Drug Legalization (esp. Marijuana)

[mikekle]

I absolutely agree with you about this. We need better schools, not more prisons.

Further, if we funded and provided drug rehab instead of putting people behind bars, the U.S. would save literally $billions annually. That’s been proven and there’s bi-partisan, conservative-liberal, Republican-Democrat agreement on it.

Many jurisdictions are realizing this and are establishing specialized drug courts. Lots of people still go to jail for drug-related crimes, but they can earn a “get out of jail” card if they successfully complete rehab programs. The recidivism rate for these folks is much much lower than it is for addicts who don’t get rehab services while they’re incarcerated.

However, we can’t make it easier for people to get addictive drugs. The pain meds are legal now, and we can’t handle them. Imagine what would happen if the flood gates opened.

Yes, I agree with you on most of this, but Im at the point where I dont believe law enforcement should have any involvement in this problem…addiction has been proven to be a literal medical disease, addicts are simply trying to treat their disease when they go seeking out drugs, many places may have drug courts, but police are still out arresting people that use or have drugs on them…I believe instead of people calling police when they see this type of activity, they really should be calling the CDC, I think they should have some kind of quick response team to go out and address these people when calls come in, I mean, we dont call police when someone really needs medical help, and they certainly dont arrest people who are having serious medical problems.

You mentioned pain pills, yes they are legal, but not really, there are lots of people who get arrested for having a single percocet tablet if they dont have the prescription to back it up, the problem here, is many people have serious pain, but cannot afford to see a doctor regularly, plus the cost of prescriptions, so in attempt to treat their pain, they resort to buying off the street, in reality, this should not be illegal, as that is what the opioid pills are made for, BUT, the pharmaceutical companies want people coming to a doctor, its all about the revenue, if people could treat their own pain without a doctor, this could devastate the industry, everyone would loose money.

I have heard the medical service and pharmaceutical industries have lobbyists to ensure certain drugs remain scheduled to ensure the level of revenue, basically there is not much money in a cure, but there is LOTS of money in TREATING the symptoms each and every month (doctor office visits, pharmacy filling prescriptions, drug manufacturers).

 

[Captain_America]

It’s pleasant mental masturbation to pick about at the idea of legalizing drugs.

In the real world, it’s dangerous and harmful and a very bad idea. We really DO know better than this.

 

[on_the_hill]

You mentioned pain pills, yes they are legal, but not really, there are lots of people who get arrested for having a single percocet tablet if they dont have the prescription to back it up, the problem here, is many people have serious pain, but cannot afford to see a doctor regularly, plus the cost of prescriptions, so in attempt to treat their pain, they resort to buying off the street,

It’s true that there are people whose pain management needs aren’t being met by their primary doctors, and it’s true that some of these people are doctor shopping.

Couple things about this, though. The opioids only work for some types of pain, not all pain, and taking more of them won’t always help. There are other, safer pain management practices that can also help. The problem is, they’re not tried often enough. People assume that life is supposed to be pain free–unfortunately, that’s not always the case.

Originally, the prescription pain meds were reserved for terminal cancer patients. This is where they actually work the best. And honestly, if you’re a terminally ill cancer patient, what’s the risk of becoming addicted to your pain meds? The emphasis ought to be on palliative care at that point.

They’re less effective for other types of pain, but the risk of addiction doesn’t decrease.

 

[mikekle]

It’s pleasant mental masturbation to pick about at the idea of legalizing drugs.

In the real world, it’s dangerous and harmful and a very bad idea. We really DO know better than this.

Actually that is not correct, Portugal decriminalized all drugs years ago, they said crime and usage went down quite a bit, I believe there are also some countries that started providing heroin addicts with pharmaceutical grade heroin, a clean needle and a place to use it, they also said crime and usage went down.

You can google all this info, its all there.

Keeping these drugs scheduled illegal only benefits the drug cartels, prison industry, pharmaceutical industry and law enforcement agencies.

