Drums At Mass, YIKES!

[Canto]

These threads usually go no where quickly, and I’ve noticed a rash of bannings/suspensions recently so I’m checking out before things get out of hand. Before I do so;

He uses no sources. Not to mention he refrains from any comments that certain percussion instruments ARE permitted, nor does he mention anything about the local ordinary having the ability to approve instruments. And the whole “secular impressions”…that’s a wash considering that ALL instruments were used in secular society. Voices and Organs included.

Perhaps he was refering to Musicam Sacram

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

 

[Canto]

The allegation is not an allegation, because it is the truth. There’s a whole article about Mozart on Wikipedia (complete with foot notes for references); en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_Freemasonry. There was a recent bio-film my wife and I watched on TV with a large chunk of it detailing him being a Mason. He joined them in the year 1784 as an apprentice. Meanwhile, he composed Ave Verum Corpus for his friend Anton Stoll, and the autograph is dated 17 June 1791 (this well after he was no longer a mere “apprentice”). The Requiem Mass in D minor was written in the last year of his life, while he was still Mason.

Mozart was a Mason for seven years. That’s 1/5th of his life. Thus far there are two major pieces of his loved by “traditional” Catholics which were written by him during his Masonic years. To me, this undermines the credibility somewhat; you would rather have the music of an unbeliever at your “traditional” Mass. And not just ANY unbeliever, but a Mason.

This of course does not count Bach or Handel. In fact, looking through the “Leaders Show us Your Song List” I see several hymns written by protestants selected by “traditional” Catholics. The same people who rally against Vatican II, some of whom cry out about “the Protestant’s Supper Table”,yet these same people freely embrace music at Mass written by those who do not believe in what the Church teaches, or even further prefer a Mass with music from a Mason. You would think people would stick with Catholic Composers.

But of course, some of these people also don’t have a problem with protestants or atheists playing the Organ at mass so long as those “contemporary” hymns and instruments stay out of the way. Funny, that.

It all strikes me as a tad bit hypocritical, but that’s just me.

Let’s not forget that many contemporary hymns and even Mass settings are written by Protestants who, unlike Mozart, don’t even believe in the Mass.

With Mozart there needs to be clarification instead of simply saying he was a Mason full stop.

Wiki with reference says “a good Catholic could perfectly well become a Mason,” and it is clear that Mozart saw no conflict between these two allegiances.[9]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_Roman_Catholicism#cite_note-8

In fact, a Schönborn spokesperson told NCR Aug. 22 that the cardinal had been misquoted.

“He said that all historians are of the opinion that Mozart was a Mason. There is much evidence for this,” Erich Leitenberger said.

“But at the same time it is necessary to understand that Freemasonry in the 18th century was a completely different thing from [that of] the 19th or 20th centuries. There was no problem to be a deeply convinced Catholic and a Mason at the same time, as is illustrated by the examples of many priests, abbots, etc. [who were Masons] in the late 18th century.”

In other words, according to Leitenberger, Schönborn’s position is that Mozart was a Mason, but he was fully Catholic too.

Put that way, the Austrian cardinal seems on the same page with Mozart specialists contacted by NCR, who insisted that the composer himself saw no contradiction between his two allegiances.

…“Catholicism represented the tradition he grew up in, which he had no reason to reject, and never did

From the National Catholic Reporter September 1, 2006 avaialbe at the linik below.
freemasonrywatch.org/mozart.catholic.mastermason.html

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

So when the Church goes back to the TLM only…you will cease to be a Catholic?

That’s fine. Just don’t expect everyone to follow you. I’ve never walked out but I’ve also never been back to a parish where the priest not long ago said his answer to the poor is for them to just get a job. I’d also never return to a parish if it was ever Latin only again. To each his own. You’ll probably have an easier time finding a parish however nowadays without drums than I have in finding one that doesn’t speak of the poor in such a manner and where the social Gospel is preached. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

So when the Church goes back to the TLM only…you will cease to be a Catholic?

While many CAF Catholics might like that, no, not according to the Church.

 

[ForeverGrace]

:nope: Nope from my time here it seems you’re only truly welcome if you’re a committed Catholic who does not worship as the committed Catholics do in your son’s parish. But it could be worse. Just a few posts back I was told I am lost and can not comprehend. Which is better than some other things I’ve been told around CAF. Like I’m facing hell, could not be saved. God bless you and peace.

