Dropping Latin instruction at Catholic HS

[Cristiano]

I was just looking at my son’s classes for next year, and I just noticed that the school is dropping the Latin courses for the freshman year but they are expanding the Spanish department and introducing Chinese. To me it is a sign that a lot of Catholics choose for themselves and for their children to be ignorant of the common language of the Church and they expose themselves to the possibility of bad translations of the documents of the Church. Then people will wonder why the priests do not know Latin. Do they think that seminary is sufficient to really become fluent in a language? Don’t thy know that the sooner you start the easier it is to learn a language? Don’t they know that probably the Latin students will show higher linguistic skills when speaking or writing in English? I will not be surprised if in fifty years there will be attempts to have the American Catholic Church like there is now the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. I was so naive to hope that at one point they would introduce elementary Greek too, my only take is that stupid is as stupid does.

 

[wasserfall]

I was just looking at my son’s classes for next year, and I just noticed that the school is dropping the Latin courses for the freshman year but they are expanding the Spanish department and introducing Chinese. To me it is a sign that a lot of Catholics choose for themselves and for their children to be ignorant of the common language of the Church and they expose themselves to the possibility of bad translations of the documents of the Church. Then people will wonder why the priests do not know Latin. Do they think that seminary is sufficient to really become fluent in a language? Don’t thy know that the sooner you start the easier it is to learn a language? Don’t they know that probably the Latin students will show higher linguistic skills when speaking or writing in English? I will not be surprised if in fifty years there will be attempts to have the American Catholic Church like there is now the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. I was so naive to hope that at one point they would introduce elementary Greek too, my only take is that stupid is as stupid does.

This is sad.

Especially the replacement of Latin with Chinese. Chinese is a language spoken by very many people, it is true, however, it is not, and never will be, a language of world commerce or of broad utility, due to the difficult script and pronunciation.

It’s nothing more than a fad, in the same way that high schools were trying to teach Japanese back in the 80s.

 

[AdDeum]

They are doing a great diservice to their students. Latin was,is, and will remain the language of the Church.

I think too many Catholics today, when they think of “the Church”, they go no further than their parish and their diocese. Of course, they recognize the Holy Father. But, they think that everyone should speak English, because “the Church uses English now”… When that couldn’t be further from the truth. ALL official documents of the Church are still in Latin… And even the new Mass translation… it is just that a TRANSLATION of the original LATIN.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I was just looking at my son’s classes for next year, and I just noticed that the school is dropping the Latin courses for the freshman year but they are expanding the Spanish department and introducing Chinese. To me it is a sign that a lot of Catholics choose for themselves and for their children to be ignorant of the common language of the Church and they expose themselves to the possibility of bad translations of the documents of the Church. Then people will wonder why the priests do not know Latin. Do they think that seminary is sufficient to really become fluent in a language? Don’t thy know that the sooner you start the easier it is to learn a language? Don’t they know that probably the Latin students will show higher linguistic skills when speaking or writing in English? I will not be surprised if in fifty years there will be attempts to have the American Catholic Church like there is now the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. I was so naive to hope that at one point they would introduce elementary Greek too, my only take is that stupid is as stupid does.

That is really sad. Not only it being the language of the Church and that it will help them study the faith but it is the foundation for so many languages.

 

[ProVobis]

I was just looking at my son’s classes for next year, and I just noticed that the school is dropping the Latin courses for the freshman year but they are expanding the Spanish department and introducing Chinese. To me it is a sign that a lot of Catholics choose for themselves and for their children to be ignorant of the common language of the Church and they expose themselves to the possibility of bad translations of the documents of the Church.

Big mistake IMO. This is pretty much what happened in the 60s. Catholic schools were dropping Latin requirements left and right. (And look what happened.) The public universities however didn’t although popularity waned a bit. Lately there seems to be a revival of Latin and Greek (they call it Mediterranean Studies in some areas) and there are still new Latin study books being written. Seems to make sense however if one hopes to get more out of linguistics study as studying Latin helps to learn the morphed/spinoff languages, Spanish, Italian, French, etc. While I’m all for studying Spanish, I find the grammar and inflexion much easier because I have studied Latin. As Latin has been shown to improve SAT scores better than any other language, that alone should be reason to insist that it be taught if we’re going to teach anything.

