Dueling song leaders-MD needs advice

[patches]

I am the music director at my parish. We have two masses with a cantor/song leader, and two with choirs, a very good adult ensemble and a competant children’s choir.

I’ve taken great pains to explain to everyone singing that they should generally consider themselves in a supporting role for congregational singing except when singing the Psalms or a special hymn or music designed for choir or solo voice only. I’ve asked them to carefully regulate their volume so as to invite the congregation to join in, with just enough volume to lead effectively.

Here’s the problem: our Pastor, who wears a lapel microphone, sings very loudly into his mic on all the congregational hymns, effectively drowning out choir, song leader, and congregation alike. (The other priest has a very gentle voice and presents no problem). As if that’s not enough, we are in a loft in the rear of the church, which results in a very noticable delay in the arrival of the booming voice, --which is extremely disconcerting to anyone trying to play or sing music from the loft. The delay makes it feel like you’re trying to play and sing with someone who has no sense of rhythm.

Has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing, and if so, what did you do? We mentioned it to Father a couple years ago and he became very offended, and stopped singing all together for several weeks. Gradually, Father “Caruso” has returned to his old ways, and some of our cantors are so thrown off by it they are threatening to quit. I occasionally fill in as a cantor, and after experiencing it first-hand, I can hardly blame them, Should I mention it again and let the “chips” fall where they may? (I’d hate to lose my huge salary over this) Any ideas?

 

[chicago]

Can’t he just be asked to turn off the mic during the hymns? It would seem that him singing in his usual well projected voice unamplified alone should solve the problem. Such songs probably should be sung unamplified by all, anyway, and if this is the case explain it to him from a musical standpoint. For example, how in the concert hall vocalists sing without a microphone as the natual voice (of which his is apparently fairly good) carries more clearly this way and doesn’t overwhelm or get distorted as is the case through amplification.

In other words, put the burden of difficulty on the amplification, not him, and there really is no reason for him to get offended.

 

[patches]

Can’t he just be asked to turn off the mic during the hymns? It would seem that him singing in his usual well projected voice unamplified alone should solve the problem. Such songs probably should be sung unamplified by all, anyway, and if this is the case explain it to him from a musical standpoint. For example, how in the concert hall vocalists sing without a microphone as the natual voice (of which his is apparently fairly good) carries more clearly this way and doesn’t overwhelm or get distorted as is the case through amplification.

In other words, put the burden of difficulty on the amplification, not him, and there really is no reason for him to get offended.

Thank you, that makes perfect sense (to me anyway). Though we did try to explain it that way the first time around. I even prefaced my comments with “it’s really great to see you singing so enthusiastically, but…” When the “other shoe” dropped, he became offended anyway. I emphasized that it’s ONLY during the congregational singing that it becomes a problem, and for the call/response parts of the mass, the amplification is actually important. (The kicker is, my my day job is audio recording engineer, and I would think he’d give me the benefit of the doubt) I hope I can get him to look at it more analytically. As you suggested, I guess that’s my challenge; to put it in a way that will get him thinking of it in a technical and acoustical way. Thanks!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Here is a thought: Have Father come up to the choir loft while one of the cantors stands downstairs and sings with the mic on, and let Father hear what it sounds like ‘up in the loft’. Then let the cantor sing ‘un-mic’ along with the choir, so Father can see the difference.

I’m thinking that once he actually HEARS what you hear, he’ll understand.

 

[patches]

Here is a thought: Have Father come up to the choir loft while one of the cantors stands downstairs and sings with the mic on, and let Father hear what it sounds like ‘up in the loft’. Then let the cantor sing ‘un-mic’ along with the choir, so Father can see the difference.

I’m thinking that once he actually HEARS what you hear, he’ll understand.

that’s a great suggestion,-- thanks.

 

[RobNY]

Indeed. It’s not a question of whether his voice sounds good, it’s a question of whether or not it disrupts the song to have his voice amplified over and above the entire congregation and choir (for the song).

 

[puzzleannie]

present it as a technology problem, not a people problem, and invite his help in resolving it, as others have suggested.

