Dress code in church/life

[LightBound]

Although I can’t say who is necessarily in the wrong, I would at least talk to the sister about it. Tell her that you thought her clothing was causing scandal. After all, you mentioned people looking over with some less than pleasant looks. And you were also looking out for the Blessed Sacrament, which is always commendable.

But, maybe you two disagree on what is modest and what is not. That could be something that you two discuss and mention what other people in the church because it does matter if it will cause distractions.

Now about the mother, she needs to butt out of how you dress. Since when is being matronly a bad thing? Tell her to cut it out and be more vigilant about sin than appearances.

Since when is being matronly a bad thing?

Since the time young women decided they didn’t want to look like an old dowager!!

websters.yourdictionary.com/matronly

thefreedictionary.com/matronly

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/matronly

In the UK, the Queen is considering to be “matronly” in appearance. I think more young women in their late teens to late 20’s prefer to dress and look more like Duchess Catherine instead. In the US, it the word “matronly” tends to bring to mind the image of a very large, frumpy older women in a dowdy sack-like housecoat with a disdainful, “tsk-tsk” look on her face.

Here’s a good and humorous example of matronly I found while searching with the words “matronly dress”: 4.bp.blogspot.com/_0wC4DQVP0yA/SqmfcyThnII/AAAAAAAABJs/Z3waaR_GgQk/s400/untitled.bmp

 

[peacoat]

You almost had me until this post. It’s disgusting

1. I whispered it to her, using the words “[sister’s name] put your sweater back on!”
   She responded, “Why?”
   I said, “One bare shoulder is not appropriate for Mass.”
   “But I’m hot.” (she meant “warm”… she’s not the type to announce she is beautiful)
   “This is not a warm church. I find that hard to believe.”
   She gave me a really angry look (it was only then that I realized that this was a big deal to her), but put the sweater on.
   I am not certain how my tone of voice sounded to her, but from my end it did not sound harsh or condescending. I was speaking in a whisper while music was playing for us to start the Gloria, so I am certain no one around us heard the exchange of words.

Since when did you know how your sister feels. We can easily feel hot in a cool place due to being uncomfortable, and some people are more sensitive to body heat.

She gave you an angry face, probably because she thought you were going to make a nasty stink about it.

. My lil sis is usually in jeans and a sweatshirt. The fact she put on a sexy dress for Mass was a strange change in her appearance that does not even reflect how she is on a daily basis.

This sounds more like petty jelousy that your sister owns a nice dress that in the first paragraph wasn’t all that sexy, just a bit off. She wore a NICE dress to mass (it sounds like jeans wouldn’t of flown in your family, either)

You come off as petty and silly and unaprochable…which is why she would of told your mother and not you.

I think you should apologize…even if it’s for basically calling her a liar when she said she was hot.

 

[Margarete_Faust]

For Margarete Faust

In my humble opinion:

You seem to misunderstand, in general, the differences between the modesty of garments and the decency of garments. The modesty is for yourself, the decency is for the other persons. Thus, your acception of the notion of immodesty is only for yourself and not for your sister: you have no natural moral authority on her for asking her of respecting your moral point of view about the praxis of modesty. Your are only your sister, not her parents. We are in XXI century, the clanism, the superiority of group on the person about the modesty is not the rule, it is not very natural and not very catholic.
About the decency, you have no natural moral authority on her for asking her of respecting your moral point of view about the praxis of decency, except if and only if her garments are objectively indecent. The issue is the definition of what is objectively indecent and here, you recognized yourself that this notion is relative because in function of culture. A certain level of relativism is morally acceptable, he seems to me. By nature, the notion of decency is not for God at Church, but only for other persons (human beings), in order to avoid the distraction, the temptation…etc.

Your words “This is not a warm church. I find that hard to believe.” Why did not you believe your sister? Why this type of negative presumption about her explanations? What do you know about her own physiology?

