Dungeons and Dragons/Fantasy Revisited

[wjp984]

Crusader: you are as bad as any of ther others who condemn Harry Potter and final fanasy and all the fun harmless things that children, teens, and to a lesser extent adults still enjoy. Oh and in answer to your analogy, the answer is still yes. The game Grand Theft Auto was a lot of fun and it endorses murder by stealing cars and murdering cops and prostitution etc. However, while GTA may be wrong, there is nothing worng with the RPG games While playing FFVII, using the various black magic and spells etc, I numerously incorporated my own Christian thoughts about the game thinking about the morality of the good things and sacrifices characters make.

People are taking this too far.

 

[KnightErrantJR]

Just a quick note . . . someone that has been into the occult or is tempted by it should probably stay away from D&D, but making a blanket statement that it is wrong or bad is much like assuming alchohol is immoral in and of itself.

 

[Neithan]

wjp984:

However, while GTA may be wrong, there is nothing worng with the RPG games …]

You raise a good issue here. I’ve played all the Grand Theft Auto games and found them very entertaining–although when I think about it, the content is pretty hard to reconcile with Christian morals. The player is rewarded for stealing, killing people, picking up prostitutes, drug-dealing etc… where do we draw the line with games? Even if it is all fantasy, the subject matter might be damaging to consciences which regularly indulge in it, (not only on young people).

In RPGs, if someone plays a Rogue-type, where assasination and theft are ‘good’, could that not be in some way sinful for the individual taking on that role? The OP has a good point that even fantasies can be sinful! The imagination is not free from the moral law.

 

[KnightErrantJR]

This is kind of interesting to me, because a lot of you are picturing this as when you play a rogue or a wizard, you are personally picuturing yourself doing what they are doing, and that you are completely in character when you are doing this . . . I have always pictured such things as more like an actor playing a role. Is it imoral for an actor to play a theif or a gangster or what have you? Especially if in the long term in the campaign (the long term connected story) the point is that the rogue ends up being a hero?

 

[pacersFan]

rocklobster:

That tract was hilarious. Wonder if Chick thinks all Final Fantasy 7 fans wanted to commit suicide when Aerith died.

Ha! I remember when I was playing FF 7 and that happened. I couldn’t believe they had the guts to rub her out mid-way through the story. It really messed up my parties/groups, as I had become quite used to having her in there. It was a real tribute to the brilliance of that game.

 

[pacersFan]

Neithan:

You raise a good issue here. I’ve played all the Grand Theft Auto games and found them very entertaining–although when I think about it, the content is pretty hard to reconcile with Christian morals. The player is rewarded for stealing, killing people, picking up prostitutes, drug-dealing etc… where do we draw the line with games? Even if it is all fantasy, the subject matter might be damaging to consciences which regularly indulge in it, (not only on young people).

I played a lot of Vice City when it was released, but I joined the Church before I had gotten around to playing San Andreas, and I didn’t feel like I could play it anymore. I kept going back and forth in my head on the subject, and finally I decided to sell my copy.

There are enough other great games out there to occupy what little time I have to devote to playing games.

 

[Isidore_AK]

KnightErrantJR:

This is kind of interesting to me, because a lot of you are picturing this as when you play a rogue or a wizard, you are personally picturing yourself doing what they are doing, and that you are completely in character when you are doing this . . . I have always pictured such things as more like an actor playing a role. Is it immoral for an actor to play a thief or a gangster or what have you? Especially if in the long term in the campaign (the long term connected story) the point is that the rogue ends up being a hero?

Every gaming group I’ve been in has played their characters a little differently. Some are first person where you always speak “in-character” and voice him/her to the best of your ability. Some are more of a third person “Ragnar attacks the orcs with his long sword” or “Ragnar talks to the cleric about religion”.

My group plays 1st person, I voice my Dwarven fighter (Deurn), and must actually hold all conversations in real time. It means you have to be on the ball & take more notes, but adds a great element to the game play. Of course, after three hours of talking in a low gravelly voice I end up with a sore throat, but that’s the price you pay for playing a Dwarf!

PS> You should hear our DM voice the female Paladin NPC in the party…funny as hell!

