Dual Covenant Theology?

[DENNYINMI]

It is said God will never forsake HIs chosen people. We are considered the Bride of Christ, right? Christ doesn’t have 2 brides, so if Catholocism believes in a “replacement” theology, that being that the Old Covenant was “obsolete” in place of a better, New and Everlasting Covenant…than what is to happen to Gods chosen people, the Jews?

What is meant in Scripture when Paul states that the fullness of the Gentiles must happen?

Are we awaiting for a time such as this?

Can the Jewish people of God ever be forsaken?

 

[Julia_Mae]

It is said God will never forsake HIs chosen people. We are considered the Bride of Christ, right? Christ doesn’t have 2 brides, so if Catholocism believes in a “replacement” theology, that being that the Old Covenant was “obsolete” in place of a better, New and Everlasting Covenant…than what is to happen to Gods chosen people, the Jews?

What is meant in Scripture when Paul states that the fullness of the Gentiles must happen?

Are we awaiting for a time such as this?

Can the Jewish people of God ever be forsaken?

I do not think the tree “replaces” the seed, but fulfills its promise and potential. The elements of the seed always exist in the plant and it’s fruit. I think of the Hebrew people as the chosen ground in which the seed was planted.

No one is going to be forsaken.

 

[John7]

What is meant in Scripture when Paul states that the fullness of the Gentiles must happen?

Are we awaiting for a time such as this?

Can the Jewish people of God ever be forsaken?

I think you mean these verses,

Rom 11:25 "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles
has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The
Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”

The key is at the beginning of verse 26, Greek οὕτως / houtos, never means ‘then’,
rather it means ‘in this way’ , ‘in this manner’. (τότε / tote is the Greek word meaning ‘then’).
Not ‘then all Israel will be saved’, but ‘*in this manner *all Israel will be saved’.
For example Mat 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way”, the words
‘in this way’ are translated from the single Greek word ‘outos’.

the verses are saying in the context of Rom11 that there is a ‘way/manner’ in which the
natural branches will be saved, and that is by belief in Christ Jesus, the only means of
salvation the only way to get grafted onto the good olive tree. The verses are not saying
that at a certain point in time, that ‘then’ all ethnic Jews (most of which don’t believe in
Christ) will be regrafted onto the good olive tree together enmass, without belief in
Christ as their saviour.

The good olive tree is complete when all Jews and Gentiles are engrafted, and ‘in this
way’ of grafting all of that which is Israel will have been saved, remembering that
“not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” Rom 9:6

God has not forsaken the Jewish nation is evidenced by the fact that there is a remnant
that believe in Christ (eg Peter, John, Paul etc) If he had forsaken them, then the remnant
from them that come to belief in Christ Jesus wouldn’t exist.

 

[DENNYINMI]

I think you mean these verses,

Rom 11:25 "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles
has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The
Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”

The key is at the beginning of verse 26, Greek οὕτως / houtos, never means ‘then’,
rather it means ‘in this way’ , ‘in this manner’. (τότε / tote is the Greek word meaning ‘then’).
Not ‘then all Israel will be saved’, but ‘*in this manner *all Israel will be saved’.
For example Mat 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way”, the words
‘in this way’ are translated from the single Greek word ‘outos’.

the verses are saying in the context of Rom11 that there is a ‘way/manner’ in which the
natural branches will be saved, and that is by belief in Christ Jesus, the only means of
salvation the only way to get grafted onto the good olive tree. The verses are not saying
that at a certain point in time, that ‘then’ all ethnic Jews (most of which don’t believe in
Christ) will be regrafted onto the good olive tree together enmass, without belief in
Christ as their saviour.

The good olive tree is complete when all Jews and Gentiles are engrafted, and ‘in this
way’ of grafting all of that which is Israel will have been saved, remembering that
“not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” Rom 9:6

God has not forsaken the Jewish nation is evidenced by the fact that there is a remnant
that believe in Christ (eg Peter, John, Paul etc) If he had forsaken them, then the remnant
from them that come to belief in Christ Jesus wouldn’t exist.

Your explanation is exceptional!!! Thank you so much, Thank you also to the poster above you, this has an understanding for me now when Protestants speak of the nation of Isreal being something they are waiting for…I believe it is called dispensationalism???

Thank you so very much!!!

 

[John7]

Your explanation is exceptional!!! Thank you so much, Thank you also to the poster above you, this has an understanding for me now when Protestants speak of the nation of Isreal being something they are waiting for…I believe it is called dispensationalism???

Thank you so very much!!!

hi, I would think most dispensational premillennialists believe in some sort of corporate
conversion of national Israel to Christ at some point in the eschatological future.
Some Catholics believe this also, and I guess its not impossible, but I can’t find any
evidence for it in scripture.

 

[Julia_Mae]

hi, I would think most dispensational premillennialists believe in some sort of corporate
conversion of national Israel to Christ at some point in the eschatological future.
Some Catholics believe this also, and I guess its not impossible, but I can’t find any
evidence for it in scripture.

The problem is the so-called Mid-Acts Dispensationalist who believes everything before the middle of Acts is for the Jews and everything after for the rest of us. They only use Paul for theology and claim everything Jesus did and said was only for the Jews and not anyone else.

It’s scary.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Your explanation is exceptional!!! Thank you so much, Thank you also to the poster above you, this has an understanding for me now when Protestants speak of the nation of Isreal being something they are waiting for…I believe it is called dispensationalism???

Thank you so very much!!!

Dispensationalism, aka “the Rapture” is an unscriptural heresy that I wrote a quick answer for here.

The State of Israel is not the Israel of the Bible. The State of Israel is a political entity that has historical connections to ancient Israel by virtue of her territory and the ethnicity of her people. But the Israel of the Bible is the People of God, i.e. the Kingdom of God, the Body of Christ, and the Church. This is not an earthly state or territory. As has been explained above, Paul used an analogy of an olive tree to describe the relationships between Jews and Greeks in the one People of God.

 

[DENNYINMI]

Dispensationalism, aka “the Rapture” is an unscriptural heresy that I wrote a quick answer for here.

The State of Israel is not the Israel of the Bible. The State of Israel is a political entity that has historical connections to ancient Israel by virtue of her territory and the ethnicity of her people. But the Israel of the Bible is the People of God, i.e. the Kingdom of God, the Body of Christ, and the Church. This is not an earthly state or territory. As has been explained above, Paul used an analogy of an olive tree to describe the relationships between Jews and Greeks in the one People of God.

I looked at your arguments against the Rapture/dispensationalism…awesome, especially the Kingdom…it is here!!! also you tie in the Eucharist so true…great write!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

To be honest, I think the time might come when God will have regarded Judaism as having fulfilled its purpose, and He will do away with it. At the moment, it is one of the catalysts keeping alive the ongoing and increasing tension between the Abrahamic faiths, which also prevents the hardline post-Christian atheists from thinking they’ve won the day. Religion, especially Abrahamic religion, is more pervasive and influential than ever.

But when that particular battle has been fought and won, I wonder if Israel and Judaism will still exist? What purpose will it serve?

As for the Middle East, I remember my old pastor commenting on the Arab - Israel conundrum as a problem that will be around for the “next 300 years”. He was using hyperbole, but I haven’t got much faith in Israel as an enduring political entity for ever and a day.

The Jewish story is a remarkable one, with a phenomenal influence on human affairs, but at the same time, I think there might be a use-by date for Judaism. Christ has come, and for a clever people, one would wonder why they’ve never realised they’ve had nothing but trouble since His crucifixion. He was crucified 2000 years ago, and they’re still a bone of contention.