Thank you for your kind words. I want to be fair to everyone. My parents would have had a stroke if they saw drums or a guitar in the sanctuary. LOL. My Pastor has solved the problem by doing what my son’s parish does. He offers different services that so everyone may worship the risen King in an atmopshere that appeals to their sensibilities. I can only conclude that the Catholic church faces the same issues as Protestants do.

I personnaly think we have demonized musical instruements with no good reason since David used them long before Jesus came to Earth. But I do understand that often these instruments have been used for the wrong purposes as well. How sad that Christians, no matter their official ties to one church or another, have to find yet another reason to judge each other. Again, I do not single out Catholics. Protestants do it as well, and they are probably more vocal about it.

I appreciate those who provided me with answers.

I hope everyone here will understand that I did not come here to show your faith in bad light. It’s my goal to understand Catholics better. My own church spends a month with a Priest from another Parish coming to our services to address our questions and they in turn invite my Pastor to attend their services to answer the questions of Catholics. We have also joined our food pantries and charititable giving.

Blessings to all.

 

[CMatt25]

My own church spends a month with a Priest from another Parish coming to our services to address our questions and they in turn invite my Pastor to attend their services to answer the questions of Catholics. We have also joined our food pantries and charititable giving.

Blessings to all.

What a beautiful way to show our unity in Him! That is simply awesome. God bless you and your church and the Catholic parish in sharing your good works all in His name.

 

[Saint_wannabe]

I think that a fair statement. But Jews didn’t allow men and women to worship together either and I don’t think that Catholicism has embraced that practice.

I’m seriously not being critical, I’m just trying to understand the reasons behind some of what I’m reading here. One person says that drums (and othe instruments) are allowed and others say they are not. Both statements seem to be backed up by someone in past church authority.

I also understand that many people have a problem with things being introduced that they haven’t grown up with. I can accept that as a fundamental criticism. I might add that Catholics are not alone in this. Protestant churches also argue about style of worship. There are extremes everywhere.

I certainly respect everyone’s point of view. I only came here to ask questions not to be subjected to disdain because I’m not Catholic. If that’s the case, maybe Catholic Answers should reconsider allowing people outside the faith to post. I didn’t come in here and start talking trash about your faith. Apparently, by the wide diversity of views on this, other people also wanted to know why some Catholics feel the way they do. I’m not going to change anyone’s mind and it’s not my intention to do so.

Your welcomed to come in and post any time you like, and I would be honored to call you my friend. Just as with any other website, some people on CAF can get carried away. (me included). Usually If I see anyone on here being a self righteous, holier than thou jerk, I just stay away from them, and I’d advise you to do the same. But sometimes I also like to give people some grief, so they know that they are being jerks. I’m glad that your here friend, and I hope that our paths cross more often.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

What a beautiful way to show our unity in Him! That is simply awesome. God bless you and your church and the Catholic parish in sharing your good works all in His name.

Unity? The Church has been turned up side down since the changes. It is novelty vs tradition.

 

[seanflynn]

How about Spoons or maybe a Kazoo? There is no Liturgical Tradition of drums at the Holy Liturgy.

At one point in time, there was no Liturgical Tradition of organs, either.

Perhaps he was refering to Musicam Sacram

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

I think this thread has shown that there is no common (or at least unanimous) opinion on the exclusively secular suitability of drums. “Common opinion” is not to be taken as “my opinion” as far as I can tell. As for common use, it seems that the drums are used with a frequency that could easily be considered common in the U.S. for Mass. Therefore, since they are actually used, they are allowed to be used? I like the conclusion, but not the logic inherent in this section of Musicam Sacram.

With regards to the TLM, I would agree that drums should not be used. They aren’t traditional, and the people going to that Mass can be expected to prefer organ and vocal music only. It wouldn’t be very pastoral to change up a celebration so beloved as it currently is. All of my statements in this thread have been concerning the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

At one point in time, there was no Liturgical Tradition of organs, either.

The Organ issue was over a thousand years ago. Comparing the use of the organ with all the novel instruments in use at Mass today is not the same.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

At one point in time, there was no Liturgical Tradition of organs, either. .

For all most two thousand years the novel instruments in use a Mass today were not used.

 

[John_of_Woking]

This is going to sound really nutty but…is it just me or can the incessant banging of drums during mass sound ahem…demonic? Ok not demonic (that’s way too strong) - but at the Mass I went to it felt like we were being roused for war (yes i* know* we are in a spiritual war).

