Dress code in church/life

[Rence]

Getting the priest involved over an exposed shoulder on an otherwise modest dress? Really?

And actually yeah. Gramma called me out on improper dress by having our family priest set me straight when I was 12. I assure you, I didn’t run away from home, and I didn’t cut my gramma off. What I did was never wear shorts to Church again.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

And actually yeah. Gramma called me out on improper dress by having our family priest set me straight when I was 12. I assure you, I didn’t run away from home, and I didn’t cut my gramma off. What I did was never wear shorts to Church again.

You were 12 and your grandma was in a position of authority over you.

What do you think the odds are that the mom and sis would agree to talk to the priest? Really, this is a non issue, the OP has said all she can, now it’s time to mind her own business.

 

[robwar]

Thank you Patti, for such a sensible rule of thumb. I wish that was posted at the front door of our church, (especially in the summer but no so much right now!) But the OP’s sister, and mother too, should remember that they are attending the Liturgy not in a parish setting, but in a monastery. You all are visitors in the home of professed monastics, and they appreciate the modesty.
If one visits just about any Orthodox monastery, both men and women would be expected to dress appropriately: men in buttoned shirts and slacks, women in dresses or skirts and with heads covered during the whole visit, not just in the church. Some Orthodox monastery websites will list the dress codes expected, so that you have no surprises at the main door, like being refused admittance!

This is the nicest well put post of all. Wearing an off shoulder dress to Mass is inappropriate period. This is not a party or a show. Taking off the sweater was a sign of attention getting. There seems to be some kind of dynamics between Op , sister and mom but the sister did put on the sweater when asked. At Christmas Mass I attended, I saw a large number of people just in blue jeans and one sweat pants! (not in good condition). I think there is a fine line to come as you are or have and making an effort to be nicely and modestly dressed in Church. It just seems like Christmas Mass should be more of an occasion to make an effort in drww

 

[benjammin]

Some men would still be tempted to sin, because they would be imagining what was under the burka.

So true, thats my point. Men look at beautiful women no matter what. Not saying that this allows women to dress like skanky ho bags, but sometimes I feel like people get a little too scrupulous about this

 

[fpt]

For Margarete Faust;

Simple questions:

How have you told her, very loudly, so quietly…etc? How was your tone of voice? Were you like a moralist person, during this ask to your sister?

What would you have done if your sister had not put her sweater on her back? If she had refused to put her sweater: What would have been your reaction? Would you have asked again during the mass?

In general, are you ready to ask this type of requests to all women, at church if you decide that their garments are not in link with your acception of modesty, of the right way…etc?

I know, I do my advocate of evil with my questions, but you seems to me very uptight, very strict, only in my humble opinion.

 

[Irishmom2]

Is it suitable to wear one shoulder bare at the office? No, because it would look like you were going to a party, not business. So why would a one shoulder dress be suitable for Mass?

I wonder that myself when I see all the wedding dresses that are strapless…

 

[Irishmom2]

There seems to be some kind of dynamics between Op , sister and mom

I agree that this is the real issue here.

 

[Margarete_Faust]

For Margarete Faust;

Simple questions:

How have you told her, very loudly, so quietly…etc? How was your tone of voice? Were you like a moralist person, during this ask to your sister?

What would you have done if your sister had not put her sweater on her back? If she had refused to put her sweater: What would have been your reaction? Would you have asked again during the mass?

In general, are you ready to ask this type of requests to all women, at church if you decide that their garments are not in link with your acception of modesty, of the right way…etc?

I know, I do my advocate of evil with my questions, but you seems to me very uptight, very strict, only in my humble opinion.