You seem to have catholic friends who you asked to cover up your chest area, which you do in spite of your feelings that you are not revealing much at all (you always carry a scarf around since the request seems to come too often). Your catholic friends are very odd, very uptight, very strict. Why do you obey them? Are you a free woman? Are you a submissive woman? In my opinion, you are influenced by them directly and indirectly: are you aware about that. For you it is your own business, but your sister, it should be not.

Questions for discerning:

Are you a scrupulous person? Are you a puritan person? Are you puritanist person? Are you a pessimist person? Are you a traditional catholic person near the SSPX and his friends? Are you a victorian person? Are you a moralist person? Are you a victorianist person? Are you an angel? Do you want to be an angel?
**
Why do you suppose that you are right? Could you be in the wrong way?** By nature and in general, are you against the trousers for women? Are you against the wearing of trousers at church, is it a moral issue? Are you in favor of wearing of veil at church, is it a moral issue?

What is a miniskirt? Could you define a miniskirt? Do you think that the wearing of miniskirt, not at church, is sinful, per se? Are you against the wearing of miniskirt, per se?

You brought up some good points to think over. I do have a question about your questions for discerning: what is your definition of “victorian”? I find that that word tend to branch off in a hundred different directions.

 

[Margarete_Faust]

You almost had me until this post. It’s disgusting

Since when did you know how your sister feels. We can easily feel hot in a cool place due to being uncomfortable, and some people are more sensitive to body heat.

She gave you an angry face, probably because she thought you were going to make a nasty stink about it.

This sounds more like petty jelousy that your sister owns a nice dress that in the first paragraph wasn’t all that sexy, just a bit off. She wore a NICE dress to mass (it sounds like jeans wouldn’t of flown in your family, either)

You come off as petty and silly and unaprochable…which is why she would of told your mother and not you.

I think you should apologize…even if it’s for basically calling her a liar when she said she was hot.

I would suggest that someone who believes that the moral decision would be to be more gentle with my words should follow his/her own advice.

As for that dress, I was present when she tried it on and bought it. I thought it was nice for a homecoming dance. I just never imagined she would ever choose to wear it in church. Not all homecoming dresses are church-appropriate. Just because I think attire in church deserves special attention does not mean I require that of daily life. People should dress to honor themselves and their bodies, and the definition of what is appropriate does vary among individuals, but there is a point where things are taken too far.

Perhaps that fact that I implied she was lying is worthy of an apology, but I stand by my idea that she should put her sweater back on. I should have suggested it more so than “demanded it” (the request was more in the form of a command), but like I said, I was trying to whisper it quickly right before the Gloria and did not have the option to review every approach to the situation (especially concerning what was most delicate). She is my sister and knows me; I am not trying to purposefully put her down, but she is 19 and still very sensitive, I get that too. Part of the reason I started the thread is because there are clearly contradicting factors at work here that were difficult to work back then and have a strange aftermath now.

 

[severus68]

Since when is being matronly a bad thing?

Since the time young women decided they didn’t want to look like an old dowager!!

websters.yourdictionary.com/matronly

thefreedictionary.com/matronly

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/matronly

In the UK, the Queen is considering to be “matronly” in appearance. I think more young women in their late teens to late 20’s prefer to dress and look more like Duchess Catherine instead. In the US, it the word “matronly” tends to bring to mind the image of a very large, frumpy older women in a dowdy sack-like housecoat with a disdainful, “tsk-tsk” look on her face.

Here’s a good and humorous example of matronly I found while searching with the words “matronly dress”: 4.bp.blogspot.com/_0wC4DQVP0yA/SqmfcyThnII/AAAAAAAABJs/Z3waaR_GgQk/s400/untitled.bmp

Yes, agreed. I would think no one would like to be seen as matronly except perhaps a hospital matron?

 

[fpt]

You brought up some good points to think over. I do have a question about your questions for discerning: what is your definition of “victorian”? I find that that word tend to branch off in a hundred different directions.

Before all, you need to understand that there is a difference between a victorianist person, and a victorian person.

