Dualism

[Caesar517]

One of my close personal friends is an atheist, but has never had any real exposure to Christianity. She has a degree in cognitive science, and knows a lot about how the brain works and how chemicals and neurons in our brain affects the way we think and perceive things. Because of this, she tends to reduce certain experiences and feelings to chemical interaction and nothing more. Her chief problem with the existence of God is dualism.

I’ve been discussing this with her over the past few weeks. She feels like if there is something that exists outside of perceivable 3D space (God/souls) and still has an effect on 3D space, then we should be able to perceive it either through our senses or through scientific instrumentation. She rejects the idea that we can perceive anything outside of our standard 5 senses because she knows exactly where they are wired into the brain and sees no other sensory (name removed by moderator)ut.

We agree that because truth is not relative, one of us must be wrong. We both consider the other person to be logical and reasonable and so we have resolved to study dualism until we can agree on what is true and what isn’t. She has reference material to many secular scientists and philosophers; I need to find solid material on dualism from a Catholic perspective. Does anyone have a good place for me to start?

Fides et studium,
Caesar517

 

[Heuchler]

Well she is basing this all on an assumption that for an interaction to be made, both items have to be composed of matter. But this isn’t true. Even with real physical things, we don’t always interact with them. We would have no way to know or interact with higher dimensions yet we know that they can be there and can have an effect on us.

Besides, do you see smell? Can you hear feeling? To attribute the human senses with the power of perceiving God (unless he wants us to), would be like saying my eyes can taste. This isn’t what they are designed for. God and the angels have to choose to appear as something for us to actually see this.

And I’m not sure if this helps anything, but I’ve always been curious as to how we knew there was smell before we developed that sense? How did our bodies know how to perceive that? It would be impossible to know about smell before our bodies developed in that fashion. So, how can we hope to find the divine without that sense? How could we see without eyes?

 

[lemondiesel]

I’ve always been curious as to how we knew there was smell before we developed that sense? How did our bodies know how to perceive that? It would be impossible to know about smell before our bodies developed in that fashion.

Evolution, mutations, and survival of the fittest. At one point, some species developed a sense of smell, which benefited it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Just as a blind man is unable to form any idea about colors, or a deaf person to fathom what it means to hear sounds… so the body cannot comprehend the delights of the soul… For we live in a material world, and the only kind of pleasure we can understand is that experienced through our body. But the joys of the spirit are everlasting and ceaseless. There is no resemblance of any kind between the enjoyments of the soul and those of the body.
–The twelfth-century philosopher-rabbi, Maimonides

 

[Heuchler]

Evolution, mutations, and survival of the fittest. At one point, some species developed a sense of smell, which benefited it.

Yeah it could have all been accidental (or by design if you believe). This really just makes me wonder what other senses future generations might experience and what other changes might occur in humanity’s development. I guess thats why life is an amazing and fascinating thing. But thanks for the reply.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

One of my close personal friends is an atheist, but has never had any real exposure to Christianity. She has a degree in cognitive science, and knows a lot about how the brain works and how chemicals and neurons in our brain affects the way we think and perceive things. Because of this, she tends to reduce certain experiences and feelings to chemical interaction and nothing more. Her chief problem with the existence of God is dualism.

I’ve been discussing this with her over the past few weeks. She feels like if there is something that exists outside of perceivable 3D space (God/souls) and still has an effect on 3D space, then we should be able to perceive it either through our senses or through scientific instrumentation. She rejects the idea that we can perceive anything outside of our standard 5 senses because she knows exactly where they are wired into the brain and sees no other sensory (name removed by moderator)ut.

We agree that because truth is not relative, one of us must be wrong. We both consider the other person to be logical and reasonable and so we have resolved to study dualism until we can agree on what is true and what isn’t. She has reference material to many secular scientists and philosophers; I need to find solid material on dualism from a Catholic perspective. Does anyone have a good place for me to start?