1. I whispered it to her, using the words “[sister’s name] put your sweater back on!”
   She responded, “Why?”
   I said, “One bare shoulder is not appropriate for Mass.”
   “But I’m hot.” (she meant “warm”… she’s not the type to announce she is beautiful)
   “This is not a warm church. I find that hard to believe.”
   She gave me a really angry look (it was only then that I realized that this was a big deal to her), but put the sweater on.
   I am not certain how my tone of voice sounded to her, but from my end it did not sound harsh or condescending. I was speaking in a whisper while music was playing for us to start the Gloria, so I am certain no one around us heard the exchange of words.
2. I did put thought into what I would have done if she did not put the sweater on. I am positive I would not have pursued the matter further. I had actually expected my parents to step in when she took off the sweater in the first place since they had always taught us that strappy and strapless dresses can only be worn in church if one wears a sweater on top. I thought I was extending my parents’ guidance at a moment when they were unable to (since my other two sisters were between my lil sis and my mom on the pew). If I had even been sitting further down the pew, I would have left the matter alone since addressing the matter would have caused a bit of a scene. But I was sitting right next to my sister, and my mother was not. I was doing what I thought my mother, based off of how she had raised us to act in church, would have done. My mother’s reaction makes it clear to me that I was wrong in assuming that my mother was in agreement with my perspective.
   At the same time, I would not have asked her again during Mass to put her sweater back on. She is 19. If she were 13, I would have asked her a second time since she would have been less aware of what her actions do in relation to the other people at Mass. She is aware of what wearing a bare shoulder dress in church is not encouraged for modesty and respect to the altar. I would have allowed her to use her free will as an adult on that matter since I trust her intentions. She’s not a minx, mind you. I also do not think that asking her to change her behavior once means that I am abusing her free will. I was trying to remind her that how she dresses can honor or offend God. If she finds nothing wrong with her behavior, I guess I cannot do any more.
3. Actually, I would not ask this request of another woman who is outside of my family. I am from the North and live in the South. In the South, a lot of women are wearing strappy, low-cut sundresses to Mass in the summer all the way up to late autumn. It is none of my business how they dress, especially since it seems to be more of a cultural difference (yes, there can be cultural differences in this vast country of ours). But, if I were bringing a female friend to Mass for the first time, I would have strongly suggested to said friend beforehand to have a long enough skirt, and to cover the shoulder and chest areas with a scarf or a sweater. I have never said a word to anyone about how they dress until this Christmas Eve, and I intend to restrict it to family members and only strongly recommend it to guests of mine who come with me to Church.
4. The funny thing is, I am not uptight and strict. I don’t wear ankle-length skirts and turtlenecks. I am constantly approached by my own Catholic friends outside of church and asked to cover up the chest area, which I do in spite of my feelings that I am not revealing much at all (I always carry a scarf around since the request seems to come too often). I have, however, eliminated certain clothing from my life, even for purposes on going to a club. I have attracted the wrong people in the past with the things I wore, and I paid heavily for it. I realize that only bad things can come to a woman who does not guard herself, because she has to guard herself. I also believe that a woman’s manner of dress in church can serve to glorify God, and her clothing in everyday life sends a message to the people she meets. My lil sis is usually in jeans and a sweatshirt. The fact she put on a sexy dress for Mass was a strange change in her appearance that does not even reflect how she is on a daily basis.

 

[MaryT777]

You are right in that when I said I “minced my words this time”, there has been a history of the way in which we communicate with one another. I am sugary-sweet to people I do not know very well, but I am a bit rough on the edges when it comes to dealing with my family. My family has not taken my renewed perspective on Catholicism very well. My mother was very aggressive about it when I started dressing more modestly, and she encourages me and my sisters to dress sexy. I am by no means ashamed of my body… actually, I know see my body as a treasure that should be shared with only the man who is man enough to become my husband one day. I do take care of my body and have no qualms about wearing a bathing suit in front of men (but I am rethinking the bikini thing since I think bikinis reveal much more than underwear does sometimes).
My little sister is beautiful, and I think she is definitely a distraction in church, so I just want her to guard herself a little better so she does not get hurt. I was all about dressing “cute” like my mother liked until I realized that it attracts the wrong sort of people and does nothing to honor one’s own body. Perhaps I need to bring that up when I talk to her.

