Dungeons and Dragons/Fantasy Revisited

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Crusader1095

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have noticed that there is considerable support among Catholic Answers participants for the Dungeons and Dragons game and media. However, I have found much of the reasoning that I have read to be flawed. Perhaps I am wrong though, maybe you are considering something that I have missed. Let me give you my take-

Dungeons and Dragons is a game that incorporates the use of the occult. The occult is defined traditionally by the Church as either the worship of man as invoker to achieve ends by his own “inherent powers of divinity”, or by appealing to the secret supernatural forces that pervade the universe. This is a form of will worship, a form of demonism as well, and reflects a preference toward familiar spirits, demons, and other entities the communication with which offend god. Dungeons and Dragons and fantasy role playing games are utterly permeated with these occult concepts, and consider involvement in these areas to be neutral at worst, or good at best! For example, you may be playing a mage, which by definition in the real world is an expert in the occult and satanic arts!

Now let me ask you- what Catholic in the world would, after reflecting on this, continue to play Dungeons and Dragons in good conscience!? Why would you want to play something which treates as neutral or even good something that horribly offends God and the indulgence of which could be a mortal sin? The occult offends God, and He is angry when people indulge in the occult. Therefore, to make something that offends God into a plaything seems even more heinous and a mockery of God.

Think about it this way- would you play a game that treats murder as a neutral or even a good thing? That treats rape, adultery, fornication, incest, bestiality, sexual immorality, theft, rapine, anger, jealousy, and greed as good and noble goals, or things that are neither bad nor good but a neutral tool? I hope not! I certainly would not.

Why then are you treating a game that considers the occult to be neutral or good as something harmless and inoffensive to God?
 
Sounds serious. I have heard Catholic radio personalities speak of it as more neutral, though. More on the idea of “look at the fruits of the activity” to decide what the focus us.

Do you have any documantation, such as from the rules or books of the game, that suport what you say? It always seemed to me to be an elaborate version of cops and robbers. You need bad guys for the good guys to be good. . .that sort of thing. I think, though, that if a person is inclined toward the occult, they may be drawn to anything that resembles it.

On the other hand, a person may be attracted to the hard work, sacrifice, and struggle involved in overcoming evil. Of course, if the game advocates murder, or its players worshipping evil, that would be wrong. I am a big fan of the works of Tolkien and Lewis. While there are very evil characters, the works themselves highlight the overcoming of that evil. IMO, We need more movies and books that teach heroic self sacrifice.
 
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Crusader1095:
Dungeons and Dragons is a game that incorporates the use of the occult.
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No, it doesn’t.

Therefore, you entire “argument” collapses.

And, just because it seems to remain necessary: Spellcasting 101.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Funny how this thread popped up on my ‘gaming night’… 😃

Let me ask you…have you ever played D&D (or any other Fantasy RPG)? Even read the rule books? Watched someone else play a game?

If you haven’t, then like most people who decide that its Satan’s Game, you don’t have a friggan clue as to what you’re talking about! :mad: Put down the Chick tract and pick up the players manual. If you read the dang thing you’d learn alot.
D&D Players Handbook:
THIS GAME IS FANTASY
The action of a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game takes place in the imaginations of the players. Like actors in a movie, players sometimes speak as if they were their characters or as if their fellow players were their characters. These rules even adopt that casual approach, using “you” to refer to and to mean “your character.” In reality, however, you are no more your character than you are the king when you play chess. Likewise, the world implied by these rules is an imaginary one.
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An example of a Cleric’s spell:
D&D Players Handbook:
Bless
Enchantment (Compulsion)
[Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 50 ft.
Area: All allies within 50 ft.
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Bless fills your allies with courage.
gain a morale bonus of +1 on their attack
rolls and a morale bonus of +1 on saving
throws against fear effects.
Bless counters and dispels bane.
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An example of a Wizards spell:
D&D Players Handbook:
Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A fireball spell is a burst of flame that
detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6
points of fire damage per caster level
(maximum 10d6) to all creatures within
the area. Unattended objects also take this
damage. The explosion creates almost no
pressure.

