Driving friend to "egg donation clinic?"

[montanaman]

Help me, Internetz! You’re our only hope!

Actually, I think it’s pretty clear what we have to do here, but I thought I’d run this by you budding moral theologians.

We have this friend (no really–it’s not us) who’s “part Jewish, part Catholic.” I was never really clear on how that worked–I think her dad is Jewish and mom is Catholic, but the Catholicism was rarely practiced. I have no idea if she was ever Confirmed or had First Communion. I only mention that to illustrate the spiritual confusion/chaos in her background. But whatever the real, true, deep spiritual inclinations of her soul, she keeps them well-guarded. I get the impression that she’s more likely to say it’s a private matter and “it doesn’t matter what anyone believes as long as nobody gets hurt.”

She’s been relying on us for a bunch of things lately, and we’re happy to help. Even though she was the breaker-upper, it’s still not easy getting out of a four-year (or so) -long relationship, particularly after you’ve been living with your “partner,” and the breakup happened a week before your wedding. She’ll be getting her license soon, but for now she needs rides from time to time. I helped her pick up some furniture the other day.

That’s relevant because she asked my wife to drive her to a series of doctor’s appointments over the next week or so. My wife took her to the first “doctor’s appointment” early this morning, and she wishes she’d known a little bit more about it. As it turns out, our friend is donating her eggs to a couple who, I assume, is having trouble getting pregnant.

Now, I THINK the Church teaches that IVF is a grave sin. (I’m embarassed that I don’t know more about this issue). I’m pretty sure of it, but I’d have to do some digging to be absolutely certain. Assuming it is, it would seem that our obligation is to immediately cease this assistance–it would be like driving someone to the abortion clinic. (Not that there’s a murder taking place, but the gravity of the sin is still in that same ballpark.)

Thoughts? Is there any value in continuing to take her to the appointments if it’s supplemented with an attempt to “witness?”

Like I said, I’m not that confused about it, but it sucks because once again our attempts to toe a moral line will make us look like the bigoted freaks my wife’s parents are.

 

[1ke]

You are correct. IVF, egg donation, sperm donation, artificial insemination, surrogacy, and any other act that separatese the marital embrace from the procreative act is gravely wrong. If done with full knowledge and free will, it is also a mortal sin.

Yes, in my opinion, you would be materially cooperating in her sin to take her to this place for the purpose she states now that you know what it is.

 

[montanaman]

You are correct. IVF, egg donation, sperm donation, artificial insemination, surrogacy, and any other act that separatese the marital embrace from the procreative act is gravely wrong. If done with full knowledge and free will, it is also a mortal sin.

Yes, in my opinion, you would be materially cooperating in her sin to take her to this place for the purpose she states now that you know what it is.

That’s what I thought.

Sigh.

The really frustrating thing is that, in my experience, there’s no such thing as a calm, rational discussion about weighty moral questions with a peace-and-tolerance “pagan.” If you try to explain gently, it’s condescending. If you take a firm stand, you’re “judgmental.” If you (ill-advisedly) yell, or otherwise get ruffled, you’re a “fanatic.”

I hope we don’t lose a friend over this, but if that’s the way it’s gotta be, that’s the way it’s gotta be…

 

[1ke]

The really frustrating thing is that, in my experience, there’s no such thing as a calm, rational discussion about weighty moral questions with a peace-and-tolerance “pagan.” If you try to explain gently, it’s condescending. If you take a firm stand, you’re “judgmental.” If you (ill-advisedly) yell, or otherwise get ruffled, you’re a “fanatic.”

I wouldn’t discuss, argue, or otherwise engage. I would simply say, “We won’t be taking you to these appointments, you will have to find your own way.” Any argument would receive the response of, “If you are uncomfortable with living here, you are free to find another place to stay. We will follow our consciences in our home, and we will not defend our decisions in our own home. Period.”

I hope we don’t lose a friend over this, but if that’s the way it’s gotta be, that’s the way it’s gotta be…

So be it.

 

[montanaman]

I wouldn’t discuss, argue, or otherwise engage. I would simply say, “We won’t be taking you to these appointments, you will have to find your own way.” Any argument would receive the response of, “If you are uncomfortable with living here, you are free to find another place to stay. We will follow our consciences in our home, and we will not defend our decisions in our own home. Period.”

So be it.

Well, she doesn’t live with us, so that’s not a problem.

On one hand, I agree that a no-compromise stance must be struck. On the other, even as futile as I believe the situation to be, I think we’re still obligated to explain the “why” as clearly as possible. I care about this friend, after all, and while I’d get on just fine without her friendship, I believe preserving it would be better than burning a bridge and sending yet another pop-anti-Catholic out into the world. A gruff approach would do just that, IMO.

 

[1ke]

I misunderstood, I thought she was living with you.