Mary: That is an excellent idea. Maybe she will understand better then your point of view.
Peace in Christ.
Mary.

 

[einna]

Mary: That is an excellent idea. Maybe she will understand better then your point of view.
Peace in Christ.
Mary.

Yes it is a great idea. I admire your willingness to see you might treat family differently. Remember your family might not agree with how you feel but they should respect you feel that way, as you should respect they are not going to change the way they think for you.

I know you don’t want to see your sister get hurt, but sometimes that is just life and we all have to learn lessons are own way. If you haven’t come across as pushy then I think in time your sister and mother will see they made this a bigger deal than it needed to be. It certainly isn’t something that should cause I long time rift between you. Good luck.

 

[epan]

Anyway, some prostitutes dress like librarians, nurses or policewomen, which kinda proves that what we see is either appropriate or inappropriate in our own heads.

Agreed. What is appropriate in the beach in Hawaii is not the same as what’s appropriate in a business meeting or in church. Just depends on context. It might be inappropriate to wear anything at all at a nudist colony. You wouldn’t wear baggy or loose swimwear when competing in a swimming event.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

1. I whispered it to her, using the words “[sister’s name] put your sweater back on!”
   She responded, “Why?”
   I said, “One bare shoulder is not appropriate for Mass.”
   “But I’m hot.” (she meant “warm”… she’s not the type to announce she is beautiful)
   “This is not a warm church. I find that hard to believe.”
   She gave me a really angry look (it was only then that I realized that this was a big deal to her), but put the sweater on.
   I am not certain how my tone of voice sounded to her, but from my end it did not sound harsh or condescending. I was speaking in a whisper while music was playing for us to start the Gloria, so I am certain no one around us heard the exchange of words.
2. I did put thought into what I would have done if she did not put the sweater on. I am positive I would not have pursued the matter further. I had actually expected my parents to step in when she took off the sweater in the first place since they had always taught us that strappy and strapless dresses can only be worn in church if one wears a sweater on top. I thought I was extending my parents’ guidance at a moment when they were unable to (since my other two sisters were between my lil sis and my mom on the pew). If I had even been sitting further down the pew, I would have left the matter alone since addressing the matter would have caused a bit of a scene. But I was sitting right next to my sister, and my mother was not. I was doing what I thought my mother, based off of how she had raised us to act in church, would have done. My mother’s reaction makes it clear to me that I was wrong in assuming that my mother was in agreement with my perspective.
   At the same time, I would not have asked her again during Mass to put her sweater back on. She is 19. If she were 13, I would have asked her a second time since she would have been less aware of what her actions do in relation to the other people at Mass. She is aware of what wearing a bare shoulder dress in church is not encouraged for modesty and respect to the altar. I would have allowed her to use her free will as an adult on that matter since I trust her intentions. She’s not a minx, mind you. I also do not think that asking her to change her behavior once means that I am abusing her free will. I was trying to remind her that how she dresses can honor or offend God. If she finds nothing wrong with her behavior, I guess I cannot do any more.
3. Actually, I would not ask this request of another woman who is outside of my family. I am from the North and live in the South. In the South, a lot of women are wearing strappy, low-cut sundresses to Mass in the summer all the way up to late autumn. It is none of my business how they dress, especially since it seems to be more of a cultural difference (yes, there can be cultural differences in this vast country of ours). But, if I were bringing a female friend to Mass for the first time, I would have strongly suggested to said friend beforehand to have a long enough skirt, and to cover the shoulder and chest areas with a scarf or a sweater. I have never said a word to anyone about how they dress until this Christmas Eve, and I intend to restrict it to family members and only strongly recommend it to guests of mine who come with me to Church.
4. The funny thing is, I am not uptight and strict. I don’t wear ankle-length skirts and turtlenecks. I am constantly approached by my own Catholic friends outside of church and asked to cover up the chest area, which I do in spite of my feelings that I am not revealing much at all (I always carry a scarf around since the request seems to come too often). I have, however, eliminated certain clothing from my life, even for purposes on going to a club. I have attracted the wrong people in the past with the things I wore, and I paid heavily for it. I realize that only bad things can come to a woman who does not guard herself, because she has to guard herself. I also believe that a woman’s manner of dress in church can serve to glorify God, and her clothing in everyday life sends a message to the people she meets. My lil sis is usually in jeans and a sweatshirt. The fact she put on a sexy dress for Mass was a strange change in her appearance that does not even reflect how she is on a daily basis.

