Drums in Church

[SpiritFire]

Hi!

I find that people say no drums or percussion in church.

That music should be sacred. (Which of course it should be)

But then we often find in the choices of orchestral Masses a TIMPANI (and sometimes cymbals)!

Isn’t that a drum??

I’ve even heard big orchestral crash cymbals before, somewhere in Germany at a mass with JPII…
Just kind of confused or trying to point out an interesting fact.

Now, I will say this: The timpani is a whole world away from the typical rock drum kit.
The timpani adds not only depth and weight to the sound of the music, but it is also more
of a “respectable” kind of drum, if you will. After all, it does have actual pitches.
Is this all the difference needed?

OTOH, timpani and cymbals with orchestra can make the sacred action sound like a movie score or a formal concert…

Thoughts?

 

[Corki]

Who said “no drums”?

I have heard many complaints about the drum sets (rock and roll style) including from my kids but never a blanket prohibition of drums.

Do you have a document that says this?

 

[Sarika]

Hi!

I find that people say no drums or percussion in church.

That music should be sacred. (Which of course it should be)

But then we often find in the choices of orchestral Masses a TIMPANI (and sometimes cymbals)!

Isn’t that a drum??

I’ve even heard big orchestral crash cymbals before, somewhere in Germany at a mass with JPII…
Just kind of confused or trying to point out an interesting fact.

Now, I will say this: The timpani is a whole world away from the typical rock drum kit.
The timpani adds not only depth and weight to the sound of the music, but it is also more
of a “respectable” kind of drum, if you will. After all, it does have actual pitches.
Is this all the difference needed?

OTOH, timpani and cymbals with orchestra can make the sacred action sound like a movie score or a formal concert…

Thoughts?

Well, first of all, orchestral Masses are the exception to the rule in the average Catholic’s
experience, don’t you think? It’s probably only used in Cathedrals and the like, and only on special occasions. I agree with you that it can make the sacred action seem like a formal concert.

And a drum kit/trap set makes it seem like a different kind of concert, maybe a rock, pop or who-knows-what concert. Personally, I find it distracting and annoying to an extreme.
This is not meant to be a criticism of those who are sincerely giving of their time and talents, and have been led to believe that it is okay to have this in the Mass. In my opinion, they have been misled.

 

[SpiritFire]

Quote:
Who said “no drums”?

I have heard many complaints about the drum sets (rock and roll style) including from my kids but never a blanket prohibition of drums.

Do you have a document that says this?​

Actually, come to think of it, absolutely no one! So of course, I don’t think there is a document that proscribes it.​

Quote:
Well, first of all, orchestral Masses are the exception to the rule in the average Catholic’s
experience, don’t you think?​

Granted. (Even though there are over three parishes in my area that do several orchestral masses a year!)

Sorry if I wasted your time, anyone! There’s not much more to this thread.

Thanks, though!

 

[His_little1]

I think the thing to remember is the purpose of music (in Church) is to bring more to the celebration, thanksgiving, and praise BUT not so much as to distract.

A drum, a cymbal, a flute, a guitar, or a pipe organ all have their roles when used in a respectful and liturgically correct way.

The most annoying instrument I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing was an electric accordian playing Bavarian-style (polka-type) music! It was in a German-Catholic established parish that had a German-Oktober-Fest type gathering every year. The guest vocalist had a high-operetic-shrill type voice to go along with it. It may have been the headache I woke up with, but it was really quite painful. (And no, I didn’t go to the festival)

Needless to say, somebody gave a very good effort, and even though it was not my taste, I appreciated the thought. I think God probably did too. (Wonder if He has a super-Almighty-remote with mute)

 

[Trader]

My cathedral parish just got its tympani in December. It was first used on December 8, 2010 to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the cathedral’s dedication. The largest of the four drums was too large to fit through the doors and had to be hoisted up to the choir loft. Prior to this we had to borrow tympani from the Fort Wayne Philarmonic which performs accross the street from the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception and we could never use the 48 inch drum.

It will have good reason to boom out Saturday when two priests will be ordained. I guarantee you the bishop will not be complaining about the use of drums.

 

[Liam_Padraig]

I too would probably find a drum kit/trap set rather annoying and distracting but that’s merely my own taste. However I have attended Mass a number of times where concert bass drums, timpani etc. and even bodhrans have been used to enhance the liturgy and quite effectively in my opinion. Of course a Tenebrae service immediately springs to mind.

 

[TheMc]

I also heard this from someone else, but I think think I have a good test for instruments to be used in church:

Would it be used in an orchestra and/or classical music

It isn’t the final test, because you probably wouldn’t want cymbals, or harpsachord, etc… but in general, it works:

• Brass qunitet? Sure.
• Pipe organ? Sure.
• Woodwind quintet? Sure.
• Timpani? It’d be odd to use it by itself, but maybe with some brass? Sure.
• Gituar, flute and a “drum set”? No way.
• String Quartet, or larger string ensemble? Sure.
• Electric Guitar? Over my dead body.
• Cymbals? *I’d say no. One of the few exceptions to the rule. *

 

[Corki]

I also heard this from someone else, but I think think I have a good test for instruments to be used in church:

Would it be used in an orchestra and/or classical music

It isn’t the final test, because you probably wouldn’t want cymbals, or harpsachord, etc… but in general, it works:

• Brass qunitet? Sure.
• Pipe organ? Sure.
• Woodwind quintet? Sure.
• Timpani? It’d be odd to use it by itself, but maybe with some brass? Sure.
• Gituar, flute and a “drum set”? No way.
• String Quartet, or larger string ensemble? Sure.
• Electric Guitar? Over my dead body.
• Cymbals? *I’d say no. One of the few exceptions to the rule. *

Harpsichord on the “bad” list? How is a harpsichord any different than a piano for liturgical music? Of course an organ beats a piano but many small parishes can’t afford an organ or an organist so the only keyboard music available is piano.

