Dutch government plans to regulate ritual slaughter (no more Kosher meat)

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Matthew_Holford said:
Personally, I don’t want to comment on the topic of this post. I eat meat so I know animals have died to feed me. I don’t think killing animals to feed humans is in itself wrong. So I don’t side with the vegetarians and vegans. There is undoubtedly many problems with the whole area of farming animals for food. The crux of this thread is whether the ritual methods of slaughter utilised by Islam and Judaism are cruel compared with other methods. As I don’t know enough about these ritual slaughters and methods used in abbatoirs I don’t want to comment. However, I’m not sure that slitting the throat of any animal can be described as gentle.

On a side note, why do Jews and Muslims believe animals should be killed by this method?
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No. Whether or not it is cruel has nothing to do with this. They could have them tortured to death by Jigsaw and it wouldn’t make a difference. This is about the right to free exercise of religion, plain and simple. Human Rights > animal rights
 
chosen_people said:
Indeed the incidents are so “isolated” that European Union has decided to investigate anti-Semitism in member states:

EU to investigate anti-Semitism in member states 6 september 2012
The European Union is looking into how Jewish residents in its member states experience anti-Semitism.

An online survey asks residents of nine EU states about first firsthand examples of anti-Semitic violence and harassment in an effort to identify and confront it.

Concern has been building throughout Europe’s Jewish community following several violent attacks against Jews, including the beating of a German rabbi this month and the shooting of three Jewish schoolchildren and their rabbi in Toulouse, France, by Mohamed Merah.

Ultra-nationalist movements like the Golden Dawn party in Greece and the Jobbik party in Hungary also have Jewish organizations worried about antagonism against them and other religious minorities.

The co-chair of the European Jewish Parliament Joel Rubinfeld told the Jewish Telegraph Agency that the Hungarian Jobbik party is especially worrying because it shows that official institutions are condoning anti-Semitism.

The EJP was set up to provide a representative body of Europe’s Jews to discuss and confront such concerns facing the Jewish community.
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Europe is a continent. Can you be more specific about where these anti-Jewish sentiments are expressed. I live near the second largest Jewish community in the UK. I certainly do not harbour any anti-Jewish sentiments. I have several Jewish friends. I do not see the attitude towards the Jewish Community you describe. I am in no doubt there are people filled with irrational hated of the Jewish people so I don’t disbelieve you. I would, though, like to know where in Europe this is happening. I could guess but it might be inappropriate for me to mention certain countries if that is not where this is happening.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Europe is a continent. Can you be more specific about where these anti-Jewish sentiments are expressed. I live near the second largest Jewish community in the UK. I certainly do not harbour any anti-Jewish sentiments. I have several Jewish friends. I do not see the attitude towards the Jewish Community you describe. I am in no doubt there are people filled with irrational hated of the Jewish people so I don’t disbelieve you. I would, though, like to know where in Europe this is happening. I could guess but it might be inappropriate for me to mention certain countries if that is not where this is happening.
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Germany has been fighting all summer to claim that circumcision is child abuse iirc.
 
Kaninchen said:
Something of an overstatement.
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I had heard about it on the radio for the blind, they were reading several news articles on the subject. I wasn’t saying Germany has declared it to be so, but rather elements in Germany have tried to count it as such which is fully accurate and in noway an overstatement.
Edit: I just finished the article you posted, and it says that the law approving defending circumcision hasn’t even been passed yet, so it is still in a state of legal limbo whether a Jew can be prosecuted for circumcising his child.
 
From what very little I know of Dutch culture, it seems to me that the tolerant, permissive society they claim to be is rather a Godless society without any real moral compass.

And when it comes to religion… no regard for it whatsoever. 😦 So much for being tolerant of Jews and Muslims!
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
I had heard about it on the radio for the blind, they were reading several news articles on the subject. I wasn’t saying Germany has declared it to be so, but rather elements in Germany have tried to count it as such which is fully accurate and in noway an overstatement.
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To quote you: ‘Germany has been fighting . . .’

Which is an overstatement since ‘Germany’ has been doing nothing of the sort. One regional court made one decision and people have been arguing one way or another since then - the Chancellor, Angela Merkel, rejected the Court’s decision from the start.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
No. Whether or not it is cruel has nothing to do with this. They could have them tortured to death by Jigsaw and it wouldn’t make a difference. This is about the right to free exercise of religion, plain and simple. Human Rights > animal rights
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I totally disagree with you. I do not accept that the free exercise of religion entitles humans (who are animals) to treat other animals in any way they please. If the ritual slaughter of animals is excessively cruel I would support its ban. Human rights > animal rights ≠ the right to commit animal cruelty!
 
Kaninchen said:
To quote you: ‘Germany has been fighting . . .’

Which is an overstatement since ‘Germany’ has been doing nothing of the sort. One regional court made one decision and people have been arguing one way or another since then - the Chancellor, Angela Merkel, rejected the Court’s decision from the start.
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The fact is they not only have they been fighting over the issue, your article show’s the issue is still as of yet not resolved; they are STILL fighting over the issue.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I totally disagree with you. I do not accept that the free exercise of religion entitles humans (who are animals) to treat other animals in any way they please. If the ritual slaughter of animals is excessively cruel I would support its ban. Human rights > animal rights ≠ the right to commit animal cruelty!
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What moral law is violated by animal cruelty? It’s not in the commandments, It’s not in the teachings of Christ, This is what the Church has to say:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
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I was using a harsh example rhetorically but I would count religious obligation as a reason.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
The fact is they not only have they been fighting over the issue, your article show’s the issue is still as of yet not resolved; they are STILL fighting over the issue.
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Actually, they’ve been arguing rather than fighting and it’s not ‘Germany’ that has been arguing, it’s some Germans who have been arguing - just as some Americans have been arguing (the San Francisco decision, which saw a lot of argument in ‘World News’ here on CAF).