 

[beleg]

Okay, obviously smoking weed recreationally (idk the Church’s teaching on medical use, but I assume they allow it based on what I’ve read in the CCC) and abusing drugs (including alcohol, as in getting drunk) in general is a sin. However, not all sinful things are illegal, as I don’t see anti-lust laws. So what about marijuana legalization, and other drugs as well? I have noticed how Pope Francis has opposed this, but these seem to be his own opinions, and I don’t think he’s made any authoritative statements on the subject (correct me if I’m wrong though). I myself have supported the idea of legalizing pot because I believe drug addicts need rehab, not punishment. However, I’m kind of iffy on legalizing other drugs, because I feel uncomfortable about the idea of seeing stores having sales on crack. However, either way, I feel all drugs should be at least decriminalized, if not legal, because, once again, if someone becomes addicted to or dependent on drugs, he should be sent to rehab, not jail.

Is it actually so obvious that smoking weed recreationally is sinful (in and of itself, ignoring the fact that it is illegal in most areas)? Drinking alcohol, another drug, recreationally is not a sin, so long as you don’t get drunk - i.e., incapacitating your ability to make sound judgements. I don’t know much about marijuana, but if you could smoke just enough of it that you don’t impair your mental faculties, I don’t think that it would be sinful. (But I don’t know, since I’ve never used it.)

Assuming, for the moment, that my supposition is true, the only thing that would make using marijuana recreationally immoral is the illegal status that it holds in most jurisdictions. And if it isn’t actually immoral in and of itself, then why should the law ban its use. It can be abused, yes, but so can alcohol, which enjoys widespread use (and abuse) while being permitted by the law. If marijuana can be seen as analogous to alcohol, the law should allow its use, but prohibit the marijuana equivalent of being drunk (however that would work).

But not so fast - we already as a society have a problem with the abuse of the legal drug alcohol, which can cause heart-rending tragedies, in the form of drunk driving accidents, and alcohol induced domestic abuse. Do we as a society really want to introduce another legal substance that can be abused and cause problems for us? Do the benefits of recreational marijuana use really outweigh the problems it would solve? I don’t think so.

On the other hand, doesn’t that mean it would be better to outlaw alcohol as well? I don’t know. But what I do know is that alcohol, when used properly, has been a staple of human civilization for millennia, and trying to remove it artificially through the law simply wouldn’t work (see the Prohibition). Marijuana simply hasn’t been part of our culture in the same way, and so banning its use isn’t as unreasonable.

But again - this whole supposition is based on my questionable guess that it is possible to use marijuana recreationally without impairing your mental faculties. So if that’s wrong, then all that follows is rather pointless. But still, I think, useful as a thought experiment.

Medical marijuana on the other hand? We have legal medical opiates, which are far stronger, as far as I understand. So I don’t see why medical marijuana ought to be singled out.

 

[on_the_hill]

Actually that is not correct, Portugal decriminalized all drugs years ago, they said crime and usage went down quite a bit, I believe there are also some countries that started providing heroin addicts with pharmaceutical grade heroin, a clean needle and a place to use it, they also said crime and usage went down.

In theory, that’s what the U.S. does now with methadone clinics. People in methadone assisted treatment programs are still dying of drug overdoses because of adverse reactions, multiple drug usage, they’re taking their methadone and still using heroin, etc.

 

[mikekle]

Medical marijuana on the other hand? We have legal medical opiates, which are far stronger, as far as I understand. So I don’t see why medical marijuana ought to be singled out.

I have used both of these drugs, they are completely different drugs, which produce MUCH different effects on the person, marijuana has more effect on a persons brain and thinking process, just a small amount can really alter someones thinking/ perception, opiates, are a little different, they dont really alter your thinking that much, they mainly take away pain, and produce feelings of euphoria (the level of euphoria correlates with how much of the opiate is taken as well), so taking one single 5mg Vicoden will probably not have much effect on most people, it may make them sleepy, and also make them feel ‘better’ in other ways, opiates tend to make people feel like life is great, nothing wrong, etc. Low levels do not really effect ones ability to drive a car, work, function, etc. unless they get really sleepy, but usually this symptom goes away with regular use after awhile, but even low levels of marijuana can seriously alter a persons ability to drive, work, etc. IMO, it alters your perception of time/ motion, makes things seem faster than they are, this is why ‘high’ people usually drive very slow, they think they are moving faster than they are.