You point your finger and determine
the range (distance and height) at which
the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized
bead streaks from the pointing digit and,
unless it impacts upon a material body or
solid barrier prior to attaining the
prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball
at that point (an early impact results in an
early detonation). If you attempt to send
the bead through a narrow passage, such as
through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the
opening with a ranged touch attack, or else
the bead strikes the barrier and detonates
prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and
damages objects in the area. It can melt
metals with a low melting point, such as
lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze. If the
damage caused to an interposing barrier
shatters or breaks through it, the fireball
may continue beyond the barrier if the
area permits; otherwise it stops at the
barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Material Component: A tiny ball of bat
guano and sulfur.
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Sadly, I’m such a geek that I have my copy of the Players Handbook*** with me at work.***

Oh, and 'Casters are wussies. 😃
Real Men play Dwarven Fighters! 👍
 
Peter Wright:
Real Men are Paladins.

http://www.agiftinabox.com/images/32016.jpg
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Real Men:
Favorite Non-Human PC:
Real Men play Dwarves
Real Roleplayers play Morokanths
Loonies play a Dwarf-Elf halfbreed
Munchkins play Asmodeus
Click to expand...
Real Men:
Favorite Religious-type Character:
Real Men play Paladins
Real Roleplayers play Clerics
Loonies play street preachers
Munchkins play Demigods
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How 'bout we call it a Dwarven Paladin, and split the difference…? 😃
 
When I was younger I actually played Dungeons and Dragons. Back then I was not a Catholic. I also played a game called Palladium. When you look at the “Mage” sections of the game, they incorporate extensive artwork and use of magickal circles, incantations, and the summoning of various demons and devils. The Palladium game even uses the names of the real demons, including Mephistopholes and Lucifer and Satan. In fact, in Palladium, and I believe D&D as well, there is a special subset of mage known as a conjurer that specializes in conjuring various spirit entities. ALL of this is clearly under the rubric of the occult and the very idea of conducting such activities is offensive to God.

Do you really want your kids, or yourselves, playing this? It seems like because its the occult some people think its ok, but if you substitute the occult with any other sin, suddenly such a game wouldn’t be ok. For example, would you play a game where murder, rape, or greed is incorporated as a neutral “tool” to be used in your quests? Why should we play games that promote or treat with indifference content that is objectively offensive to God?
 
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Crusader1095:
When I was younger I actually played Dungeons and Dragons. Back then I was not a Catholic. I also played a game called Palladium. When you look at the “Mage” sections of the game, they incorporate extensive artwork and use of magickal circles, incantations, and the summoning of various demons and devils.
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Your memory of the actual rules is sketchy at best.

Palladium included some such art. D&D didn’t, and still doesn’t. All Palladium games also included the following disclaimer: “ALL of us at Palladium Books condemn the belief and practice of the occult” (emphasis in the original).
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Crusader1095:
In fact, in Palladium, and I believe D&D as well, there is a special subset of mage known as a conjurer that specializes in conjuring various spirit entities.
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Wrong on both counts. There is no conjurer in the Palladium system (well, at least in the first seven printings), although there are classes similar in theme. The conjurer in D&D doesn’t specialize “in conjuring various spirit entities.”

Which brings us full circle:
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Crusader1095:
Dungeons and Dragons is a game that incorporates the use of the occult.
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No, it doesn’t. Therefore, your entire “argument” collapses.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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Crusader1095:
Think about it this way- would you play a game that treats murder as a neutral or even a good thing?
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Like Chess (kill the soulders and capture the king!)? Risk (kill the armies for you own expansionist desires!)? Diplomacy (see Risk)? Stratego?

Yep–play them all.
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Crusader1095:
That treats … theft … and greed as good and noble goals, or things that are neither bad nor good but a neutral tool?
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Like Monopoly? Rail Baron?

Yep–play those, too.
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Crusader1095:
I certainly would not.
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It’s okay, no one’s asking you to.

Out of curiousity, what (if anything) do you play, then?
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Crusader1095:
Why then are you treating a game that considers the occult to be neutral or good as something harmless and inoffensive to God?
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I’m not. I’m playing a game that uses magic in the same way that Tolkien did in his very Catholic work, The Lord of the Rings.

(And, for the record, D&D is horrible! Real role-players play Fudge!) 🙂
 
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mlchance:
Your memory of the actual rules is sketchy at best.

