Dungeons and Dragons/Fantasy Revisited

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Lapsed:
The same St. Paul who said that strong Christians could eat meat that had been sacrficed to idols so long as there weren’t weaker Christians about who might be scandalized by it?

It comes down to the maturity of the Christian. For some such games may diminish their faith, and they should avoid such games. For others, it doesn’t affect, or can even help to build their faith, and for them it is okay, as long as they don’t lead those whose faith is less sure into scandal by their activities.

Perhaps for those of us who have no problems with such things, we should be more aware of our presence on public forums such as these, and how our defense of such activities may affect those who come here with faith that might be affected by it.
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I have to say that I think it goes beyond that. Its one thing to play a game where you conduct evil activities, and the game actually labels those activies as “evil”, and attempts to pit good forces against those evil acts. But where a game treats something evil as good or neutral, thats where the problems begin to arise. D&D treats occult activities as neutral or good. God does not. To promote games that have no problem with something God despises is highly problematic.
 
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Isidore_AK:
I know he was an ‘Elder’…not sure what denom.
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Thanks! Like I said it was waaaay back in the dark corners of my memory.

(Speaking of Dave Arneson, this weekend I finally was able to get a copy of his Adventures in Fantasy game that he [co-]wrote with Powers & Perils creator Richard Snider. Mr. Arneson said that this is what D&D was supposed to be. Ugh… what a horrible mess…)
 
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Crusader1095:
I’ve been into the occult in the past as well and quite honeslty I don’t know what you mean by totally unlike. There is alot in common. What kind of occult were you into? I read Israel Regardie and Golden Dawn, and much of what they had was very much like D&D, in fact it was less sinister in orientation.
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I’ve been a student of the Western Mystery Tradition, practised Wicca, and been heavily involved in rune magic.

No one will ever learn how to perform the LBRP or Opening by Watchtowers from playing D&D. No QC, no BRH, no SIRP. No one will ever learn how to cast a Wiccan circle and invoke the elements from D&D. No one will ever learn how to galdr a niðstangr from D&D.

All of these things involve serious research, development of abilities and faculties and practise, practise, practise to be done effectively. Most who ever dabble in the occult give up early on because they begin to realise that getting anywhere requires serious work and effort.

The point is simply that D&D uses magic as a very mechanistic tool in storytelling. It has about as much occultic power as the description of a special effect in a movie script, because that’s essentially what it is.
 
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Crusader1095:
I have to say that I think it goes beyond that. Its one thing to play a game where you conduct evil activities, and the game actually labels those activies as “evil”, and attempts to pit good forces against those evil acts. But where a game treats something evil as good or neutral, thats where the problems begin to arise. D&D treats occult activities as neutral or good. God does not. To promote games that have no problem with something God despises is highly problematic.
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Unless someone has psychological challenges, they can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It only becomes an issue when such attitudes are taken outside of the context of the game and applied in every day life.

As long as the individual has a healthy awareness of the context of such things and no trouble differentiating between the context of the game and the context of reality, they will have no problems understanding the difference and keeping such things seperate.
 
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Lapsed:
Unless someone has psychological challenges, they can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It only becomes an issue when such attitudes are taken outside of the context of the game and applied in every day life.

As long as the individual has a healthy awareness of the context of such things and no trouble differentiating between the context of the game and the context of reality, they will have no problems understanding the difference and keeping such things seperate.
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As someone who practiced the occult you know it involves far more than mere ritual, and that you can infact invent any particular ritual you want and that the power behind the occult is your ability to either summon entities or affect things by the power of your will. D&D incorporates the basic occult elements of summoning and changing nature through mindpower. So it is definitely there.

The focus should not be whether D&D is harmful for someone of a mature disposition who can separate fantasy from reality; but rather whether imagining yourself engaging in such activities, and desiring to engage in them in your imagination, is as offensive to God as actually conducting them in real life. The answer is that imagining doing these things is as offensive to God as doing them for real, and it is no different than say consenting to lustful or angry thoughts.
 
