Driving fast and scrupulosity

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wjp984 said:
The church does specifically forbid stealing though and downloading music illegally is stealing so I disagree with you saying that illegally downloading music is a morally neutral act. And the its not a sin unless you get caught would never work since you can’t hide anything from God. I just don’t believe speeding to be sinful. Now I have heard the phrase its not illegal unless you get caught jokingly by my dad when he teases me about being afraid of making an illegal u-turn. My dad does them all the time. I just tell my dad that if he wants to pay the ticket then I’ll make the illegal u-turn. I have a fear of making illegal u-trns since they take a long time and it is too hard to spot cops in the area since there are too many seconds of vulnerability when you are in the illegal act. My only excuse is the I’m from out of town and am lost which actually has worked for me before so occasionally I will break traffic laws in areas unknown to me. My dad speeds and does illegal u-turns and stuff all the time since he says the opportunity costs of getting a ticket once and a while are worth less than the time he saves. My dad is an executive so he makes enough money for this to be true.
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You misunderstand me: downloading music in and of itself is morally neutral. What makes it “stealing” is the fact that the law forbids doing so without permission from the rightful owner.

Likewise, driving fast is not, in and of itself, immoral. Other than recklessness, what makes it immoral is whether the law forbids it. To drive faster than the posted speed limit is to break the law – and we are morally obligated to obey just laws.

The very fact that you have to look for a cop before you do something implies knowledge that you are doing something illegal, and since it’s not unjust to forbid driving above a posted speed, it stands to reason that deliberately breaking that law is immoral.

The only questiont that remains, in my mind, is of the gravity of the act.

Peace,
 
The law does not need to tell me something is immoral or that it is stealing. How can one not realize illegally downloading music is stealing. I used to do this a lot and I knew it was stealing but I didn’t care since I wanted the music. Just like the law does not need to tell me movie hopping as in paying to see one movie but going to see two is stealing. I used to do that as well and knew I was stealing and didn’t care. I of course rationalized it and used all sorts of justifications on why I should be able to illlegally download music or see two movies but I knew it was still stealing. Stealing however is sinful and that is different.

I also know that I am doing something illegal when I speed and break the traffic laws. However, I don’t think speeding is sinful and I can care less what the law thinks since I know I am not sinning. I am deterred from breaking the law excessively due to the fines and penalties. However, God has nothing to do with it.

I’ll throw a hypothetical at you. What if you are on your way to mass but you have two choices. One is to go a little faster and get to mass on time and the other is to follow the speed limit and sin by being late to mass. What do you choose?
 
wjp984 said:
The law does not need to tell me something is immoral or that it is stealing. How can one not realize illegally downloading music is stealing. I used to do this a lot and I knew it was stealing but I didn’t care since I wanted the music. Just like the law does not need to tell me movie hopping as in paying to see one movie but going to see two is stealing. I used to do that as well and knew I was stealing and didn’t care. I of course rationalized it and used all sorts of justifications on why I should be able to illlegally download music or see two movies but I knew it was still stealing. Stealing however is sinful and that is different.

I also know that I am doing something illegal when I speed and break the traffic laws. However, I don’t think speeding is sinful and I can care less what the law thinks since I know I am not sinning. I am deterred from breaking the law excessively due to the fines and penalties. However, God has nothing to do with it.

I’ll throw a hypothetical at you. What if you are on your way to mass but you have two choices. One is to go a little faster and get to mass on time and the other is to follow the speed limit and sin by being late to mass. What do you choose?
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Your argument is disintegrating.
  1. How is it stealing to download music if the law permits it or doesn’t forbid it? If you post in the AAA forum, you’re likely to get answers that support my assertion that the download is not necessarily sinful. At worst, it’s ambiguous.
  2. “I don’t think speeding is sinful” is STILL not enough to support your position. You have repeatedly attempted to support the position “I don’t think speeding is sinful” with the argument “I don’t think speeding is sinful”. By what authority do you make this statement? At the very least, do you have a rationale here, or just your opinion?
  3. Can you please show me where it says it is sinful to be a few minutes late to Mass? Even if I show up right before Communion, there’s no sin there – I can go to a later Mass to fulfill my obligation.
Peace,
Dante
 
I wish I had more time to argue with you on this topic. I’m exhausted from my studies today so I’ll keep it simple. It is my opinion that speeding is not sinful. It is the conservative priest at my school’s opinon that speeding is not sinful. If you can find me one document by the pope or even one homily by any priest that I can listen to or read the dialogue from (with the propper citations so I can look it up to make sure it is real) then I will be more willing to understand your point of view. And I don’t mean some submit to authority bs or something that you have to stretch the truth to side your point of view. I mean a specific statement mentioning speeding. Surely if this were sinful someone would have had to make a statement on it. And not just one for that matter. So provide your sources.
 
wjp984 said:
I wish I had more time to argue with you on this topic. I’m exhausted from my studies today so I’ll keep it simple. It is my opinion that speeding is not sinful. It is the conservative priest at my school’s opinon that speeding is not sinful. If you can find me one document by the pope or even one homily by any priest that I can listen to or read the dialogue from (with the propper citations so I can look it up to make sure it is real) then I will be more willing to understand your point of view. And I don’t mean some submit to authority bs or something that you have to stretch the truth to side your point of view. I mean a specific statement mentioning speeding. Surely if this were sinful someone would have had to make a statement on it. And not just one for that matter. So provide your sources.
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Well, thanks for dismissing out of hand the source I did provide – which, by the way, is the Catechism of the Catholic Church – as “BS”.

I’ve already provided support for my position, and I’ve asked you (repeatedly) to support yours. I don’t mean to question the authority of your priest friend, but saying that an anonymous priest agrees with you and then demanding that I provide you with sources that you can verify seems a bit unfair, don’t you think?

Since I have provided my source, the onus falls on you to refute it if you disagree.

But we’re going around in circles now. Best wishes on your studies.

Peace,
Dante
 
You are right, we are going in circles and my goal was not to convince you but to hopefully assure other people that speeding is not sinful and I think I have done a good job of that regardless of what you say. People will make up their own minds. Some people are overly scruptulous and will think speeding is sinful. Others are not. For those in the middle hoefully this thread can help them make an informed decision. I am not going to be able to give you any good arguments right now as I don’t have time and am overy stressed. I also don’t mean to sound offensive to you as I might appear to be right now but I am really stressed. I’ll be in a much better mood Sunday.
 
I’m bringing this thread back since I thought of another example. What if I think of it in terms of economics. I have a privilege to drive the speed limit free of charge unless I am on a turnpike. (Well it is free of charge for me since I currently am not working and paying taxes and just a student) However, should I choose to speed I now have to pay for going beyond the given privilege which would be in the form of a fine. This fine is more than what I should have to pay for the privilege to speed since it is only enforced on a random and selective basis of when the officer is around. It therefore evens out. With the money I pay for the ticket, the state now has more money availably to benefit the public interest and use it to improve the roads or anything else. I have benefitted the state by speeding and paying them money.

This hypothetical is not too far out there. There is a debate on whether a more efficient system would be a reward basis and not on punishment for speeding. The techology is there. They can record our speed and then we can get certain discounts off insurance or perhaps maybe they can raise the car registarion fee substantially and then give discounts accordingly to how fast one desires to drive. I wouldn’t mind paying an extra few hundred bucks to not have to worry about speeding. And if I was low on money I could drive slower to save.
 
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