I chuckly because there is a popular pilgrimage shrine here features a mariachi choir music group, dear to the heart of the former rector, and he was its most enthusiastic member, and they even have several CDs of their extremely popular music, and monsignior’s voice is recognized by nearly everyone in the valley because of it, and indeed, most versions of Spanish language hymns only sound “right” when he sings them with his choir.

 

[patches]

present it as a technology problem, not a people problem, and invite his help in resolving it, as others have suggested.

I chuckly because there is a popular pilgrimage shrine here features a mariachi choir music group, dear to the heart of the former rector, and he was its most enthusiastic member, and they even have several CDs of their extremely popular music, and monsignior’s voice is recognized by nearly everyone in the valley because of it, and indeed, most versions of Spanish language hymns only sound “right” when he sings them with his choir.

thanks, trust me, there’s nothing “right” about our sound in the current configuration

 

[CatholicCajun]

At my former parish we have an elderly lady who is tone deaf and will drown out everybody, choir, organ, priest and any one else who gets in her way. She has literally stopped the congregation from singing because she throws everybody off. She has been spoken to about this and her excuse is that she sings from the heart, well we all do, but I have a TERRIBLE voice. and I do sing from the heart, but I also like the people I sit in back of, so I sing as not to scare them off.

 

[patches]

At my former parish we have an elderly lady who is tone deaf and will drown out everybody, choir, organ, priest and any one else who gets in her way. She has literally stopped the congregation from singing because she throws everybody off. She has been spoken to about this and her excuse is that she sings from the heart, well we all do, but I have a TERRIBLE voice. and I do sing from the heart, but I also like the people I sit in back of, so I sing as not to scare them off.

Makes you wish the sacred writer would have qualified “make a joyful noise,” to add, “unless of course it clears the room.”

 

[pm1853]

Here’s the problem: our Pastor, who wears a lapel microphone, sings very loudly into his mic on all the congregational hymns, effectively drowning out choir, song leader, and congregation alike.

Wow. When I read your post I seriously thought that I had written this thread and forgot about it. I am in the exact same situation as you (Our choir is up front, but I cantor from the loft during the other masses). This may not come off as charitable, but if your priest is like mine, there is a degree of vanity involved. The congregation loathes it (I know this because 1-I’ve been told by many many people and 2-When he starts singing, I can see everyone rolling their eyes). I truly have no idea how to address it. Even when I am up front with the choir, there is still a time delay as our tempos rarely match and I end up consistently having to speed up or slow down significantly.

Even if we did talk to him, I don’t think it would do anything. He simply doesn’t listen.

I have no suggestions honestly because I am gutless and just can’t bring myself to tell him that its really…REALLY bad. Please keep us up to date, I really need to know how you handle it. If you can fix this, you’re a much better man than I.

 

[patches]

Wow. When I read your post I seriously thought that I had written this thread and forgot about it. I am in the exact same situation as you (Our choir is up front, but I cantor from the loft during the other masses). This may not come off as charitable, but if your priest is like mine, there is a degree of vanity involved. The congregation loathes it (I know this because 1-I’ve been told by many many people and 2-When he starts singing, I can see everyone rolling their eyes). I truly have no idea how to address it. Even when I am up front with the choir, there is still a time delay as our tempos rarely match and I end up consistently having to speed up or slow down significantly.

Even if we did talk to him, I don’t think it would do anything. He simply doesn’t listen.

I have no suggestions honestly because I am gutless and just can’t bring myself to tell him that its really…REALLY bad. Please keep us up to date, I really need to know how you handle it. If you can fix this, you’re a much better man than I.

I truly feel your pain! Here’s what I decided to do: I put a post-it note today on the lapel microphone that reads:

Hi Father,
Would you please mute this mic on congregational hymns when we have a choir or cantor?
There’s a nasty delay in the sound’s arrival upstairs, which throws the singers off, to the point where a couple of them are considering giving up serving as cantors. This is not a problem on call/response type singing, just when everyone’s singing together. Please be assured that this is a technical problem only,—we love your voice and are very glad that you sing along with us!