Fides et studium,
Caesar517

My favorite image for that is the Television. To enjoy a nice SuperBowl Game you need 2 things:

1. 
   *]a good TV screen with quality sound;
   *]2 excellent teams ready to go for a good play.
   
   Now suppose the TV set breaks in the middle of the game. Whom do you call? The players or the electric engineer?
   
   Now suppose that your team lost. You swear against whom? the Engineers who made the TV set or the trainer and players of your team?
   
   So, there are 2 realities: the brain, which you friend is an expert of and the Soul, created by God, that your friend cannot treat.
   
   If you got an vascular accident and get into coma, your friend will go there and repair the damage and you get conscious.
   
   But ask your friend to give a pill so that the students do not need to study maths or chemistry or literature! After all, all is chemistry! Your friend cannot do that nor any scientist will ever do.
   
   The soul is created by God at conception and when you are talking to your friend you are talking to Her Soul. What is her soul? It is She. She is the Soul.
   
   I know that scientists make confusion with these 2 realities. They think that if they can built a TV set, they can be good clowns, or singers or actors…That’s another reality.
   
   I have had this discussion so many times that I almost see your friend’s face if you present this argument, specially if you say that her soul is She (is it good, my English?)

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Besides, do you see smell? Can you hear feeling? To attribute the human senses with the power of perceiving God (unless he wants us to), would be like saying my eyes can taste. This isn’t what they are designed for.

Given the background of the person being discussed that might not be the best example. She probably knows of people that see smell and hear feeling (Synesthesia).

 

[Heuchler]

Synesthesia wouldn’t really be a good example. The eye is not really smelling. You can’t look around and tell that pizza is cooking through your eyes. It is the brain. You cant have your eyes tore out but still see through your ears because of synesthesia. It is a delusion caused by the brain and is not true smell or hearing.

 

[GEddie]

Well she is basing this all on an assumption that for an interaction to be made, both items have to be composed of matter. But this isn’t true. Even with real physical things, we don’t always interact with them. We would have no way to know or interact with higher dimensions yet we know that they can be there and can have an effect on us.

Besides, do you see smell? Can you hear feeling? To attribute the human senses with the power of perceiving God (unless he wants us to), would be like saying my eyes can taste. This isn’t what they are designed for. God and the angels have to choose to appear as something for us to actually see this.

And I’m not sure if this helps anything, but I’ve always been curious as to how we knew there was smell before we developed that sense? How did our bodies know how to perceive that? It would be impossible to know about smell before our bodies developed in that fashion. So, how can we hope to find the divine without that sense? How could we see without eyes?

I don’t get your question. Human beings have always had noses; and an olfactory cortex. Sure, sometimes they don’t work, but there was never a time “before we developed that sense”. Unless you have nose problems, you were smelling before you had a conscious mind. Smell, and the other senses, are part of our “firmware.”

And precisely because we do not see any higher dimensions, we cannot be sure they are there. 4D and higher worlds make for great theory, but that’s all. For informmation to reach our minds from a higher dimension, energy has to reach us from it. But there is no extra energy in or around our bodies.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Heuchler]

Well GEddie, I didn’t really mean humans before smell, I meant living beings as a whole. At one point there were cells who had no feeling or smell and reproduced asexually. Why did we develop into sensual beings who produce through sex? But really i just added this as an afterthought because its something that I’m curious about.
And yes higher dimensions are only theories, but at this point in science, most researchers accept it just like they accept the theory of the atom. I just meant it as an example to appeal to an atheist who likes scientific parallels.

 

[Caesar517]

Well she is basing this all on an assumption that for an interaction to be made, both items have to be composed of matter. But this isn’t true. Even with real physical things, we don’t always interact with them. We would have no way to know or interact with higher dimensions yet we know that they can be there and can have an effect on us.

Besides, do you see smell? Can you hear feeling? To attribute the human senses with the power of perceiving God (unless he wants us to), would be like saying my eyes can taste. This isn’t what they are designed for. God and the angels have to choose to appear as something for us to actually see this.