 

[TheMc]

Harpsichord on the “bad” list? How is a harpsichord any different than a piano for liturgical music? Of course an organ beats a piano but many small parishes can’t afford an organ or an organist so the only keyboard music available is piano.

I never put the piano on the good list.

Why not sing acapella chant if you don’t have an organ?

 

[Corki]

I never put the piano on the good list.

Why not sing acapella chant if you don’t have an organ?

That’s so funny! We are a tiny country parish. It’s hard enough to get anyone to sing with the piano.

But back to the harpsichord. Didn’t Bach and Mozart compose Masses for harpsichord?

When I was in college, the early morning daily Mass was with harpsichord. Not that that makes it right, but I can’t see how a harpsichord would be a problem.

 

[TheMc]

When I was in college, the early morning daily Mass was with harpsichord. Not that that makes it right, but I can’t see how a harpsichord would be a problem.

I don’t know, the more I think, I guess the harpsichord wouldn’t be so bad, if it were played well. But I’d have to hear it to be sure.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I once attended a Confirmation Mass in a cathedral where a rock-style band was playing loud, drum-infested music during the reception of Holy Communion. It was absolutely distracting and made any sort of prayer impossible. Having a tympani for a performance of Händel’s Messiah is a far cry from an untalented youth band whacking on snares, and neither should be happening at that most holy part of the Mass.

 

[Rolltide]

Harpsichord on the “bad” list? How is a harpsichord any different than a piano for liturgical music? Of course an organ beats a piano but many small parishes can’t afford an organ or an organist so the only keyboard music available is piano.

A $1500-$2500 studio electronic keyboard (a high end one, not the cheap Casio ones) can replicate almost any sound you can imagine virtually flawlessly, and for a small parish, might be a better option than a simple piano.

Example:
youtube.com/watch?v=rJX7K0L5Zb8

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

Well, if we want to really be purists, we would have no instruments whatsoever in Mass, except the human voice.

 

[Sarika]

But back to the harpsichord. Didn’t Bach and Mozart compose Masses for harpsichord?

When I was in college, the early morning daily Mass was with harpsichord. Not that that makes it right, but I can’t see how a harpsichord would be a problem.

No, Bach didn’t write any Masses for harpsichord!!! Mozart wrote for piano, and again, no Masses.

Are you sure it was a harpsichord at your college Mass? That would be very difficult to hear. It would definitely not be able to sustain congregational singing in the average (or even small) sized parish.

 

[Sarika]

A $1500-$2500 studio electronic keyboard (a high end one, not the cheap Casio ones) can replicate almost any sound you can imagine virtually flawlessly, and for a small parish, might be a better option than a simple piano.

Example:
youtube.com/watch?v=rJX7K0L5Zb8

Personally, I think that a keyboard on an ORGAN setting would suffice in some instances. I know this seems anathema to organists and purists, but here are some reasons for it:

1. It is very difficult for a pianist to learn how to play an organ well due to the difference in
   technique (which is too hard to explain here, but can be read in another thread started by Cat). Using a keyboard would enable the pianist to use a piano technique to sustain the tone (namely the pedal), and there would only be one manual (keyboard) to deal with.
2. Organists are very rare ( in my area).
3. Although the organ sound on some keyboards would not suffice, many now have a strong pipe organ sound that is quite convincing (to the average parishioner). Anyway,
   this is just a substitution for a real organ/organist because none is available, not because it should be a permanent replacement.
4. It would encourage the use of more traditional hymns and sacred music due to the fact that the secular types of repertoire sound really funny on organ in Church.

The only caveat is that the non-musicians who are in charge of many a music ministry would probably use all of the other settings available, so it would be important not to buy a keyboard that has all of that extra stuff. I know of one that only has piano, organ and strings sounds - I’m not sure if it’s a Clavinova model or what.

 

[Corki]

No, Bach didn’t write any Masses for harpsichord!!! Mozart wrote for piano, and again, no Masses.

Are you sure it was a harpsichord at your college Mass? That would be very difficult to hear. It would definitely not be able to sustain congregational singing in the average (or even small) sized parish.

I thought Bach’s Mass in B Minor was for harpsichord but that’s not my area of expertise.

And yes, I was there at some of those Masses. These were daily Masses where everyone was told to sit up front. I am not an expert on identifying instuments by sight but the Mass was listed that way in the bulletin [7:00 am daily (harpsichord)]. I took a class in music history and the Mass was one of the resources the professor listed for students to go to hear harpsichord music.

 

[Sarika]

I thought Bach’s Mass in B Minor was for harpsichord but that’s not my area of expertise.
I took a class in music history and the Mass was one of the resources the professor listed for students to go to hear harpsichord music.

After 6+ years of college music courses, this is total news to me. Maybe it was an arrangement?

 

[Corki]

After 6+ years of college music courses, this is total news to me. Maybe it was an arrangement?

I didn’t mean he sent students to hear Bach’s Mass. I meant he sent students to hear the harpsichord Mass at the Student Chapel.