Plus, opiates are SOMEWHAT legal, they are legal to have, BUT only under certain conditions, ONLY if you get them thru a doctor, and sometimes this is not even enough, law enforcement has recently gone so far as to think they have the ability to judge whether someone needs a certain level of opiates over what a doctor thinks!!

If an older person, living in poverty, and cannot afford to visit a doctor on a monthly basis to get these drugs for pain, if they are caught with these ‘legal’ opiates, (even if they are only using them for their intended purpose), they will still be arrested if they did not get them thru a doctor LOL This is ridiculous imo, if they are legal, why would it matter if the person saw a doctor or not?

Lets say a person is a regular patient for 20 yrs at their doctor, and was prescribed percocet for 20 yrs for pain, and it has worked well, suddenly they loose their income or something major happens and they cannot afford the doctor anymore, but they still have pain, even though they have used this legal drug for 20 yrs and knows it works well, if they suddenly loose that doctors prescription for ANY reason, they WILL be arrested if caught with those drugs…again, this is utterly ridiculous, that is indicative of living in a police state!

 

[on_the_hill]

law enforcement has recently gone so far as to think they have the ability to judge whether someone needs a certain level of opiates over what a doctor thinks!!

Prescribing levels are set by doctors, via medical societies, associations, etc. working with state public health authorities. Law enforcement is only involved on the margins. And the medical societies I’m familiar with are very reluctant to do anything to take away a doctor’s judgement. They set guidelines, not maximums.

All that being said, I’ve heard from employers (business owners, managers, etc.) in manufacturing who are having a miserable time hiring people because they can’t find applicants who can pass the drug test.

Who wants a forklift driver, or a crane operator, or a guy running a massive metal press to be high at work?

 

[beleg]

I have used both of these drugs, they are completely different drugs, which produce MUCH different effects on the person, marijuana has more effect on a persons brain and thinking process, just a small amount can really alter someones thinking/ perception, opiates, are a little different, they dont really alter your thinking that much, they mainly take away pain, and produce feelings of euphoria (the level of euphoria correlates with how much of the opiate is taken as well), so taking one single 5mg Vicoden will probably not have much effect on most people, it may make them sleepy, and also make them feel ‘better’ in other ways, opiates tend to make people feel like life is great, nothing wrong, etc. Low levels do not really effect ones ability to drive a car, work, function, etc. unless they get really sleepy, but usually this symptom goes away with regular use after awhile, but even low levels of marijuana can seriously alter a persons ability to drive, work, etc. IMO, it alters your perception of time/ motion, makes things seem faster than they are, this is why ‘high’ people usually drive very slow, they think they are moving faster than they are.

Plus, opiates are SOMEWHAT legal, they are legal to have, BUT only under certain conditions, ONLY if you get them thru a doctor, and sometimes this is not even enough, law enforcement has recently gone so far as to think they have the ability to judge whether someone needs a certain level of opiates over what a doctor thinks!!

If an older person, living in poverty, and cannot afford to visit a doctor on a monthly basis to get these drugs for pain, if they are caught with these ‘legal’ opiates, (even if they are only using them for their intended purpose), they will still be arrested if they did not get them thru a doctor LOL This is ridiculous imo, if they are legal, why would it matter if the person saw a doctor or not?

Lets say a person is a regular patient for 20 yrs at their doctor, and was prescribed percocet for 20 yrs for pain, and it has worked well, suddenly they loose their income or something major happens and they cannot afford the doctor anymore, but they still have pain, even though they have used this legal drug for 20 yrs and knows it works well, if they suddenly loose that doctors prescription for ANY reason, they WILL be arrested if caught with those drugs…again, this is utterly ridiculous, that is indicative of living in a police state!

Yeah, I’ve never really understood the semi-legal status of opiates either. As someone who took prescribed Vicodin for a few days last summer after getting my wisdom teeth extracted (I’m a total wuss, I know!), I was rather annoyed to find that I couldn’t use the stuff if I needed it later. The left-overs are still sitting in the kitchen cabinet, never to be used. Seems like a waste to me.

But I do understand the point is probably to keep people from getting addicted to it. There ought to be a better way of doing that, though.