 

[KnightErrantJR]

Oh, on the topic of hobbies that take one away from God and His Church.

I know people that spend tons of money on their hobby, never spend any time with their familes, and obsess over their hobby when they are at work as well as at home. They buy computer games that simulate their hobby when they aren’t able to get out and practice it. They skip church without thinking about it so they have time to continue their hobby, and they often curse and take God’s name in vain while practicing their hobby.

They play golf.

 

[carlc]

Anything that’s done to an excess is potentially sinful…including golf.

Frankly, I know people who have let their service to the Church become an obstacle to their vocations as husbands or wives.

Although I’m not a D&D player, nor do I play any sort of video game, I can identify to some degree with both sides.

The folks that compare the game(s) to drinking alcohol have a point. Alcohol isn’t inherently sinful. However, the nude body isn’t either and yet pornography in any form IS sinful.

I think Crusader makes a good point. Although these games can be considered simple fantasy, there seems to be a strong argument for avoiding temptation by not playing them.

I’m certain that the violence and other influences in these games can become “marginalized” with repetitious exposure. The fact that the gaming companies work so dilligently to market the most REALISTIC images is not an accident.

Satan is very good at helping us give ourselves liscence to commit sin. He helps us think that we can “handle” the exposure; that we’re not weak. HMMMM? sounds like a conversation from the garden?

 

[mlchance]

carlc:

I think Crusader makes a good point. Although these games can be considered simple fantasy, there seems to be a strong argument for avoiding temptation by not playing them.

And yet no one, most especially Crusader, ever seems to actually advance anything that looks like an actual argument, strong or otherwise, to that effect.



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[deb1]

KnightErrantJR:

This is kind of interesting to me, because a lot of you are picturing this as when you play a rogue or a wizard, you are personally picuturing yourself doing what they are doing, and that you are completely in character when you are doing this . . . I have always pictured such things as more like an actor playing a role. Is it imoral for an actor to play a theif or a gangster or what have you? Especially if in the long term in the campaign (the long term connected story) the point is that the rogue ends up being a hero?

As a young woman, many, many years ago I used to enjoy playing the thief. For me it was a form of play acting, nothing more. I don’t think that any of my characters ever assassinated anyone. For the most part, I picked locks, found traps and helped protect the wizards when the fighting got to close.

Considering the activity that some of my highschool classmates were engaging in, role playing games seems pretty innocent.

 

[KnightErrantJR]

I do wonder sometimes if it would help people that don’t understand the hobby to see a session actually played. BTW, that Jack Chick cartoon . . . um . . . not quite. First off, no one had any Mountain Dew at the table.

I know when I was in grade school (before I was Catholic, I was raised Lutheran, and went to a Lutheran school), when our Sunday School class started talking about Dungeons and Dragons when I was in 7th Grade, I convinced the teachers to let me run a game in class so they could observe, and they agreed provided they could look at the rulebooks first. The only problem they really had were the diagrams of magic circles in the old DMG.

After running the session (the players ended up fighting a giant crocodile after getting their ship stuck on an island), they agreed that some of the outrage against the game might be a bit overblown, but that it also depended on how the game was run. Fair enough.

 

[carlc]

M.L. Chance, clearly your definition of a “strong” argument is different than perhaps would be necessary for agreement on this issue.

Hoping that you read the rest of my post, IMO the devil’s tool box is replete with snappy retorts concerning how humans REQUIRE their own specific level of proof that a thing is evil.

I think it’s a matter of PRIDE that many people delve into things that they know have even some small amount of evil attached to them. We tell ourselves that we can handle it…or is that the devil whispering in our ear?

I find it odd that even the smallest amount of evil (or the appearance thereof) should be given a place in our “entertainment” as Christians.

Why would you risk it? Would you eat a brownie with even the smallest, minute particle of toxic waste baked in?

 

[deb1]

carlc:

M.L. Chance, clearly your definition of a “strong” argument is different than perhaps would be necessary for agreement on this issue.

Hoping that you read the rest of my post, IMO the devil’s tool box is replete with snappy retorts concerning how humans REQUIRE their own specific level of proof that a thing is evil.