 

[runningdude]

I was just looking at my son’s classes for next year, and I just noticed that the school is dropping the Latin courses for the freshman year but they are expanding the Spanish department and introducing Chinese. To me it is a sign that a lot of Catholics choose for themselves and for their children to be ignorant of the common language of the Church and they expose themselves to the possibility of bad translations of the documents of the Church. Then people will wonder why the priests do not know Latin. Do they think that seminary is sufficient to really become fluent in a language? Don’t thy know that the sooner you start the easier it is to learn a language? Don’t they know that probably the Latin students will show higher linguistic skills when speaking or writing in English? I will not be surprised if in fifty years there will be attempts to have the American Catholic Church like there is now the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. I was so naive to hope that at one point they would introduce elementary Greek too, my only take is that stupid is as stupid does.

Maybe they simply couldn’t find a qualified teacher . This isn’t necessarily a conspiracy…

 

[runningdude]

This is sad.

Especially the replacement of Latin with Chinese. Chinese is a language spoken by very many people, it is true, however, it is not, and never will be, a language of world commerce or of broad utility, due to the difficult script and pronunciation.

It’s nothing more than a fad, in the same way that high schools were trying to teach Japanese back in the 80s.

Language classes teach both the language and introduce students to the culture.

One of the most important reasons the United States, Western Europe and Russia survived the Cold War is that we understood each other culturally, as there has been centuries of contact and trade up until and after the Bolshevik Revolution.

China, for hundreds of years, has been relatively isolated. As it becomes a world industrial power, it will be important understand its people and culture to help prevent tensions from growing. While fluency is probably an unrealistic goal for the majority of Americans, being able to say “hello”, “good bye,” and “where is the bathroom” could go a long way!

 

[sedonaman]

I was just looking at my son’s classes for next year, and I just noticed that the school is dropping the Latin courses for the freshman year but they are expanding the Spanish department and introducing Chinese. …

Probably needed to increase their diversity of teaching staff. **

 

[martininthefiel]

I am confused. Are they dropping all Latin instruction, or just the freshman year? If the latter, will all student still have to take at least some Latin, or will it just be an elective?

I am loathe to second guess curricular decisions. Perhaps you should talk to the principal, and ask what led to their decision.

 

[Cristiano]

Probably needed to increase their diversity of teaching staff. **

I think that learning Spanish, at least in Texas, is quintessential. I have strong doubts in regard to Chinese and I think that it will turn mainly into a ploy for kids from Chinese families to increase their GPA with an easy class. I know of kids fluent in Spanish that dropped Latin to get in the Spanish class to improve their grades.
I am growing frustrated by the overall attitude toward education as a tool for better jobs and not for personal enrichment and growth.

 

[dixieagle]

I think that learning Spanish, at least in Texas, is quintessential. I have strong doubts in regard to Chinese and I think that it will turn mainly into a ploy for kids from Chinese families to increase their GPA with an easy class. I know of kids fluent in Spanish that dropped Latin to get in the Spanish class to improve their grades.
I am growing frustrated by the overall attitude toward education as a tool for better jobs and not for personal enrichment and growth.

I am a big supporter of the study of Latin, mainly because it’s the basis for so many other languages and gives quite an advantage in the taking of standardized tests (SAT, ACT, GRE, etc.)

I have no problem with “education as a tool for better jobs”; I think that most people would agree. Though education certainly is a source of enrichment and growth, I think that the main purpose of elementary and high school education is to produce citizens capable of caring for themselves and doing productive work, particularly for those who do not go on to higher education.

 

[sedonaman]

I think that learning Spanish, at least in Texas, is quintessential. … I know of kids fluent in Spanish that dropped Latin to get in the Spanish class to improve their grades.

When I was in HS, the kids with the lowest grades in Spanish were from Hispanic backgrounds who already spoke Spanish. Never could figure it out. Meanwhile, I knew only English but was acing Latin.

I am growing frustrated by the overall attitude toward education as a tool for better jobs and not for personal enrichment and growth.

I have had the opposite frustration for the last 50 years. Taxpayers make great sacrifices for education, and there should be some return on their “investment”, as it is called by øbama, et al.

No Useful Social Product

In freshman literature and composition, we were required to analyze a Thomas Hardy novel. No employer has ever asked me to do that since, nor have I had a desire to do it on my own. What I remember of the course I wish I could forget; it was a bitter experience. To me, it existed not for personal enrichment of the student, but for the enrichment in the form of employment for an otherwise unemployable professor. Consequently, I considered “personal enrichment” courses as hurdles to be overcome as opposed to learning opportunities.

Because these fields [humanities and social sciences] haven’t as yet developed methodologies capable of cracking tough conceptual nuts in the dispositive manner of the natural sciences, recourse to institutional authority – that is say, to the settling of disputes through the erection of orthodoxy – has proved difficult to resist. A second factor lies in the inability of these domains to produce a useful social product in anything like the amounts generated by the study of nature.