Will you please date my 21 year old son?

 

[Sky_Pilot]

Whether we like it or not – whether we realize it or not – everything that we say, is heard by somebody, and they learn something from our words; everything we do, is seen by somebody, and they learn something by our actions.
We teach – constantly, consciously or unconsciously, intentionally or unintentionally, didactically or by the example of our lives.
This includes our attire and our deportment.
A child learns first, best and most at home, and I thank God that my father taught my brother and I how to be gentlemen, and how to respect women and treat them as ladies – but he taught with the example of his life, and we learned by what we saw and what we heard, not by any formal lesson.
And so it is with our chosen attire, whether for Mass, whether for a trip to the grocery store, whether to go out and give the yard a haircut.
Unfortunately, we are but human; the lessons we may intend, aren’t always the lessons perceived, and those lessons we give unintentionally can sometimes cause ourselves or others, a discomfort.
I’m using the Asbestos method myself: I’m just doing it as-best-os I can.
(I know, I know, don’t quit your day job …)

 

[Debora123]

Your mother is absolutely right.

 

[severus68]

THIS. EXACTLY.

I’ve seen the the same ol’ story in numerous threads on the topic of clothing. If my only exposure to Catholic men is what I read on these forums, I’d be left with the impression that they’re all immature jerks.

I used to be very involved in a local Catholic Church–RCIA, prayer groups, Adoration, Masses, etc. If I would run into anyone from the church, say, at the grocery and would be asked “did you see So-and-so at Mass?” the answer was always NO. Church is not for people-watching. If you can’t keep your eyes on the priest, deacon, cantor, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, or downward in prayer, then stay home.

Seems to me the problem is a lot of women just don’t want to admit that they married pervs, and are looking for an excuse for their behavior.

Jala

Very well said. It would also appear from similar threads that men have no control and are unable to see a woman as a person.

 

[Rico_S]

1. I whispered it to her, using the words “[sister’s name] put your sweater back on!”
   She responded, “Why?”
   I said, “One bare shoulder is not appropriate for Mass.”
   “But I’m hot.” (she meant “warm”… she’s not the type to announce she is beautiful)
   "This is not a warm church. I find that hard to believe."

Perhaps this is the problem. You essentially called her a liar and assumed she has some sort of alternative motivation for taking off the sweater. Do you not see a problem with that?

I can see why she would be irritated.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Although I can’t say who is necessarily in the wrong, I would at least talk to the sister about it. Tell her that you thought her clothing was causing scandal. After all, you mentioned people looking over with some less than pleasant looks. And you were also looking out for the Blessed Sacrament, which is always commendable.

But, maybe you two disagree on what is modest and what is not. That could be something that you two discuss and mention what other people in the church because it does matter if it will cause distractions.

Now about the mother, she needs to butt out of how you dress. Since when is being matronly a bad thing? Tell her to cut it out and be more vigilant about sin than appearances.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

s.

Now about the mother, she needs to butt out of how you dress.

And the OP needs to butt out of how her sister dresses. It is no more her business than her clothes are her mother’s.

Clothing is a sensitive subject for women. If these three want to get along they will have to show respect for the fact that they are all going to make their own clothing choices, even if the others don’t like them.