I think it’s a matter of PRIDE that many people delve into things that they know have even some small amount of evil attached to them. We tell ourselves that we can handle it…or is that the devil whispering in our ear?

I find it odd that even the smallest amount of evil (or the appearance thereof) should be given a place in our “entertainment” as Christians.

Why would you risk it? Would you eat a brownie with even the smallest, minute particle of toxic waste baked in?

No, we would not eat a brownie with toxic waste, although I do eat hotdogs and who knows what is in them.

I do not consider Dungeons and Dragons at all evil. I no longer play it because it holds no appeal for me, but I can not see it as remotely evil. If my son asked to play the game, I might worry about his future ability to ever date but I certainly wouldn’t worry about his soul.

 

[carlc]

I LOVE hot dogs…especially with chili and cheese. My doctor thinks their evil, so There you go!

 

[deb1]

carlc:

I LOVE hot dogs…especially with chili and cheese. My doctor thinks their evil, so There you go!

I like hot dogs with chili and cheese also, so I have complete sympathy for you.

 

[KnightErrantJR]

I guess what gets me here is that Dungeons and Dragons has to do with a fantasy world and things that obviously don’t exist. It has nothing to do with reality, it is, indeed, just a game. You are not any more a wizard than you are a robber if you are playing cops and robbers as a child.

What amazes me is that we spend so much time on assuming that if there are wizards and sorcerers in the game there must be some kind of mystical metatext that will slowly erode the will of our children when we can see, clearly, the work of Satan in our modern world. Our children are listening to hip hop music that glorifies sex, drugs, and materialism, and does so by promoting such things IN THE REAL WOLRD. Our children are so poorly catechised that they get more (wrong) information about the Roman Catholic Church from movies like The Order, Stigmata, and unfortunately the upcoming DaVinci Code than from teachers that worry about showing them the faith.

In a way, the reason I still play is that I can participate in story telling that still shows that good wins out over evil, and that heroes can still strive to make a difference. If D&D is wrong for using gods and magic, then using Allegory at all must be wrong. That, to me, seems to imply that all Christian art then must be firmly rooted in reality with no allusions what so ever to anything non-Christian. This doesn’t just eliminate things like Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (hey, just because Aslan was suppose to be Jesus, the fact is that you have magic, witches, and talking animals . . . none of that is in the Bible), but Shakespere, mythology, and a good deal of classical music as well, not to mention famous works of art.

Yes, some poeple can use role playing games to reinforce negative things in their lives. But people can use neutral tools to do many things of this nature in life. This is just one of them.

 

[carlc]

Me thinkest thou dost protest too much.

Is the game evil?..probably not.

Is there the possibility that young persons can be confused by games like this and Marilyn Manson and ‘Gangsta’ rap and Grand Theft Auto? …also yes.

We don’t have to agree. I do think it’s odd that this strikes such a chord with so many people.

For the record, I love C.S. Lewis and Tolkein. Screwtape letters is one of my favorites.

 

[KnightErrantJR]

Maybe its because I grew up having people that never went to church except on Christmas telling me I was Satanic for playing D&D while I never say them in church on a single sunday. It might also be because I think some of the people that chime in don’t have the foggiest notion of what D&D really is, and their imaginations run wild.

Or it might be becuase I’m hyperactive, I type relatively fast, and I have the day off and thus have the time to write out these responses.

 

[carlc]

I had just the opposite experience growing up. Although we sometimes missed Mass, my folks rarely let us wonder about what was right and wrong.

There was no such thing as “I’m okay…You’re okay”… No moral relativism around our house. Hypocrisy perhaps, but no grey area.

Fortunately, as I’ve grown older, my spirituality (Catholic faith) has only grown. Because I’m prone to falling off the straight and narrow, I’ve found it NECESSARY to attend Mass daily now and have for a couple of years.

Your point about the game is well taken. However, I’m convinced that the “occaision of sin” is often closer than we’re willing to admit as human beings.

I’ll have to do some praying and thinking about why I feel that reading about sorcery, witchcraft, demons and such is different than playing a game that associates them.