Dutch government plans to regulate ritual slaughter (no more Kosher meat)

[Kouyate42]

On the other hand, I think it’s significant that London, Manchester, Paris and Amsterdam have thriving Jewish communities even after the Holocaust. The problem of anti-Semitism as it exists in Europe is not as superficial or broad as you paint the picture of it.

And it is not merely a problem of anti-Semitism or ignorance of Jewish customs, but a general problem some factions have with any group that has “strange” or “backward” values. It is a problem that affects Muslims and immigrants and migrants, and ultimately I think, everyone else as well.

Great post. I’ve been to the Manchester Jewish areas before now and yes, they’re very much alive and thriving, if not doing better than ever.

And yes, the issue isn’t purely an issue to do with Judaism, all minorities in Europe including Muslims, immigrants, Roma gypsies etc. face attacks upon them.

 

[Richard320]

Originally Posted by chosen people
snip. We are at a time when a Jew cannot walk down a street with a Kippah on his head, to bring his son into the covenant of Abraham, to eat Kosher meat, to have an eruv in his town, to erect a sukkah on his balcony, to wear a star of David around his neck, to place without fear a mezuzah on the doorpost of his house, to walk freely to and from synagogue, to send his children to a Jewish school without worry, to be a Zionist, to be unmolested when attending a University, to watch a Jewish or Israeli cultural production or lecture without shouts and interruptions. .

Actually, he is telling the truth.

There’s been plenty of government harassment over circumcision. There was a lawsuit I read about somewhere a few months ago where a Jewish woman was unable to hang something on the doorframe of her condo, and there’s been plenty of press recently about how it is legal for an employer to forbid the wearing of religious symbols in the workplace, unless it is in one’s holy books to do so - which means a Sikh turban is okay, but a small gold cross or Star of David is not.

Personally, i think the Dutch government is biting off more than it can chew. The Romans in pre-Christian time had to back down because the Jews wouldn’t yield. And no government since has been able to force them to conform.

 

[chosen_people]

Are you serious? One country choosing to ban kosher meat doesn’t equal anti-Semitism. And most of the practices you list are very much legal to practice and protected under the law of pretty much any civilized country in the West.

This post is pure hyperbole and you know it.

Apparently the Associated Press also suffers from similar “pure hyperbole”- here’s a report about Jews in France from today:
foxnews.com/world/2012/10/08/jews-in-france-fear-wave-attacks/

 

[Kouyate42]

Actually, he is telling the truth.

There’s been plenty of government harassment over circumcision. There was a lawsuit I read about somewhere a few months ago where a Jewish woman was unable to hang something on the doorframe of her condo, and there’s been plenty of press recently about how it is legal for an employer to forbid the wearing of religious symbols in the workplace, unless it is in one’s holy books to do so - which means a Sikh turban is okay, but a small gold cross or Star of David is not.

Personally, i think the Dutch government is biting off more than it can chew. The Romans in pre-Christian time had to back down because the Jews wouldn’t yield. And no government since has been able to force them to conform.

A few isolated cases still doesn’t equal anti-Semitism. I’ve read cases similar to the condo thing you mention and generally it’s not because they’re trying to hang a mezuzah that there is the issue- it would be the same if they wanted to put up a hanging basket of flowers or anything else. Nothing I’ve read suggests that the issue was centred PURELY on the fact of the item being hung being a religious item or specifically Jewish.

As to the religious symbols issue, no, there isn’t a scrap of evidence to suggest the wearing of the Star of David is obligatory on Jews. However there is more room to suggest other items such as a tallit, yarmulke, tzitzot (tassels) or the sheitl (headscarf) ARE obligatory, and indeed in most places such things would be allowed to be worn. It would be the same for Christians, Muslims or indeed ANY religious person you care to name.

You talk about Sikhs- I’ll tell you now that it wasn’t always as easy for Sikhs to wear the kara (bracelet) or kirpan (dagger). There has been much wrangling in various countries’ courts as to whether the kirpan falls foul of laws against offensive weapons and knives being carried openly, and the kara was for a LONG time considered to be merely a jewelery item until various legal cases saw the kara recognized as a religious obligation to be protected under law.

 

[chosen_people]

A few isolated cases still doesn’t equal anti-Semitism. I’ve read cases similar to the condo thing you mention and generally it’s not because they’re trying to hang a mezuzah that there is the issue- it would be the same if they wanted to put up a hanging basket of flowers or anything else. Nothing I’ve read suggests that the issue was centred PURELY on the fact of the item being hung being a religious item or specifically Jewish.

As to the religious symbols issue, no, there isn’t a scrap of evidence to suggest the wearing of the Star of David is obligatory on Jews. However there is more room to suggest other items such as a tallit, yarmulke, tzitzot (tassels) or the sheitl (headscarf) ARE obligatory, and indeed in most places such things would be allowed to be worn. It would be the same for Christians, Muslims or indeed ANY religious person you care to name.