 

[Illmatic15]

Is it actually so obvious that smoking weed recreationally is sinful (in and of itself, ignoring the fact that it is illegal in most areas)? Drinking alcohol, another drug, recreationally is not a sin, so long as you don’t get drunk - i.e., incapacitating your ability to make sound judgements. I don’t know much about marijuana, but if you could smoke just enough of it that you don’t impair your mental faculties, I don’t think that it would be sinful. (But I don’t know, since I’ve never used it.)

That was exactly my question brother! I think it is possible to smoke weed without it being a sin just as long as your getting buzzed, rather than high. I’ve never smoked it either so I’m not an expert, but I’m just wondering whether or not a few puffs would get you high. Maybe mikekle can tell us the answer. The difference between alcohol and pot though is that people usually just drink alcohol as a part of a meal, while people smoke weed basically to get high. I know a lot of people that smoke pot and I’ve heard that when you’re walking you feel almost like you’re floating. However, though people were stoned, so my question is what type of effect marijuana would have on you if you just got buzzed.

@mikekle: thanks for the info. I do see a certain hypocrisy in drug laws. For example, pot is illegal, but just recently I was walking down the street and noticed some hippie-themed store where they were selling salvia, which I’ve heard is a much stronger drug than weed. I’m still kind of cautious about the idea of completely legalizing drugs, but I certainly think all drugs should be decriminalized.

And once again, if anyone knows if any popes have made any AUTHORITATVE statements on the issue of drug legalization, I would love to read them.

Peace

 

[mikekle]

Yeah, I’ve never really understood the semi-legal status of opiates either. As someone who took prescribed Vicodin for a few days last summer after getting my wisdom teeth extracted (I’m a total wuss, I know!), I was rather annoyed to find that I couldn’t use the stuff if I needed it later. The left-overs are still sitting in the kitchen cabinet, never to be used. Seems like a waste to me.

But I do understand the point is probably to keep people from getting addicted to it. There ought to be a better way of doing that, though.

Why cant you use the remainder you have left…after all, you paid for them?

The addiction thing is a cop out, you cant punish 100,000 people with true pain just to keep 1000 addicts from abusing it…but in reality that is exactly whats going on, majority of people who rely on these drugs for legit medical issues are being harassed, and kept from their meds due to a a small number of people abusing it…its quite sad imo, I think people need to rebel against this.

Ive actually watch the show ‘cops’ and Ive actually head many police questioning people they find opiate painkillers on, they ask them things like " So tell me why you need such strong medicine for lower back pain"? THIS WAS ON TV!!! I couldnt believe it!! How dare a cop try to act like a doctor!

 

[mikekle]

Prescribing levels are set by doctors, via medical societies, associations, etc. working with state public health authorities. Law enforcement is only involved on the margins. And the medical societies I’m familiar with are very reluctant to do anything to take away a doctor’s judgement. They set guidelines, not maximums.

All that being said, I’ve heard from employers (business owners, managers, etc.) in manufacturing who are having a miserable time hiring people because they can’t find applicants who can pass the drug test.

Who wants a forklift driver, or a crane operator, or a guy running a massive metal press to be high at work?

Not in KY, I learned there are actually a few drugs only certain doctors can prescribe!!! and the DEA watches them like hawks, they must really dot every I and cross every T when it comes to opiate prescriptions, the DEA really needs to be dissolved.

I do agree about employers though, my company has the same problem, our problem is finding applicants that can pass a background check and a drug test…roughly, of all the applications we get, only about 15% qualify. I have heard a few people talking about the company maybe lowering their standards a little due to this problem, as it is really causing staffing problems all over.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yeah, I’ve never really understood the semi-legal status of opiates either. As someone who took prescribed Vicodin for a few days last summer after getting my wisdom teeth extracted (I’m a total wuss, I know!), I was rather annoyed to find that I couldn’t use the stuff if I needed it later. The left-overs are still sitting in the kitchen cabinet, never to be used. Seems like a waste to me.

But I do understand the point is probably to keep people from getting addicted to it. There ought to be a better way of doing that, though.

So why are you keeping them in the cabinet?