I guess I’m either crazy or this place just has alot of really avid D&D advocates. But honestly- it seems totally clear to me that a Catholic shouldn’t engage in any D&D or any other kind of fantasy that involves the promotion or neutral use of sin.

If its sinful to engage in lustful fantasies, why wouldn’t it be sinful to engage in fantasies where you are practicing the occult as a preferred option?
 
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Crusader1095:
As someone who practiced the occult you know it involves far more than mere ritual, and that you can infact invent any particular ritual you want and that the power behind the occult is your ability to either summon entities or affect things by the power of your will. D&D incorporates the basic occult elements of summoning and changing nature through mindpower. So it is definitely there.
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No, it doesn’t incorporate the basic elements of such things, merely the idea of them. The basic elements of such things require a lot of work to learn and develop.

Your first observation that it involves far more than mere ritual is absolutely correct. Anyone can find the LBRP in any number of books or websites, but if they don’t develop an understanding of the underlying principles and work on the development of the basic skills involved, they will never be doing anything more than dressing silly, waving their arms around and mispronouncing Hebrew.

No one, by saying, “I’m summoning a water elemental. Where’s my d12?” will ever actually summon a water elemental.
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Crusader1095:
The focus should not be whether D&D is harmful for someone of a mature disposition who can separate fantasy from reality; but rather whether imagining yourself engaging in such activities, and desiring to engage in them in your imagination, is as offensive to God as actually conducting them in real life. The answer is that imagining doing these things is as offensive to God as doing them for real, and it is no different than say consenting to lustful or angry thoughts.
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You seem to know a lot about the mind of God here.

The difference lies in motivation.

Sitting around doing a bit of play acting with a group of friends for fellowship and fun is not a dangerous activity.

Sitting around doing a bit of play acting with a group of friends while harbouring dreams of power and occult might is.

Everyone I have ever played D&D with falls into the previous category.

Someone with covetous desires and a lust for power will likely fall into the latter category.

It is a question of maturity - of reason and faith.

If D&D is a problem for you, don’t play it.

You are trying to establish D&D as objectively evil. It’s not. It can become evil for an individual depending on their motivations.

Some evils are objective, such as murder. Other evils are subjective, like drinking or playing D&D. Why one is doing it, and how much, is what matters.
 
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Lapsed:
No, it doesn’t incorporate the basic elements of such things, merely the idea of them. The basic elements of such things require a lot of work to learn and develop.

Your first observation that it involves far more than mere ritual is absolutely correct. Anyone can find the LBRP in any number of books or websites, but if they don’t develop an understanding of the underlying principles and work on the development of the basic skills involved, they will never be doing anything more than dressing silly, waving their arms around and mispronouncing Hebrew.

No one, by saying, “I’m summoning a water elemental. Where’s my d12?” will ever actually summon a water elemental.

You seem to know a lot about the mind of God here.

The difference lies in motivation.

Sitting around doing a bit of play acting with a group of friends for fellowship and fun is not a dangerous activity.

Sitting around doing a bit of play acting with a group of friends while harbouring dreams of power and occult might is.

Everyone I have ever played D&D with falls into the previous category.

Someone with covetous desires and a lust for power will likely fall into the latter category.

It is a question of maturity - of reason and faith.

If D&D is a problem for you, don’t play it.

You are trying to establish D&D as objectively evil. It’s not. It can become evil for an individual depending on their motivations.

Some evils are objective, such as murder. Other evils are subjective, like drinking or playing D&D. Why one is doing it, and how much, is what matters.
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Again I must disagree. Imagining doing something that is objectively offensive to God, with a true desire to do it in your imagination is as bad as doing it. “I tell you, if you even look at a woman to lust after her, you have already committed adultery with her IN YOUR HEART”
 
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Crusader1095:
But honestly- it seems totally clear to me that a Catholic shouldn’t engage in any D&D or any other kind of fantasy that involves the promotion or neutral use of sin.
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So you’re perfectly okay with role-playing games devoid of occult aspects? Like modern day espionage, far future space campaigns, old west adventures, and even medieval adventures with no magic?

What about a system where magic is only used by the forces of evil that oppose the players?