You talk about Sikhs- I’ll tell you now that it wasn’t always as easy for Sikhs to wear the kara (bracelet) or kirpan (dagger). There has been much wrangling in various countries’ courts as to whether the kirpan falls foul of laws against offensive weapons and knives being carried openly, and the kara was for a LONG time considered to be merely a jewelery item until various legal cases saw the kara recognized as a religious obligation to be protected under law.

Indeed the incidents are so “isolated” that European Union has decided to investigate anti-Semitism in member states:

EU to investigate anti-Semitism in member states 6 september 2012
The European Union is looking into how Jewish residents in its member states experience anti-Semitism.

An online survey asks residents of nine EU states about first firsthand examples of anti-Semitic violence and harassment in an effort to identify and confront it.

Concern has been building throughout Europe’s Jewish community following several violent attacks against Jews, including the beating of a German rabbi this month and the shooting of three Jewish schoolchildren and their rabbi in Toulouse, France, by Mohamed Merah.

Ultra-nationalist movements like the Golden Dawn party in Greece and the Jobbik party in Hungary also have Jewish organizations worried about antagonism against them and other religious minorities.

The co-chair of the European Jewish Parliament Joel Rubinfeld told the Jewish Telegraph Agency that the Hungarian Jobbik party is especially worrying because it shows that official institutions are condoning anti-Semitism.

The EJP was set up to provide a representative body of Europe’s Jews to discuss and confront such concerns facing the Jewish community.

 

[TEPO]

Apparently the Associated Press also suffers from similar “pure hyperbole”- here’s a report about Jews in France from today:
foxnews.com/world/2012/10/08/jews-in-france-fear-wave-attacks/

Personally I’m tired of watching the Jews get beaten back and forth in their never-ending battle to exist. But I will say that the resilience of this people is breathtaking. Lord have mercy.

I support Israel and Jews all across the world.

 

[campeador]

Problem is that for most of the industry, that’s ALL the animals are- walking bags of money. There’s little feeling or thought to the fact that these animals are sentinent (up to a point anyway) and feeling creatures which feel pain.

With most ritual slaughter, animals are killed separately from each other and the slaughterer takes time to devote the animal’s life to God (who gave that creature life in the first place) before gently slitting the throat of the animal, allowing it to die quietly and painlessly (blood loss results in a quick death).

I would have to disagree with you my friend. All cattle slaughtered in the U.S. are governed by the Humane Slaughter Act of 1958.

Here is part of it:

7 U.S.C.A. § 1902. Humane methods

No method of slaughtering or handling in connection with slaughtering shall be deemed to comply with the public policy of the United States unless it is humane. Either of the following two methods of slaughtering and handling are hereby found to be humane:

(a) in the case of cattle, calves, horses, mules, sheep, swine, and other livestock, all animals are rendered insensible to pain by a single blow or gunshot or an electrical, chemical or other means that is rapid and effective, before being shackled, hoisted, thrown, cast, or cut; or

(b) by slaughtering in accordance with the ritual requirements of the Jewish faith or any other religious faith that prescribes a method of slaughter whereby the animal suffers loss of consciousness by anemia of the brain caused by the simultaneous and instantaneous severance of the carotid arteries with a sharp instrument and handling in connection with such slaughtering.
animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd7usca1901.htm

 

[Lochias]

As for the unborn, it’s totally two different subjects, but the matter of fact that most of aborted unborn are not yet sentient, they’re just a group of cells with no sentiments, no conscience, no ability for experiences and feelings.

First off, like many other have said, do please prove this.

Second: Sentience be damned. They’re human embryos, and the abortion of them, no matter how early, is ending a human life…unless you somehow think that a human embryo isn’t alive until it magically reaches a stage of “aliveness” in the womb. Talk about a leap of faith…you’d give any Catholic a run for their money with that line.

 

[Candescent]

. What’s important is that this time for European Jews there exists a place where they’re all welcome and where they will always be free to be Jews. Maybe it’s time for them to come home.

I, for one, don’t want all of the worlds Jews in one spot. Especially one spot that is constantly being threatened .

 

[YKohen]

I, for one, don’t want all of the worlds Jews in one spot. Especially one spot that is constantly being threatened .

Since it is G-d who ultimately protects us- or not (see Deuteronomy 31:17, for instance), that isn’t a consideration. In the ideal world, all Jews are in fact in one land, the land of Israel, and G-d protects us.

We just finished the holiday of Sukkot (“Feast of Tabernacles”, and spent a week living outside our homes, inside a booth; exposed to the elements.

This is one manifestation of our trust in G-d.

**Psalms 20

*8 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses; but we will make mention of the name of the L-RD our G-d.

9 They are bowed down and fallen; but we are risen, and stand upright.

10 Save, L-RD; let the King answer us in the day that we call.***

I personally think it’s time for Jews to leave the exile and come home. We’re getting “hints” of all kinds from within and without. When we don’t get the hints- or refuse to accept them, the next hints are always stronger and stronger, until they are no longer hints.

 

[mercytruth]

It is my perception that all humble people of each of the montheistic faiths will face increasing discrimination and persecution in a secular world that is increasingly becoming antagonistic toward the Creator of all. It is my hope that we could unite around our commonality and support one another during such times as this.

