It is also a good idea to look back to how you felt when you were approached by others about your attire. Humiliation can overcome a person and offend them greatly when others feel they are just looking out for that person. I’ve felt it myself and it isn’t enjoyable, especially when it comes from someone you love.

Hopefully you and your sister will make peace.

 

[einna]

NO, NO, NO.

How women dress in Church has nothing to do with how men perceive them. Or, at least it shouldn’t.

There is appropriate dress for the club, for work, and for Mass. Well, for everywhere. It’s not that women sometimes dress* provocatively, *it’s that they dress *inappropriately *for the occasion. A shoulder-baring homecoming dress is inappropriate for Mass. Throw a sweater on, at least.

Search the internet, and you will find that most people’s definition of “business casual” includes women’s shoulders being covered. Why? Don’t know. I think it’s because it is more casual, less formal. Maybe like a man wearing an open collared shirt with too many buttons unbuttoned. At the very least women can follow standard business casual rules.

The women’s “dress code” for Church should stand on it’s own. Not because it offends or entices men - come on, it’s Mass - but because it is simply* inappropriate.*

First, It has nothing to do with how men perceive them is correct, but no matter what women are wearing everyone probably should just stay focused on the alter and priest more so than looking around at others if they want to get the most out of Mass.

What do you think about the pastors allowing brides to wear the strapless wedding dresses to their Mass weddings? Does that cause confusion to young people on what is now appropriate to wear to Mass on Sunday? I still think it should be the parents place to teach there children those things.

Plus it is the OP thought that people were looking at her sister because of her dress, maybe her sister just great with or without the sweater, but the OP was concerned and only noticed people looking at her after she took off her sweater. People might have been noticing her from the minute she entered the church; however, I doubt any of those people can remember what she had on if asked today.

 

[Margarete_Faust]

"

I don’t think you did anything wrong in asking your sister to put her sweater back on.

1. She is very young and may not have known any better.
2. You believed that she was causing a distraction as people were looking at her and that she was unaware of her effect on others.
3. From other info you have provided your mother sees nothing wrong with this form of dress so clearly she isn’t going to guide your sister in this matter.

You did mention that you “minced your words this time” which implies there is some history between you and your sister on the issue of how to dress and some past arguments. It sounds like you changed your tactics this time but your sister may be reacting to past experiences with you.

I have noticed as I have grown in my faith my style of dress has changed, too.

The dress code at St. Peter’s in Rome is no shorts, bare shoulders or miniskirts. This applies to both men and women. There is certainly precedent for requesting modesty in dress.

You are right in that when I said I “minced my words this time”, there has been a history of the way in which we communicate with one another. I am sugary-sweet to people I do not know very well, but I am a bit rough on the edges when it comes to dealing with my family. My family has not taken my renewed perspective on Catholicism very well. My mother was very aggressive about it when I started dressing more modestly, and she encourages me and my sisters to dress sexy. I am by no means ashamed of my body… actually, I know see my body as a treasure that should be shared with only the man who is man enough to become my husband one day. I do take care of my body and have no qualms about wearing a bathing suit in front of men (but I am rethinking the bikini thing since I think bikinis reveal much more than underwear does sometimes).
My little sister is beautiful, and I think she is definitely a distraction in church, so I just want her to guard herself a little better so she does not get hurt. I was all about dressing “cute” like my mother liked until I realized that it attracts the wrong sort of people and does nothing to honor one’s own body. Perhaps I need to bring that up when I talk to her.

 

[sojo]

To quote someone I really hate to quote, “you may be right, but how did that work out for you?”

Yes, some people at Mass may have been distracted. Like how my family was distracted when 5 drunk adults sat in the first row at Christmas a few years ago and spoke loudly and obnoxiously through the whole thing, and then sang off-key on purpose. Or the time that teenager bent over to kiss the Crucifix at Good Friday and her skirt waistband slid down and we all got a good view of her thong and size 16 buttocks. Or the time that baby threw up all over the old man sitting next to the mom (not the dad) and he proceeded to dry heave, and then he tripped over the baby on the way out of the pew and the baby started wailing.

But the point is, they have probably long gotten over the distraction and moved on with their life. The good religious and your fellow parishioners have no doubt seen worse, and after all, distractions happen. Whereas you and your mother and sister are still in some strained and uncomfortable situation.