Then how do we perceive God? Is God an inference from what we see with our five senses, or is there another way in which we can perceive God’s presence?

If it is the former, then it sounds like a guess; like we’re trying to explain things about the world in the manner of ancient paganism. If it is the latter and we have some sort of spiritual perception, then how is that information available for us to ponder with our brain, seeing as how our brain is made of matter and only connected to five senses?

 

[Caesar517]

Just as a blind man is unable to form any idea about colors, or a deaf person to fathom what it means to hear sounds… so the body cannot comprehend the delights of the soul… For we live in a material world, and the only kind of pleasure we can understand is that experienced through our body. But the joys of the spirit are everlasting and ceaseless. There is no resemblance of any kind between the enjoyments of the soul and those of the body.
–The twelfth-century philosopher-rabbi, Maimonides

Then are we split beings, half body and half soul?

 

[Caesar517]

My favorite image for that is the Television. To enjoy a nice SuperBowl Game you need 2 things:

1. 
   *]a good TV screen with quality sound;
   *]2 excellent teams ready to go for a good play.
   
   Now suppose the TV set breaks in the middle of the game. Whom do you call? The players or the electric engineer?
   
   Now suppose that your team lost. You swear against whom? the Engineers who made the TV set or the trainer and players of your team?
   
   So, there are 2 realities: the brain, which you friend is an expert of and the Soul, created by God, that your friend cannot treat.
   
   If you got an vascular accident and get into coma, your friend will go there and repair the damage and you get conscious.
   
   But ask your friend to give a pill so that the students do not need to study maths or chemistry or literature! After all, all is chemistry! Your friend cannot do that nor any scientist will ever do.
   
   The soul is created by God at conception and when you are talking to your friend you are talking to Her Soul. What is her soul? It is She. She is the Soul.
   
   I know that scientists make confusion with these 2 realities. They think that if they can built a TV set, they can be good clowns, or singers or actors…That’s another reality.
   
   I have had this discussion so many times that I almost see your friend’s face if you present this argument, specially if you say that her soul is She (is it good, my English?)

1. 
   Your English is fine, but I don’t follow the logic of your post. There is only one reality, which is the world around us. God is not a separate reality. What are you trying to show?

 

[grannymh]

One of my close personal friends is an atheist, but has never had any real exposure to Christianity. She has a degree in cognitive science, and knows a lot about how the brain works and how chemicals and neurons in our brain affects the way we think and perceive things. Because of this, she tends to reduce certain experiences and feelings to chemical interaction and nothing more. Her chief problem with the existence of God is dualism.

I’ve been discussing this with her over the past few weeks. She feels like if there is something that exists outside of perceivable 3D space (God/souls) and still has an effect on 3D space, then we should be able to perceive it either through our senses or through scientific instrumentation. She rejects the idea that we can perceive anything outside of our standard 5 senses because she knows exactly where they are wired into the brain and sees no other sensory (name removed by moderator)ut.

We agree that because truth is not relative, one of us must be wrong. We both consider the other person to be logical and reasonable and so we have resolved to study dualism until we can agree on what is true and what isn’t. She has reference material to many secular scientists and philosophers; I need to find solid material on dualism from a Catholic perspective. Does anyone have a good place for me to start?

Fides et studium,
Caesar517

Caution.
Be careful of the popular Cartesian extreme dualism which is not Catholic. Check out Catholic teaching in the section “Body and Soul But Truly One” paragraphs 362-366 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Caesar517]

Caution.
Be careful of the popular Cartesian extreme dualism which is not Catholic. Check out Catholic teaching in the section “Body and Soul But Truly One” paragraphs 362-366 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Thanks. This is an excellent summary of the Catholic perspective, but it is merely a summary. I need an argument for it that I can present to someone following the logic that I’m presenting here. Any ideas?

 

[GEddie]

Then are we split beings, half body and half soul?

No; we are all body, and all soul.