What about a system where the characters have supernatural powers granted to them by God, like Samson’s supernatural strength or the miracles granted to the Saints?
 
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Timidity:
So you’re perfectly okay with role-playing games devoid of occult aspects? Like modern day espionage, far future space campaigns, old west adventures, and even medieval adventures with no magic?

What about a system where magic is only used by the forces of evil that oppose the players?

What about a system where the characters have supernatural powers granted to them by God, like Samson’s supernatural strength or the miracles granted to the Saints?
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I can’t find anything objectionable about any of those kinds of games, since none of them involve occultic elements. Even if a game, or movie had objectionable material in it- the decisive factor is how the material is portrayed. Is the objectionable material portrayed as evil or destructive? If so, then the game or movie would not be objectionable to God. For example the Bible has a lot of sin in it, but the Bible portrays that sin as destructive.
 
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Crusader1095:
Again I must disagree. Imagining doing something that is objectively offensive to God, with a true desire to do it in your imagination is as bad as doing it. “I tell you, if you even look at a woman to lust after her, you have already committed adultery with her IN YOUR HEART”
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You grasped precisely what I was getting at as the difference here - “…with a true desire to do it…”

That desire is not there in most of the D&D players I’ve ever played with, which is quite a few. That is what makes playing a game like D&D evil only in subjective terms. It all hinges on the motivation - on what is happening in the heart of the player. I’m glad we can agree on this.

Most D&D players, in my experience, do not sit around fantasizing about using magic in their mind’s eye. It’s simply an aspect of the game, again, like the description of a special effect in a movie script. The process of spell casting in D&D is simply stating, “I’m doing this.” Not much dreaming of power going on there.

Mature Christians who are clear about such mattters within themselves have nothing to fear from D&D.

Besides, it’s hard to be fanatasizing about wielding vast occultic powers when one is searching for their dropped dice and the resident rules lawyer is arguing with the DM.
 
Slightly off topic, but are the people against D&D also against something like Star Wars and the Jedi’s use of the Force?
 
I’ve never played D&D, but I have played another roll playing game, How to Host a Murder Mystery. In that game there is a party of people and the “host” is killed and it’s the job of the guests to figure out who did it. Durring the game you try purposefully to deceive the other players in order to “get away with the murder” so to speak.

Yet never in the game do you start thinking about how you could use this to go out and really murder someone (in fact the methods are absolutely rediculous - as in one game I murdered the guy by dressing as a statue and dropping a vase on his head :whacky: )

And D&D, from all I’ve heard, is the same You’re spells are no more than names on a piece of paper with what will happen afterwards. As Spellcasting 101 points out (in a most amusing manner 😛 ) they are completely useless if you really want to perform magic.

If someone was playing this game to learn more about the occult then he would be in the wrong, but this the same as if someone were playing the Murder game looking for ways to kill someone. However, I’m sure such people would spend their time researching in more ‘productive’ ways.
 
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Jabronie:
Here’s the absolute TRUTH about D&D. Sraight from Jack Chick himself. 😃 😛 :rolleyes:

chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

:rotfl:
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That tract makes it SO obvious that Jack Chick has never seven seen a D&D session…

…I mean, c’mon! there’s 4 girls playing, and only 3 guys. 4 G-I-R-L-S! Even the DM’s a chick! No WAY that would happen in real life! 😃
 
Has the thread’s starter ever heard of the PC Black and White games? Now there’s a game that literally has you play a God. You can even be good or evil! (I leaned more towards mischevious actually)
 
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rocklobster:
Has the thread’s starter ever heard of the PC Black and White games? Now there’s a game that literally has you play a God. You can even be good or evil! (I leaned more towards mischevious actually)
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Check out Populous if you want the ‘original’ God-Game. Now Populous was good…
 
That tract was hilarious. Wonder if Chick thinks all Final Fantasy 7 fans wanted to commit suicide when Aerith died.
 
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rocklobster:
That tract was hilarious. Wonder if Chick thinks all Final Fantasy 7 fans wanted to commit suicide when Aerith died.
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No, just track down and kill Sephiroth… 😃
 
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