It just felt a bit frenzied for the solmenity of the Mass. It wasn’t condusive to contemplation

Maybe its just associations…Good drum playing is an art and it is fitting in the right context. Just not at Mass please

 

[Layman]

It would be funny if in our enlightened, progressive, liberal, tolerant, educated, scientific 21st Century we were actually heading back to paganism.

 

[CMatt25]

The Organ issue was over a thousand years ago. Comparing the use of the organ with all the novel instruments in use at Mass today is not the same.

Well the issue has to begin sometime. So a thousand yrs from now perhaps traditional Catholics on CAF will look back and say the drum issue was a thousand yrs ago. Comparing the use of drums to “fill in the blank” in use at Mass in 3010 is not the same thing. Why on earth were those 2010 CAF traditional Catholics so worked up over something like drums.

 

[eucharisteo]

I don’t ever remember drums being part of the traditional Mass, and I don’t understand why this idea is being incorporated.

Well, didn’t the Romans play drums while they sent the Christians to slaughter? I remember my Music Art professor and our text book actually say the organ was not played for several hundred years because of the fear it instilled in Christians because they all knew what it represented. Some time later the organ was introduced. And low and behold what was that German town where the guitar was played for the first time… Classical style of course… Silent Night.

Drums? Well who knows what’s next. The gazu? Next thing you know someone will sing rap. What’s the world coming to? Oh that’s right, it coming to an end.

Anyway, I prefer hearing no instruments at all during worship. I prefer acapella. Chant more precisely.

 

[dnu]

Anyway, I prefer hearing no instruments at all during worship. I prefer acapella. Chant more precisely.

:clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :bowdown:

SO glad to see that I am not the only one!

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Well the issue has to begin sometime.

I don’t think it had to. There was a reason why those novel instruments were not used ever before in the divine liturgy and it was because they are not reverent. They are being used in our time because I think the use of novelties have become common place in the Church in that last 50 years. These novelties have no place in tradition and as one can see the faith has been hurt by them.

 

[JustaServant]

I thought that this would be the correct Forum to bring this subject up. I don’t ever remember drums being part of the traditional Mass, and I don’t understand why this idea is being incorporated. I grew up in a Parish that had the traditional organ music with the occasional choir present, and then sadly, I was away from the church for many years. I now attend a different church that is in the community that I live in now, and it has a guitar Mass. I have grown accustomed to the guitar Mass, but now drums are being incorporated and I can’t stand it. First of all, we have a drummer that apparently has no sense of rhythm and couldn’t keep a beat if his/her life depended on it. Second of all, when I hear drums, I feel like I’m in a nightclub and not at Mass. I cringe every time I hear drums being played at Mass and I feel like it is very disrespectful. Am I the only one who feels this way? Am I just being too sensitive? I brought this up to one of our singer/music directors, and she thinks the drums are wonderful. She seems to think that this is a good way to get the youth of our Parish excited about the Mass. I have gotten used to the guitar Mass, but I don’t want anything to do with drums at Mass, and I can’t see myself ever getting used to it. Has anyone grown up with this sort of thing in their Parish? How do you all feel about this? What is the Vatican’s stance on this? I know that drums play an important part in music, but do we really need them at Mass? Are we trying to compete with the mega churches out there? and if so, why? I don’t come to church so I can be entertained, I come so I can be close to Jesus in the Eucharist, and to give God thanks and praise. I’m starting to get a bit (more than a bit) long winded here, so I’ll just leave this open for comments before I start babbling & ranting some more.

I would walk out on any parish bringing drums into the Mass. If I wanted to go to a Protestant worship service, I would go to a Protestant church.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t think it had to. There was a reason why those novel instruments were not used ever before in the divine liturgy and it was because they are not reverent. They are being used in our time because I think the use of novelties have become common place in the Church in that last 50 years. These novelties have no place in tradition and as one can see the faith has been hurt by them.

Ok so the organ was not traditionally used but you were fine adding it after 6 centuries or whatever. “The introduction of church organs is traditionally attributed to Pope Vitalian in the seventh century.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_(music

Tradition as with the organ issue can apparently adapt to the times. Peace.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Ok so the organ was not traditionally used but you were fine adding it after 6 centuries or whatever. “The introduction of church organs is traditionally attributed to Pope Vitalian in the seventh century.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_(music

Tradition as with the organ issue can apparently adapt to the times. Peace.

With the Organ we are talking about just one instrument. In our modern times one novel instrument after another is used in the Mass, acoustic guitars, congo drums, electric guitars, electric bass, etc, etc, etc. Not everything the modern world has to offer is good.