Absent the prestige, support, and self-confidence that such social product confers, the humanities and social sciences have sought them instead through affiliation with what they believe to be deserving movements and causes, each in need of intellectual justification and defense. [Hence their infatuation with death and communism.]

“More Crises Than One”
Stephen H. Balch, National Association of Scholars
nas.org/print/print/More_Crises_than_One–SHB.pdf

Personal enrichment is fine, but it should be on the student’s own dime.

 

[Cristiano]

…Personal enrichment is fine, but it should be on the student’s own dime.

I think that we simply have opposite views on the purpose of school education. I am quite sure that you are not the only one that disagrees with me. Probably that is one of the reasons why Latin is gone.

Too bad because I am right about everything!

 

[ProVobis]

Probably that is one of the reasons why Latin is gone.

If this is still true 2000 yrs or even 200 years from now, how will they know Who died on the cross? They’re not exactly getting high grades in English these days either.

 

[pnewton]

While I hate to see Latin dropped, I have to laud the insight at adding Chinese. English is the international language of commerce because of the place of American in the world economy. America is now a debtor to China. Europe is in financial chaos. I believe knowing Chinese will be profitable in the future.

 

[annspazz]

I took 3 years of Latin in HS (back in the 80’s…yeah I’m dating myself)…glad I did.

 

[Cat]

It’s too bad, but I’m guessing it’s a budgetary thing, and also a supply and demand thing. The school has to be responsive to the demands of those who are paying the tuitions. If those people don’t get what they want, they will walk, and then the school will have even less money.

Everyone, if you are interested in having your children learn Latin, look around and see if there is an independent country day school in your area. Just google “country day school” or “independent school.”

In our city, we have such a school (it’s been around for over 80 years). I grew up thinking that this school was only for the “rich kids,” but when my husband and I had children, and we were miserably unhappy with the public schools, and we weren’t Catholic at the time, we had the opportunity through a convoluted series of events, to send our daughters to the country day school.

They were there all the way through high school–it was marvelous.

And the school not only offered Latin, but their students consistently earned some of the highest scores in the United States on the National Latin Exam.

Along with the Latin, the students studied “classical studies,” which apparently included a lot of Church history. At least one young man (a Catholic) became interested in the priesthood at this school, but I don’t know if he followed through.

Latin is offered because it is part of the goal of the country day schools, which is to prepare students for college. I don’t think that either Spanish or Chinese is “college prep.” I suppose it’s “life prep.” But college prep? Call me a snob, but I don’t think so.

So take a look, and don’t be afraid of the “rich kids.” You’ll find at least a smattering of poor country cousins in the school! They’re sacrificing everything to be able to send their kids there (while the rich people are using the change in their car ashtray!). But we found that it was worth it.

Another suggestion is to look really carefully and see if there is an independent Catholic school in your area. We have a school like this in our city, too, and they are one-up on the country day school because they offer Latin from kindergarten through high school! (The country day school starts Latin at 6th grade through high school.)

Independent Catholic schools aren’t associated with a parish. Ours is loosely associated with the Latin Mass parish in our city, but it isn’t a parish school. The students attend the Latin Mass while at the school, and learn the music literature and of course, the prayers, of the Latin Mass.

Our independent Catholic school has a very tiny population of students, but many of us hope that it will continue to grow every year.

I am a huge believer in independent schools–can you guess from my post?! I think that ALL schools in the U.S. should be either private (through churches, corporations, individuals, etc.) and independent!

We also have a Muslim school in our city, and even though I have no interest in the school, I thoroughly believe in such schools. This Muslim school produces some very brilliant students.

Perhaps some of you who still have children at home would be interested in looking into how to get an independent Catholic school started in your city or town.

 

[benjohnson]

Food for thought:

China will b the largest Christian nation by 2020.

I understand the love of Latin and share it myself, but learning Chinese would give an individual a wonderful opportunity to share the Gospel with our fellow man.

 

[ProVobis]

Food for thought:

China will b the largest Christian nation by 2020.

I understand the love of Latin and share it myself, but learning Chinese would give an individual a wonderful opportunity to share the Gospel with our fellow man.

Just hope there are enough people who know how to translate the Latin/Greek Christian nuances into Chinese. Otherwise the Gospels will take on an unintended life of their own.

 

[benjohnson]

. Otherwise the Gospels will take on an unintended life of their own.

Yes… the Catholic translators better get busy! We Protestants are way ahead in Bible translations in different Chinese dialects.