 

[Bezant]

Great post. I’ve been to the Manchester Jewish areas before now and yes, they’re very much alive and thriving, if not doing better than ever.

Thank-you.

And yes, the issue isn’t purely an issue to do with Judaism, all minorities in Europe including Muslims, immigrants, Roma gypsies etc. face attacks upon them.

You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It is my perception that all humble people of each of the montheistic faiths will face increasing discrimination and persecution in a secular world that is increasingly becoming antagonistic toward the Creator of all. It is my hope that we could unite around our commonality and support one another during such times as this.

I hear you, it would appear your perception is being playing out daily worldwide and with the US standing on the fence at the moment.

 

[Bezant]

Actually, he is telling the truth.

There’s been plenty of government harassment over circumcision. There was a lawsuit I read about somewhere a few months ago where a Jewish woman was unable to hang something on the doorframe of her condo, and there’s been plenty of press recently about how it is legal for an employer to forbid the wearing of religious symbols in the workplace, unless it is in one’s holy books to do so - which means a Sikh turban is okay, but a small gold cross or Star of David is not.

ChosenPeople is telling the selective truth, and moreover, he reaches the absurd conclusion that European Jews are in danger. He essentially parallels the current situation of European antisemitism to antisemitism in Nazi Germany, one major difference being, today European Jews have rights! Clearly antisemitism exists in many examples he gives, but he ignores that difference completely. How do you attack a problem if the view of it is incomplete?

Personally, i think the Dutch government is biting off more than it can chew. The Romans in pre-Christian time had to back down because the Jews wouldn’t yield. And no government since has been able to force them to conform.

I really don’t see what that has to do with anything.

 

[chosen_people]

Thank-you.

You hit the nail right on the head.

Well let’s read about being a Jew today in Manchester:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-18882619

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-16844472

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119063/One-British-mothers-utterly-shocking-account-anti-Semitism-children-suffer.html

 

[Bezant]

Well let’s read about being a Jew today in Manchester:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-18882619

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-16844472

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119063/One-British-mothers-utterly-shocking-account-anti-Semitism-children-suffer.html

I never disputed your facts and can attest to some that I’ve either witnessed or Jewish friends have experienced in the UK and abroad. My problem is with your assessment of antisemitism in Europe.

 

[504Katrin]

Problem is that for most of the industry, that’s ALL the animals are- walking bags of money. There’s little feeling or thought to the fact that these animals are sentinent (up to a point anyway) and feeling creatures which feel pain.

With most ritual slaughter, animals are killed seperately from each other and the slaughterer takes time to devote the animal’s life to God (who gave that creature life in the first place) before gently slitting the throat of the animal, allowing it to die quietly and painlessly (blood loss results in a quick death).

wonderfully put

I must say though that I personally decided to not even eat kosher meat as I believe that they can smell their own blood and feel that they’re going to die hence must be scared to death, literally

 

[Kouyate42]

I would have to disagree with you my friend. All cattle slaughtered in the U.S. are governed by the Humane Slaughter Act of 1958.

Here is part of it:

7 U.S.C.A. § 1902. Humane methods

No method of slaughtering or handling in connection with slaughtering shall be deemed to comply with the public policy of the United States unless it is humane. Either of the following two methods of slaughtering and handling are hereby found to be humane:

(a) in the case of cattle, calves, horses, mules, sheep, swine, and other livestock, all animals are rendered insensible to pain by a single blow or gunshot or an electrical, chemical or other means that is rapid and effective, before being shackled, hoisted, thrown, cast, or cut; or

(b) by slaughtering in accordance with the ritual requirements of the Jewish faith or any other religious faith that prescribes a method of slaughter whereby the animal suffers loss of consciousness by anemia of the brain caused by the simultaneous and instantaneous severance of the carotid arteries with a sharp instrument and handling in connection with such slaughtering.
animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd7usca1901.htm

That may be what laws say, but what actually happens in abbatoirs isn’t always the case that the animal is stunned unconscious. There’s footage out there showing animals writhing in agony AFTER they’ve supposed to have been stunned.

 

[campeador]

That may be what laws say, but what actually happens in abbatoirs isn’t always the case that the animal is stunned unconscious. There’s footage out there showing animals writhing in agony AFTER they’ve supposed to have been stunned.

Yes, just as there is footage of unborn babies writhing in agony during the abortion process.

The difference is one is against the law and the other isn’t.

 

[Kouyate42]

Yes, just as there is footage of unborn babies writhing in agony during the abortion process.

The difference is one is against the law and the other isn’t.

Much as I agree with you, I can’t see what abortion has to do with this subject of ritually-prepared meat, and especially not what I wrote in that post you quote.

Seriously, what’s with this forum and the subject of abortion? It’s almost like that’s the only subject that’s worthy of discussion in some people’s eyes, and it seems that you could be discussing the weather on here and SOMEONE would make some post about abortion even though it’s got nothing to do with the original topic.