Dutch government plans to regulate ritual slaughter (no more Kosher meat)

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Kaninchen said:
The Federal Government was against the decision in the first place.

Going back to the original post; saying, as you did:

is an overstatement, as I said.
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Kaninchen, you simply rock šŸ™‚

I agree with everything you said on this topic, and I live in Germany; not in Louisiana.

šŸ‘
 
Kouyate42 said:
From what I can remember researching there is a LOT of argument and leeway regarding kashrut (dietary laws) both for the actual food itself and also preparation, storage etc. nd it seems that even rabbis disagree among themselves.
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There are differences of opinion within the general rubric of how things are done. Thatā€™s how it is with many issues in Judaism. ā€œThe Torah has 70 facesā€, as we say.
 
504Katrin said:
Kaninchen, you simply rock šŸ™‚

I agree with everything you said on this topic, and I live in Germany; not in Louisiana.

šŸ‘
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okayā€¦ was that last part a jab at me or am I misinterpreting your clarification of your location?
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Have I understood this correctly? Deuteronomy requires animals to be slaughtered but it does not say how. The method used has been handed down by tradition. Does the tradition go back to the time of Deuteronomy or did it develop later?
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We believe the oral law was given at Mt. Sinai with the written law. There are many places in the Torah with a similar issue.

For instance:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin#Biblical_source

Look at your own Bible and tell me what this means without any other source.
 
YKohen said:
I pointed it all out in posts on the previous page. It isnā€™t about a rabbi making a blessing (and any Jew can learn how to slaughter. Most who do arenā€™t rabbis). The process is different:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shechita
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I stand corrected. I was focusing on the killing part of it, where there really are no differences. As I tried to clarify in my last post, there are differences in product selection after the killing process (e.g., not even trying to make the thighs kosher, for the most part). But there is no difference in the raising, the handling of the live birds and the killing, and not a whole lot after that.

I will accept it from you that one doesnā€™t have to be a rabbi. I only know that they were. Apparently if the product is passed by a rabbi it lends a bit more authority or perhaps cachet. I recall, for example, buying some wine from the Golan Heights. It was certified as kosher and Mevushal by the chief rabbis of Tiberias and Galilee.

Not to go too far afield here, but I bought it as business gifts, and one of the recipients is Jewish. I was cautioned that if he was an observant Jew, and if we were to drink it together, he could open the bottle for me and pour, whereupon we could drink it together, but I could not open the bottle for him or pour, or he could not drink it. I was told (and I assume correctly) that was because the wine was not pasteurized, which many or most kosher wines are. Possibly you are familiar with that particular winery. Yarden. It was very good wine, I must say. Very professionally made.

I understood the reason and was not offended. Religious rules are religious rules. But it did bring home to me how exacting kosher rules can sometimes be.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I stand corrected. I was focusing on the killing part of it, where there really are no differences. As I tried to clarify in my last post, there are differences in product selection after the killing process (e.g., not even trying to make the thighs kosher, for the most part). But there is no difference in the raising, the handling of the live birds and the killing, and not a whole lot after that.

I will accept it from you that one doesnā€™t have to be a rabbi. I only know that they were. Apparently if the product is passed by a rabbi it lends a bit more authority or perhaps cachet. I recall, for example, buying some wine from the Golan Heights. It was certified as kosher and Mevushal by the chief rabbis of Tiberias and Galilee.

Not to go too far afield here, but I bought it as business gifts, and one of the recipients is Jewish. I was cautioned that if he was an observant Jew, and if we were to drink it together, he could open the bottle for me and pour, whereupon we could drink it together, but I could not open the bottle for him or pour, or he could not drink it. I was told (and I assume correctly) that was because the wine was not pasteurized, which many or most kosher wines are. Possibly you are familiar with that particular winery. Yarden. It was very good wine, I must say. Very professionally made.

I understood the reason and was not offended. Religious rules are religious rules. But it did bring home to me how exacting kosher rules can sometimes be.
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There is always a rabbi supervising and giving it the kosher stamp of approval, but he doesnā€™t have to do the deed himself.

In terms of wines, Israel has undergone a total revolution in the past 2 decades. There are quite a few really good, medal-winning wines from different wineries. It used to be what we called ā€œyayin patishimā€; hammer wines; like getting hit in the head with a hammer.