I’m not sure if there’s a vanity issue in my case, or just that I’m being considered audacioius for questioning the way things are done. I tried to make the note a dispassionate appeal to correct a technical problem, (as another poster wisely suggested to me). I’ve not yet seen him for a reaction, but I’m sure I’ll have a pretty good idea of where he’s coming from this Sunday. I plan to follow up in person with either a “thank you” for helping us, or if he doesn’t seem to be responding to the request, ask him if he received my note and get a reaction. I simply can’t abide the way things are, I just lost two very good cantors who headed off to college, and until we get more people it’s going to be hard as it is to get every mass covered. I can’t afford to lose anyone. This is really a “deal breaker” for me, and even though I love my job and my parish, I reluctantly may have to take a “this must change or I must go” stand. Stay tuned. . . . …

 

[SMHW]

We had that problem when the old pastor was still at our parish.

Our church had a terrible sound delay problem. The pastor would be behind because by the time the sound got to him it was delayed. And by the time the miked sound of the delayed pastor got to the people and back to the choir it was more delayed… and so on. You’d see panicked looks on the faces of the choir members because whatever the choir director was signaling us to do was very different from what we were hearing.

The thing was that by singing I think the pastor encouraged the people to sing.

We eventually got a new pastor. There was something about his way speaking that just didn’t work with our sound system. The reverberation was canceling out his speaking. You’d hear two words and the third would be garbled. People would be looking at each other with puzzled faces and get shrugs in return.

After less high tech attempts to solve the problem failed we evenually brought in a sound engineer. It took some MAJOR modifications to fix our sound, including putting padding on all the seats and adding additional speakers. The spoken sound is now quite clear but music tends to sound rather dull.

In any case, this pastor won’t sing when he’s presiding. Sadly, the congregation doesn’t sing as much either.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Well I know that i “make a joyful noise” unto the Lord. Our new priest does the same and he uses his mike. I just put it to the Lord as to what he wants to do about us:shrug: .

 

[patches]

We had that problem when the old pastor was still at our parish.

Our church had a terrible sound delay problem. The pastor would be behind because by the time the sound got to him it was delayed. And by the time the miked sound of the delayed pastor got to the people and back to the choir it was more delayed… and so on. You’d see panicked looks on the faces of the choir members because whatever the choir director was signaling us to do was very different from what we were hearing.

The thing was that by singing I think the pastor encouraged the people to sing.

This is true.  But it isn't that we don't want him to sing, it's that we don't want him to sing at 110 decibels.   His singing surely encourages people to join in--we obviously want to keep that.  I just want him to mute his microphone and blend in with everyone else instead of competing with the choir a half second later.  
 Right now the people have 3 options,1) try to stay with the choir (difficult, because father is competing with them)  2) Sing with Father a half-second later than the organ, instruments and choir (and finish off what's left of the music folks' sanity) or 3) become bewildered and stop singing altogether (a phenomenon that seems to be growing each week)
 I think deadening the beautiful acoustics of a church that was just made for singing would be more of a crime than a solution.  I'm waiting to see what happens....

 

[patches]

Well I know that i “make a joyful noise” unto the Lord. Our new priest does the same and he uses his mike. I just put it to the Lord as to what he wants to do about us:shrug: .

I wouldn’t worry about the Lord, but a crazed choir director with “delay-dementia” is another matter altogether Keep singin’ away sister! Hope your priest does too! …but maybe you could do the music people a big favor and “accidentally” drop Father’s mic into the baptismal font…

 

[CatholicCid]

Do you not have access to the microphone controls/settings?
If Father started singing with the microphone on (or the one time His Excellency walked right infront of a speaker with his microphone on) we’d mute his mic right away.

 

[patches]

Do you not have access to the microphone controls/settings?
If Father started singing with the microphone on (or the one time His Excellency walked right infront of a speaker with his microphone on) we’d mute his mic right away.

Gee, wouldn’t that be nice? Unfortunately, the choir loft system is independent and does not control the mics in the sanctuary. I’m not sure muting his mic would make him very happy if he didn’t think there was a need. I’ve been tempted to try to take the mic out with a BB gun, but the margin for error is a bit tight.

 

[tcraig]

Patches, I’ve enjoyed reading about you trying to solve your little dilemma with charity and humor!

Do please keep us posted on how things go on Sunday. And don’t forget to ask for Our Lady’s intercession!

 

[THurifer2]

Have an usher turn the mic off during the songs.