The ruling wasn’t binding in the first place but it was a kind of precedent, now the Federal Government is making the situation very clear by legislation.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I totally disagree with you. I do not accept that the free exercise of religion entitles humans (who are animals) to treat other animals in any way they please. If the ritual slaughter of animals is excessively cruel I would support its ban. Human rights > animal rights ≠ the right to commit animal cruelty!
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Judaism demands the ethical treatment of animals. It is clearly mandated in the Torah time and again; commandment after commandment.

In fact, according to Jewish law, we even have to feed our animals before we ourselves eat, and in my family, we make sure that the dog eats first.

There is a story in the Talmud about Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi (Judah the Prince). He was a very righteous man and a huge scholar.

*He was once walking to the Beth Hamidrash (the House of Study), when a calf, which was being driven to shechita (slaughter), broke loose and came up to the Rabbi, appearing to plead with him to save it from death. “Rabbi” said to the calf:, “Go to your fate, for to this end you were created.” At this, a Heavenly Voice (a Bath Kol) proclaimed from Heaven that, as “Rabbi” had not had pity on one of G-d’s creatures, he should be punished with physical suffering.

For thirteen years this holy Rabbi suffered, and then one day he was healed just as suddenly. It happened like this:

A maidservant in the Rabbi’s house was once cleaning a room when she found some newly-born weasels. She wanted to put them out of the house, but “Rabbi” restrained her. “G-d has pity on all His creatures,” he said, “and human beings must follow His example. Leave the baby weasels in the house.” A Bath Kol at once proclaimed that, just as “Rabbi” had had pity on G-d’s lowly creatures, so should pity be taken on him. He was immediately cured.*

The point isn’t whether or not it is a true story. The point is about having pity on G-d’s creations.

And if that’s how it should be for animals, all the more so for other people!
 
Kaninchen said:
Actually, they’ve been arguing rather than fighting and it’s not ‘Germany’ that has been arguing, it’s some Germans who have been arguing - just as some Americans have been arguing (the San Francisco decision, which saw a lot of argument in ‘World News’ here on CAF).

The ruling wasn’t binding in the first place but it was a kind of precedent, now the Federal Government is making the situation very clear by legislation.
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There are Elements of Germany including several journalists -]fighting/-] arguing that circumcision should be counted as abusive under German law. Another faction -]is fighting against this movement/-] has proposed legislation to counter this position.
 
YKohen said:
Judaism demands the ethical treatment of animals. It is clearly mandated in the Torah time and again; commandment after commandment.

In fact, according to Jewish law, we even have to feed our animals before we ourselves eat, and in my family, we make sure that the dog eats first.

There is a story in the Talmud about Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi (Judah the Prince). He was a very righteous man and a huge scholar.

*He was once walking to the Beth Hamidrash (the House of Study), when a calf, which was being driven to shechita (slaughter), broke loose and came up to the Rabbi, appearing to plead with him to save it from death. “Rabbi” said to the calf:, “Go to your fate, for to this end you were created.” At this, a Heavenly Voice (a Bath Kol) proclaimed from Heaven that, as “Rabbi” had not had pity on one of G-d’s creatures, he should be punished with physical suffering.

For thirteen years this holy Rabbi suffered, and then one day he was healed just as suddenly. It happened like this:

A maidservant in the Rabbi’s house was once cleaning a room when she found some newly-born weasels. She wanted to put them out of the house, but “Rabbi” restrained her. “G-d has pity on all His creatures,” he said, “and human beings must follow His example. Leave the baby weasels in the house.” A Bath Kol at once proclaimed that, just as “Rabbi” had had pity on G-d’s lowly creatures, so should pity be taken on him. He was immediately cured.*

The point isn’t whether or not it is a true story. The point is about having pity on G-d’s creations.

And if that’s how it should be for animals, all the more so for other people!
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Let me be clear on this issue. I am not a vegetarian. I am not a vegan. I eat meat. I know that in order for me to eat meat an animal has to die. I do not want to kill any animal I eat myself so I am happy for others to do it, e.g. butchers. The point I am making is that when we kill an animal in order to eat it we should do it as quickly and with as little suffering to the animal as possible. I did say in an earlier post that I cannot take either side in this argument. I don’t know if the methods used to kill animals for those animals to be halal or kosher is quicker and with less suffering than is used in my local abattoir. If it kills animals quicker and with less suffering then I’d be in favour of all animals being killed in this way. If it is a method that causes far more suffering for the animal than I would favour it being stopped.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
There are Elements of Germany including several journalists -]fighting/-] arguing that circumcision should be counted as abusive under German law. Another faction -]is fighting against this movement/-] has proposed legislation to counter this position.
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The Federal Government was against the decision in the first place.

Going back to the original post; saying, as you did:
Germany has been fighting all summer to claim that circumcision is child abuse iirc.
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is an overstatement, as I said.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
I was not claiming Judaism requires animal cruelty; I was saying that even if it did, that would not be moral grounds to prohibit it from a Catholic perspective.
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I didn’t think you were claiming that we require- or even allow, animal cruelty.

But I would assume that Catholic teachings somewhere also prohibit it. No?
 
Kaninchen said:
The Federal Government was against the decision in the first place.

Going back to the original post; saying, as you did:

is an overstatement, as I said.
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Unless the federal government IS Germany (Which in a socialist state that argument could be made) my post was accurate. If I were to change it I would have it read:
Germans have been fighting all summer over whether circumcision is child abuse.

Happy now?😉
 
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