Palladium included some such art. D&D didn’t, and still doesn’t.
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I think your memory might be sketchy here. First edition AD&D DMG had diagrams of various magic circles.
 
From the way-back-in-my-memory department:

Wasn’t Dave Arneson (D&D’s creator) a deacon in his church?
 
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Timidity:
Like Chess (kill the soulders and capture the king!)? Risk (kill the armies for you own expansionist desires!)? Diplomacy (see Risk)? Stratego?

Yep–play them all.

Like Monopoly? Rail Baron?

Yep–play those, too.

It’s okay, no one’s asking you to.

Out of curiousity, what (if anything) do you play, then?

I’m not. I’m playing a game that uses magic in the same way that Tolkien did in his very Catholic work, The Lord of the Rings.

(And, for the record, D&D is horrible! Real role-players play Fudge!) 🙂
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There are some games that are more neutral. For example Railroad Tycoon isn’t really about greed as much as it is building a successful company and franchise. You do not have to be a greedy person to try to build a successful company. Same with the various civilization building games. Now, if you IMPORT greed as your motive into the game, that would certainly be offensive to God.

As far as whether there are detailed magickal circles like Palladium had, the point is that as St. Paul states we should have nothing to do with anything that even remotely resembles such activity, even if D&D isn’t as detailed or graphic in its occultic elements. Spellcasting and witchery are condemned, and everybody agrees D&D incorporates spellcasting as a neutral or good activity into its game environment.

I honestly don’t see how a Catholic can play D&D in light of all of this in good conscience, but if you feel you can then I’ll let God judge everyone’s heart. St. Paul tells us we should not even have a hint of evil about us, and we should be as unlike the world as possible.

As far as JRR Tolkien, the man may have had a good motive but that doesn’t mean he was right in incorporating the occult as an activity that can be either good or neutral (as used by Gandalf). The scripture and the divine deposit are our standards here, not The Lord of the Rings.
 
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Timidity:
From the way-back-in-my-memory department:

Wasn’t Dave Arneson (D&D’s creator) a deacon in his church?
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I know he was an ‘Elder’…not sure what denom.
 
First off, It’s just a GAME! :rolleyes:

I spent several years when I was away from theChurch involved in real, actual, hands-on occult activity. Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing games definitely aren’t even close to the real thing. You can look at all the diagrams you want and you won’t get infested with demons. That takes effort.
Peter Wright:
Real Men are Paladins.

http://www.agiftinabox.com/images/32016.jpg
Click to expand...
No, anyone can play a charater. REAL men are DMs. 😃
 
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Lapsed:
First off, It’s just a GAME! :rolleyes:

I spent several years when I was away from theChurch involved in real, actual, hands-on occult activity. Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing games definitely aren’t even close to the real thing. You can look at all the diagrams you want and you won’t get infested with demons. That takes effort.

No, anyone can play a charater. REAL men are DMs. 😃
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I’ve been into the occult in the past as well and quite honeslty I don’t know what you mean by totally unlike. There is alot in common. What kind of occult were you into? I read Israel Regardie and Golden Dawn, and much of what they had was very much like D&D, in fact it was less sinister in orientation.

Secondly, is Leisure Suit Larry just a game? Is a pornographic poker game just a game? Is a game where you imagine having sex with nude females just a game? Is a hypothetical game where you are expected to murder and harm your fellow men, and blaspheme God, just a game? Where do you draw the line?
 
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Crusader1095:
As far as whether there are detailed magickal circles like Palladium had, the point is that as St. Paul states we should have nothing to do with anything that even remotely resembles such activity, even if D&D isn’t as detailed or graphic in its occultic elements.
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The same St. Paul who said that strong Christians could eat meat that had been sacrficed to idols so long as there weren’t weaker Christians about who might be scandalized by it?

It comes down to the maturity of the Christian. For some such games may diminish their faith, and they should avoid such games. For others, it doesn’t affect, or can even help to build their faith, and for them it is okay, as long as they don’t lead those whose faith is less sure into scandal by their activities.

Perhaps for those of us who have no problems with such things, we should be more aware of our presence on public forums such as these, and how our defense of such activities may affect those who come here with faith that might be affected by it.
 
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