I also agree with the poster above you who pointed out that the OP called her sister a liar. That might be a big part of this conflict.

 

[Jala]

How women dress in Church has nothing to do with how men perceive them. Or, at least it shouldn’t.

Not my point at all, but let’s go with it anyway.

There is appropriate dress for the club, for work, and for Mass. Well, for everywhere. It’s not that women sometimes dress* provocatively, *it’s that they dress *inappropriately *for the occasion. A shoulder-baring homecoming dress is inappropriate for Mass. Throw a sweater on, at least.

Then you need to talk to the “disrespectful to wear jeans to Mass” people. They seem to think that your devotion and piety is directly proportional to the formality of your clothes. If that were true, then the young lady in the prom dress is quite possibly the best Christian ever. Oh, and congratulations on being elected King of What’s Appropriate. Can you give me advice on what to wear tonight?

Search the internet, and you will find that most people’s definition of “business casual” includes women’s shoulders being covered. Why? Don’t know. I think it’s because it is more casual, less formal. Maybe like a man wearing an open collared shirt with too many buttons unbuttoned. At the very least women can follow standard business casual rules.

I wear my pajamas to work. And to the grocery. And to run errands. In fact, I’m wearing them right now, after working this morning, and visiting my horse at the farm, and doing some shopping.

But I digress, and I stand by what I said. For all I know, the priest at my local parish could have had the Chippendale dancers strip during Mass while riding elephants, but I’ll never know because I don’t look at anyone else during Mass. I didn’t see what So-and-so was wearing, or how cute her daughter is, or if her husband was at Mass, or even if SHE was at Mass. Because I’m not looking at people. You know, the way it’s supposed to be.

Jala

 

[fpt]

For Margarete Faust

In my humble opinion:

You seem to misunderstand, in general, the differences between the modesty of garments and the decency of garments. The modesty is for yourself, the decency is for the other persons. Thus, your acception of the notion of immodesty is only for yourself and not for your sister: you have no natural moral authority on her for asking her of respecting your moral point of view about the praxis of modesty. Your are only your sister, not her parents. We are in XXI century, the clanism, the superiority of group on the person about the modesty is not the rule, it is not very natural and not very catholic.
About the decency, you have no natural moral authority on her for asking her of respecting your moral point of view about the praxis of decency, except if and only if her garments are objectively indecent. The issue is the definition of what is objectively indecent and here, you recognized yourself that this notion is relative because in function of culture. A certain level of relativism is morally acceptable, he seems to me. By nature, the notion of decency is not for God at Church, but only for other persons (human beings), in order to avoid the distraction, the temptation…etc.

Your words “This is not a warm church. I find that hard to believe.” Why did not you believe your sister? Why this type of negative presumption about her explanations? What do you know about her own physiology?

You seem to have catholic friends who you asked to cover up your chest area, which you do in spite of your feelings that you are not revealing much at all (you always carry a scarf around since the request seems to come too often). Your catholic friends are very odd, very uptight, very strict. Why do you obey them? Are you a free woman? Are you a submissive woman? In my opinion, you are influenced by them directly and indirectly: are you aware about that. For you it is your own business, but your sister, it should be not.

Questions for discerning:

Are you a scrupulous person? Are you a puritan person? Are you puritanist person? Are you a pessimist person? Are you a traditional catholic person near the SSPX and his friends? Are you a victorian person? Are you a moralist person? Are you a victorianist person? Are you an angel? Do you want to be an angel?
**
Why do you suppose that you are right? Could you be in the wrong way?** By nature and in general, are you against the trousers for women? Are you against the wearing of trousers at church, is it a moral issue? Are you in favor of wearing of veil at church, is it a moral issue?

What is a miniskirt? Could you define a miniskirt? Do you think that the wearing of miniskirt, not at church, is sinful, per se? Are you against the wearing of miniskirt, per se?