Would it really hurt to say, “I’m sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable by correcting you during Mass, its a very pretty dress and I’m sure you had nothing but good intentions to wear your pretty outfit for the Lord.” Would that be untrue?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You are right in that when I said I “minced my words this time”, there has been a history of the way in which we communicate with one another. I am sugary-sweet to people I do not know very well, but I am a bit rough on the edges when it comes to dealing with my family. My family has not taken my renewed perspective on Catholicism very well. My mother was very aggressive about it when I started dressing more modestly, and she encourages me and my sisters to dress sexy. I am by no means ashamed of my body… actually, I know see my body as a treasure that should be shared with only the man who is man enough to become my husband one day. I do take care of my body and have no qualms about wearing a bathing suit in front of men (but I am rethinking the bikini thing since I think bikinis reveal much more than underwear does sometimes).
My little sister is beautiful, and I think she is definitely a distraction in church, so I just want her to guard herself a little better so she does not get hurt. I was all about dressing “cute” like my mother liked until I realized that it attracts the wrong sort of people and does nothing to honor one’s own body. Perhaps I need to bring that up when I talk to her.

She is a young adult and you aren’t much older. You don’t need to have a talk with her about the way she dresses, and you shouldn’t. Don’t do to her what your mother has done to you when it comes to clothes.

 

[Rence]

I will consider your suggestion to talk to my sister about why she was offended. It is clearly bothering her; I just walked into the kitchen a few minutes ago to show my family a new haircut I just got and my sister (who is usually interested in these things) would not even make eye contact with me. It’s striking a cord with her for some reason, and I think it may have to do with some bad choices she made in a past relationship that ended several months ago.

I will say, I used to be just as guilty for the exact same thing (I was infamous at my university church for appearing at a daily Mass in a miniskirt, followed by a general trend of low necklines). I was also offended when I was approached by others about it, but it is obviously an issue.

I don’t know your or your sister. But only from what you wrote, it appears that you called out your sister on behavior she knew was not appropriate. You told her to put her sweater back on, and she did it. If she really thought she was right, she wouldn’t have complied and then complained to your mother behind your back. She would have ignored you or told you that she was hot, whatever. She’s further trying to irk you by ignoring you, and trying to provoke a confrontation. I would just act as you normally do, and ignore any attempts by her to argue. I wouldn’t apologize to her for telling her to put her sweater on because she KNOWS it wasn’t appropriate. Baring shoulders at Mass is inappropriate. She wasn’t at the prom, nor was she at the office. She was at Mass. If she pushes the issue, why not involve you family priest. He can set her straight.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I don’t know your or your sister. But only from what you wrote, it appears that you called out your sister on behavior she knew was not appropriate. You told her to put her sweater back on, and she did it. If she really thought she was right, she wouldn’t have complied and then complained to your mother behind your back. She would have ignored you or told you that she was hot, whatever. She’s further trying to irk you by ignoring you, and trying to provoke a confrontation. I would just act as you normally do, and ignore any attempts by her to argue. I wouldn’t apologize to her for telling her to put her sweater on because she KNOWS it wasn’t appropriate. Baring shoulders at Mass is inappropriate. She wasn’t at the prom, nor was she at the office. She was at Mass. If she pushes the issue, why not involve you family priest. He can set her straight.

Getting the priest involved over an exposed shoulder on an otherwise modest dress? Really? The incident is done and over, why should the OP continue to drive at this point?

And even if the priest does agree to “set her straight” what would come of that? The younger sis probably wouldn’t go to mass any more, wouldn’t change the way she dresses, and the OP will have seriously and maybe irreparably hurt her relationship with her mom and her sister. Over what? A dress? Yeah, bad idea.

 

[Rence]

Getting the priest involved over an exposed shoulder on an otherwise modest dress? Really? The incident is done and over, why should the OP continue to drive at this point?

And even if the priest does agree to “set her straight” what would come of that? The younger sis probably wouldn’t go to mass any more, wouldn’t change the way she dresses, and the OP will have seriously and maybe irreparably hurt her relationship with her mom and her sister. Over what? A dress? Yeah, bad idea.

If it comes down to her mother insisting that she apologizes for that which we know is right and correct, yes, I would involve the family priest. It can’t be done and over if the mother is telling her to apologize and the sister is parading around the house with 'tude. If OP can ignore her sister’s nonsense and her mother’s lack of prudence, yeah, the best thing for all is to move forward. But I certainly wouldn’t be forced to lie by ‘apologizing’ as if she were wrong, and lil sis is in the right. One of the reasons why Catholics are having such problems right now is that they don’t take their faith seriously. If the sister at this young age is thumbing her nose as the Church by baring skin in Church, it will only get worse. Yeah, OP can’t stop that from happening, but I wouldn’t let mom force me to lie to coddle little sister.