Go into as much detail as you feel necessary.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…On one hand, I agree that a no-compromise stance must be struck. On the other, even as futile as I believe the situation to be, I think we’re still obligated to explain the “why” as clearly as possible. I care about this friend, after all, and while I’d get on just fine without her friendship, I believe preserving it would be better than burning a bridge and sending yet another pop-anti-Catholic out into the world…

Rather than approaching it from a Catholic “moral platitude” that will likely alienate her, try a personal approach. The “why” of Catholic moral rules and guidelines help us live better lives and avoid doing things we may one day regret. The eggs she donates will likely one day become her biological children. She may not be processing her actions with that thought in mind.

If she follows through on donating her eggs, she may one day regret it. My understanding is that egg “donors” are paid well for their eggs; she may be doing this in large part for financial reasons. She may also be motivated out of the desire to help infertile couples, (which is a noble desire even if the action of IVF and egg donation is morally wrong.) This is yet another situation where we can judge the actions as morally wrong, while the heart and motivations behind the actions may be right.

You (or your wife) could approach the subject telling her you love her and that you don’t want to help her do something you believe she will one day regret. You might try discussing the “whys” of why the Church teaches IVF is wrong–both from the separation of love making/life making and because of the way “extra” zygotes are frequently discarded. (I assume her egg donation would be part of IVF or something similar.) If you are in a position to discuss and help her with financial matters, you might try carefully approaching that topic as well. Make sure she knows that you care for her, and that you are saying something out of your concern for her.

 

[montanaman]

Good points, GWK.

I just got some more information. She’s doing this because she has no intention of ever having children herself, but she feels it would be selfish if she were to make such a decision when other people out there want kids, but cannot. So, yes, there’s definitely a noble intention, although like with most moral dilemmas, there’s a lot of error mixed in.

She’s quite able to support herself, btw, so this isn’t a financial situation. She’s only in her mid-20’s and she’s about to start a job with a major automotive manufacturer (in the PR department) that’ll put her salary somewhere over $100,000 per year. Probably $20K north of that.

I won’t bother explaining to her that we “worry that the decision might come back to haunt her later.” It might, and I would feel for her if it did, but that’s not my primary reason for having “the talk.” It’s to get out of this situation and not become a participant in a grave evil. I think the “concern” route would likely backfire, in my experience. Look how many fundamentalists rage at and slander us because of our beliefs, but they do it because “they care about our souls.” Too much **** like that has poisoned the well for people who actually DO care.

I’m not worried. It’ll be short and sweet. I just had lunch with my wife and she gave me a few extra details. #1 is that when she told her mom we were going to help drive her, her mom, (who must have known something about me,) said, “Isn’t Chris Catholic?” I take from that that her mom is more knowlegable about these things than I thought. Now, by roping us into her actions, she’s made us unwilling participants in scandal.

I have no intention of laying a bunch of moral platitudes on her, but I do detect the slightest hint of a fast one. We’re going to pull out of this ASAP.

 

[CuriousInIL]

You are correct. IVF, egg donation, sperm donation, artificial insemination, surrogacy, and any other act that separatese the marital embrace from the procreative act is gravely wrong. If done with full knowledge and free will, it is also a mortal sin.

Yes, in my opinion, you would be materially cooperating in her sin to take her to this place for the purpose she states now that you know what it is.

Is egg donation gravely wrong if the eggs are not used for IVF?

 

[montanaman]

Is egg donation gravely wrong if the eggs are not used for IVF?

I don’t have an answer for that, but I would wonder what else they’d be used for. By themselves, it’s no different than donating blood. Fertilized, that’s another matter.

IS there some other procedure that uses eggs?

 

[1ke]

Is egg donation gravely wrong if the eggs are not used for IVF?

I don’t know what else you would donate eggs for besides IVF or cloning experiments-- which are both morally wrong.

If there was some purpose for which donating eggs would not violate a moral principle then sure, it would be just fine.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t have an answer for that, but I would wonder what else they’d be used for. By themselves, it’s no different than donating blood. Fertilized, that’s another matter.

IS there some other procedure that uses eggs?

I don’t know the answer either, but I would not donate my eggs given the ethical climate in today’s scientific community. Even if they promised only ethical research or treatment, once the eggs are out of my body I would have no way to protect my potentiallly future biological children from abuse. And egg donation is much more invasive than donating blood. The procedure usually begins with giving fertility drugs to stimulate egg production so they can “harvest” numerous mature eggs at one time. (Woman usually only produce one mature egg a month–fraternal twins, etc. are somewhat rare). To remove eggs, they go deeper into a woman’s body than blood donation requires. Apart from any moral concerns, the long term effects of the hormones, drugs and removal process would concern me.

Montanaman, this might not be something you or your wife is comfortable bringing up, but you might put in a plug for NFP and fertility awareness. I understand fertility clinics often jump pretty quickly to trying IVF and similarly $$$ procedures. None of those procedures promise a live baby 9 months later. Maybe the couple your friend wants to help by donating her eggs could be better helped by learning about NFP. Just a thought.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Is egg donation gravely wrong if the eggs are not used for IVF?

I think this discussion addresses the morality of donating human eggs.

Those who wish to donate chicken or other bird eggs, go ahead. No moral problem there, except maybe for vegans. There are plenty of moral uses for chicken eggs.