Your body is the substance of your being; and the soul is the resident process that makes that heap of cells a living human being. Your soul keeps your body alive; your body holds your soul (life) together.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Heuchler]

Then how do we perceive God? Is God an inference from what we see with our five senses, or is there another way in which we can perceive God’s presence?

If it is the former, then it sounds like a guess; like we’re trying to explain things about the world in the manner of ancient paganism. If it is the latter and we have some sort of spiritual perception, then how is that information available for us to ponder with our brain, seeing as how our brain is made of matter and only connected to five senses?

Well tell me, do you ever perceive God? Can you pin down and find God? Unfortunately, God is not a being of matter (except through Christ) so we can’t find God unless he reveals himself. Unless God decides to manifest as a burning bush, you won’t see him in front of you. To a Catholic this is shown directly in the Eucharist in which Christ is literally there but seems to be through our foolish human senses to still be bread. God could come down as Christ at each mass but in his infinite power decides to appear as bread. So, essentially, we don’t see God unless he manifests himself through our senses. We don’t have a special God watcher in our head which helps us, He decides when we see Him and he allows us to see him by using our pre-existing senses.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks. This is an excellent summary of the Catholic perspective, but it is merely a summary. I need an argument for it that I can present to someone following the logic that I’m presenting here. Any ideas?

This OP sentence is what gave me the idea that she might be influenced by Cartesian extreme dualism.
“She has a degree in cognitive science, and knows a lot about how the brain works and how chemicals and neurons in our brain affects the way we think and perceive things.”

If she starts talking about actual research, then there are ways to demonstrate that the particular research paper does not destroy the Catholic position on soul and body being one human nature and not two separate natures somehow connected.

I don’t deal with the existence of God, because the proof I used when I was doubting His existence is so irrational, unreasonable, utter nonsense that no one in their right mind would use it. Yet, it worked for me and I have not doubted since.

 

[yablabo]

Does anyone have a good place for me to start?

Fides et studium,
Caesar517

She agrees truth is not relative…well, good… Now have her define truth. Truth, not being that which is sensed by the external senses should show her the contradiction in her position. Truth is only sensed by cognition, which cannot possibly occur in the brain, since the essence of truth is not a material being.

She can only define truth in a rational sense by intellectual/spiritual action, which, again, does not occur in the processes of her brain. If the immaterial, that is, the ethereal or spiritual has no effect on life, then she should stop talking, reading and writing because many of these concepts which she uses as such in her field can only be defined based upon intellectual/spiritual knowledge (which although it comes through the senses as a medium is not sense knowledge).

Best wishes for you.

– Nicole

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

One of my close personal friends is an atheist, but has never had any real exposure to Christianity. She has a degree in cognitive science, and knows a lot about how the brain works and how chemicals and neurons in our brain affects the way we think and perceive things. Because of this, she tends to reduce certain experiences and feelings to chemical interaction and nothing more. Her chief problem with the existence of God is dualism.

I’ve been discussing this with her over the past few weeks. She feels like if there is something that exists outside of perceivable 3D space (God/souls) and still has an effect on 3D space, then we should be able to perceive it either through our senses or through scientific instrumentation. She rejects the idea that we can perceive anything outside of our standard 5 senses because she knows exactly where they are wired into the brain and sees no other sensory (name removed by moderator)ut.

We agree that because truth is not relative, one of us must be wrong. We both consider the other person to be logical and reasonable and so we have resolved to study dualism until we can agree on what is true and what isn’t. She has reference material to many secular scientists and philosophers; I need to find solid material on dualism from a Catholic perspective. Does anyone have a good place for me to start?

Fides et studium,
Caesar517

Hello Caesar!

Have your friend read Philosophy of Mind: A Beginner’s Guide by Dr. Edward Feser. Hardcore Catholic-Thomist and one of the biggest proponents of Catholic dualism, hylemorphic dualism.

David S. Oderberg did a great work on this dualism too, found here [David S. Oderberg Dualism.pdf](David S. Oderberg Dualism.pdf). It’s free to read, and from his book Personal Idenity, another good read.

Enjoy.