1. A victorianist person elaborates the doctrine (the doxa) about the nature of human beings with all the corollaries. She can be a philosopher, a theologian, a thinker, a lawyer (a jurist) who write papers, books, thesis about the values of humanity, the links between person and groups, her views on the natural moral law, the role of males, the role of females, the role of husband with his rights, his duties and his obligations, the role of wife with her rights, her duties and her obligations, the role and the function of marriage, the morality of corporeity, thus a doxa on the morality. A victorian person practices a such doctrine, consciously or unconsciously, directly or indirectly. She is not a thinker of this doctrine. This practice is coming from the culture, from the education of family, from the religious education, from the religious mentality…etc. The culturalism has to be purified by the Faith and the Reason.
   Each one has the moral obligation to discern for being free in its own choice in avoiding the wrong doctrines and the wrong praxis. A doxa can be morally wrong by nature and by essence, the same for a praxis. A doxa can be only wrong that on some aspects, and a praxis can be morally wrong, only, in function of circumstances. Each one needs to identify it and thus to choose its actions and its thoughts.

 

[fpt]

You brought up some good points to think over. I do have a question about your questions for discerning: what is your definition of “victorian”?

I find that that word tend to branch off in a hundred different directions.

** I AGREE WITH YOU, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO HAVE THE NICE ACCEPTION OF THIS DOXA.
**

1. In link with your topic, I mean the moral view, in practice, concerning the body of female, thus the corporeity of woman, her body with all the corollaries, also, the debate about the level of immorality of immodesty and of indecency, the views about the garments at church, at work, at parties, on the beach (the bikini?), the female garments in general, the potential sins for men who are around, the veil at church, the veil in the street…etc. Actually, all turns around the statute of woman with her rights, her duties and her obligations in link with the natural moral law.

By " victorian " I mean a melting pot (a mix) between the catharism, the fideism, the quiestism, the jansenism, the puritanism, the machism, the sexism from male… (neo victorianism and neo puritanism)… all doxa or praxis from the past that had a negative view of female, of her body. Doctrine and praxis against the equal dignity of two gender; a doctrine and a praxis in favor of the superiority of male on the female.

What is the hard core of victorianism and of neo victorianism??? Not simple.

 

[HouseArrest]

What is your goal? To decide who to blame? Through your posts it doesn’t seem like it.

You want your sister to have a healthy sense of herself and her body. She shouldn’t wear inappropriate attire to church, but she shouldn’t be ashamed of her body, either.

Just talk to your sister. Tell her you hope she understands why it is important to dress modestly and attractively at the same time. Tell her it is a difficult line for all women to toe, and that you have faith in her to figure it out. That will do more to encourage her to dress appropriately than telling her to put her sweater on.

I can guess what probably happened with the Christmas Mass dress. Yes, we all have appropriate Mass clothing. Christmas is a bit different. We want our dress to be a little more festive. To go out and buy ANOTHER Christmas specific outfit for one Mass is cost and time prohibitive. She was probably trying to do that with what she already owned. How do I know? My daughter wore her semi formal dance dress to Christmas Eve Mass and added a pair of tights and wore a sweater to make it a little more modest. It was still not quite right. Oh well!!

 

[hwriggles4]

Margarete Faust:

Reading this post, I think you did the right thing. This summer, two pastors I know put articles in their bulletins about church etiquette, which included attire. By the way, I do live in the South too (Texas), where it can be 90 degrees outside for even the 10:00 a.m. Sunday Mass in June.

Margarete, I’m sure Fr. Dwight Longnecker of Greenville, South Carolina would agree that you did the right thing too. Quite frankly, if I lived in the Spartanburg-Greenville area, I would become a parishioner at his parish the first Sunday I arrived.

Margarete, it sounds like you are able to choose your style of dress without being frumpy and going to extremes. Maybe you can introduce your sister to Pure Fashion, or you two can watch Leah Darrow’s testimony together (I haven’t seen it, since she does one specifically for women, and I’m a man). I think her testimony is available to order through Catholic Answers, since she is a Catholic Answers speaker.

Thanks for helping protect your sister from unwanted attention, and thanks for setting the bar high.