In terms of rules, it isnā€™t just kosher issues. It is in everything. On that note, Ihave to run out and pray. BBL.

BTW- You seem to know quite a bit.
 
YKohen said:
We believe the oral law was given at Mt. Sinai with the written law. There are many places in the Torah with a similar issue.

For instance:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin#Biblical_source

Look at your own Bible and tell me what this means without any other source.
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Can I just clarify? You want me to read Ex. 13:9; Ex. 13:16; Deut. 6:8; Deut. 11:18. Then to tell you what I think those passages mean? I hate tests. Iā€™ve got a note from my mum:D
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
okayā€¦ was that last part a jab at me or am I misinterpreting your clarification of your location?
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no, I donā€™t jab anyone. I was trying to underline how much I enjoy Kaninchensā€™ posts, and actually everytime I come across them.

I could change my ā€œlocationā€ settings but I love Lousiana too much. I feel more home over there than I do feel here. Miss it alot.
 
chosen_people said:
It seems inevitable that eventually the situation for all Jews in Europe will resemble the current situation of the Jews living in Malmo Sweden. There is a growing exodus of Jews already going on in Europe.
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Itā€™s concerning, but it doesnā€™t need to be inevitable.
 
Bezant said:
Itā€™s concerning, but it doesnā€™t need to be inevitable.
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The questions are how would it possibly change? Are there any signs of it changing?

Inevitable is an absolute word, but I personally donā€™t see any way that it will get better in the foreseeable future.
 
YKohen said:
The questions are how would it possibly change? Are there any signs of it changing?

Inevitable is an absolute word, but I personally donā€™t see any way that it will get better in the foreseeable future.
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I donā€™t either.

Europe is pretty supine in many ways right now, but it can be otherwise. Somebody will surely critique what Iā€™m going to say, but it is my belief that, notwithstanding the EU and all that, Europe is tribal in ways the U.S. is not. I recall some wag saying, only partly in jest, that every western European war from Charlemagne on has been the unending struggle between the Saxons and the Franks.

Europe is now being slowly beset by Muslims, largely from North Africa, but also from Turkey. That might be the stage setting for one of its periodic tribal upheavals; a Battle of Tours played out in policy. Why, then, would Europe take it out on the Jews?

Well, because Europe has long tended to do that. Times are bad economically, blame the Jews. The Saracens have taken over the Holy Land, blame the Jews. Communism threatens, blame the Jews. Jews in Europe are sometimes like the battered wife whose husband gets pushed around in a bar then comes home and takes it out on her.

I am of European extraction. I donā€™t hate Europe or Europeans. Far from it. But one thing about European-Americans is that weā€™re not really tribal in the same way here that we were there, St. Patrickā€™s Day festivities notwithstanding. And we have overlapping tribal affiliations by region as well. Irish northerners are not like Irish southerners in this country.

Jews are, by near definition, a ā€œtribeā€, and theyā€™re not the dominant one anywhere but in Israel. When things go tribal, itā€™s often the little tribe that gets hurt first.
 
Hmmā€¦

Has anyone been able to track down as to why the Dutch government is seeking this form of regulation? Did they even bother to give a reason?
 
TheAtheist said:
Hmmā€¦

Has anyone been able to track down as to why the Dutch government is seeking this form of regulation? Did they even bother to give a reason?
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Last I heard (summer sometime) the Parliament heavily voted down the proposal.
 
YKohen said:
The questions are how would it possibly change? Are there any signs of it changing?

Inevitable is an absolute word, but I personally donā€™t see any way that it will get better in the foreseeable future.
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I certainly believe in the potential even if signs of change arenā€™t obvious. Itā€™s a matter of the right people paying attention to antisemitism and confronting it properly. Maybe that means a drop in the ocean, but Iā€™ve been surprised by the change in heart and thought Iā€™ve seen in some people.
 
Kaninchen said:
Last I heard (summer sometime) the Parliament heavily voted down the proposal.
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Hmm. Was there a lobbying group (animal rights?) pressing for such a law? Or the business community (butchers, meat providers, etc?)

Overall, the proposed law seems a little weird.
 
TheAtheist said:
Hmm. Was there a lobbying group (animal rights?) pressing for such a law? Or the business community (butchers, meat providers, etc?)

Overall, the proposed law seems a little weird.
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I canā€™t remember, I get my Dutch news by periodic visits to the Radio Netherlands site.
 
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