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Bezant
Guest
I remember that creepy Geert Wilders.
Dutch government plans to regulate ritual slaughter (no more Kosher meat)
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504Katrin
Guest
A Jew who hunts his own kosher food would have to be very athletic. He’d have to be quicker that his meal, catch them with his hands, and contain them
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
You make two very interesting points. First, why do you find it bizarre that a government might want to do this? I am sure there are laws in many countries that regulate how animals are slaughtered. Would it be so unusual for the Dutch government to want to regulate this method of slaughter? The second point you raise seems to me that you suspect the Dutch government might have wanted to prevent this method of slaughter not on animal cruelty grounds but for some other motive. Do you believe the Dutch government want to ban a method of slaughter that is required for meat to be halal or kosher? On what grounds would you believe they wanted to achieve this? I am not an expert on the Dutch. However, a good friend of mine lives and works in the Netherlands. He says the only thing the Dutch are intolerant of is intolerance. I have gained the impression that it is a very fair society that abhors discrimination. On that basis I find it hard to consider the Dutch would want to prevent Jews and Muslims from fulfilling a particular religious observation.
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Kaninchen
Guest
The Netherlands has proportional representation and really is a multi-party system of coalitions which are more-or-less stable. In the period in question, the small ‘Party For Animals’ proposed the legislation for its own reasons but the strongly anti-Islamic ‘Party For Freedom’ (which is anti-Kosher and anti-Halal) had a large number of seats in the Parliament as well and, while it wasn’t part of the Government coalition, it supported the Government (so the Government coalition had enough votes to carry legislation). Hence my suggestion that the real target was (in other words, became in a political rather than ethical sense) Halal (in order to annoy Dutch Muslims).
In the UK, we’ve seen the machinations that go on in our (new for us) Coalition Government. In a system where there are not only parties that are part of the Coalition but also parties that are necessary for the Coalition to have a majority but not part of the Coalition itself (no jobs for the boys and girls) . . . .
So, saying that the Dutch Government was doing anything for nice, neat reasons would be stretching it. What happened was that legislation (the equivalent in the British system of a ‘Private Members’ Bill’) was passed by the Parliament (though not the Senate, if I remember) and it all went on from there until the legislation was, ultimately, defeated.
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YKohen
Guest
It’s Biblical, so I suppose one’s view could be connected to one’s overall view of the Bible.
504Katrin said it perfectly. In general, religious Jews don’t hunt. We can’t eat the meat, although we could use the pelts/fur. The most famous rabbinic responsum is this:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/hunting.html
In terms of the Dutch or others, they don’t have to “cater” to anyone. This is the only way we have eaten meat for THOUSANDS of years.
And it’s not like Jews just showed up in Holland yesterday either:
Jews seem to have lived in the province of Holland before 1593; a few references to them are in existence which distinctly mention them as present in the other provinces at an earlier date, especially after their expulsion from France in 1321 and the persecutions in Hainaut and the Rhine provinces. The first Jews in the province of Gelderland were reported in 1325. Jews have been settled in Nijmegen, the oldest settlement, in Doesburg, Zutphen, and in Arnhem since 1404.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Netherlands#Early_history
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
For those of who are feeble minded, can you please explain what your statement means.
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Jack_726
Guest
YCohen,
Is “kosher food” confined to red meat? I know swine don’t count. What about fish and fowl? I see “kosher salt” at the market. What makes it different from regular salt? I understand that meat is kosher by the way the animal is slaughtered, in a manner to minimize suffering, using a special knife to slit an artery, which is highly commendable. Again, what about fish and fowl? How is their suffering mitigated to make them kosher? What about dairy products or eggs? How are vegetables made kosher? I hope you don’t think my questions are sarcastic. I am very interested in this subject. Mormons claim they are the “Lost Tribe of Israel”, but my Mormon friends don’t eat kosher food. Why not, if they are Jewish? I ask them this question and their eyes glaze over. If Dutch Jews can’t buy kosher meat, will there be a mass exodus to the Bronx and Hollywood? Just joking. If you can’t answer, I will ask my son-in-law who is a plastic surgeon in Los Angeles.
Is “kosher food” confined to red meat? I know swine don’t count. What about fish and fowl? I see “kosher salt” at the market. What makes it different from regular salt? I understand that meat is kosher by the way the animal is slaughtered, in a manner to minimize suffering, using a special knife to slit an artery, which is highly commendable. Again, what about fish and fowl? How is their suffering mitigated to make them kosher? What about dairy products or eggs? How are vegetables made kosher? I hope you don’t think my questions are sarcastic. I am very interested in this subject. Mormons claim they are the “Lost Tribe of Israel”, but my Mormon friends don’t eat kosher food. Why not, if they are Jewish? I ask them this question and their eyes glaze over. If Dutch Jews can’t buy kosher meat, will there be a mass exodus to the Bronx and Hollywood? Just joking. If you can’t answer, I will ask my son-in-law who is a plastic surgeon in Los Angeles.
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YKohen
Guest
Her’e a good place to start:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_animals
The animal must be of a “clean” type, and in the cases of land animals (red meat) and fowl, they must be slaughtered properly, and then salted to remove the blood.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_salt
Same goes with fowl:
chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/222242/jewish/How-Is-Shechita-Performed.htm
But not with fish. Why not with fish? We learn it from a verse (Numbers 11:22):
If sheep and cattle were slaughtered for them, would it suffice for them? If all the fish of the sea were gathered for them, would it suffice for them?
While animals are slaughtered, fish are simply gathered. Since it is against Jewish law (and according to us, this applies to everyone) to eat an animal while it is still alive- or any part of one, while it must be killed, it doesn’t have to be killed like animals do.
I think from a practical point of view, it would also be impossible to kill a fish like we do with animals, since all kosher fish have scales (so the issues with how the knife cuts without pressing would be insurmountable), and of course, they have no necks.
Dairy products: The milk must come from a kosher animal. Consequently, many Jews will only eat dairy products where the milk was bought from Jews and this can be ensured. However, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein had ruled that since in the US, when one buys milk, it is, by law, cow’s milk, that Jews can rely on the USDA or whoever is in charge of that aspect. I think it depends on the specific country, what animals they raise most, the law, and how stringent they are in enforcing the law.
Eggs also must come from a kosher animal.
All fruits and vegetables are inherently kosher. The issues with them are:
- That there isn’t a non-kosher coating (preservative)on them
That they are properly checked for bugs, worms, etc. and that there are none
kashrut.com/consumer/vegetables/
chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/82683/jewish/Fruits-and-Vegetables.htm
Not only do I not, but I thank you, because though you, I myself have learned new things. For instance, I never really knew why fish don’t require “shechita”. I never really considered it.
Not my cross to bear.
We don’t consider them Jewish.
Seriously Jack: The Bronx is SO passe. Maybe Jewish grandparents lived there (not mine), but for the most part, the Jewish exodus happened decades ago. The Bronx Jewish population is waning. They moved to the burbs, and they moved out completely.
Yes- look at LA and the Valley, but also look in your own city of Houston (a huge number of doctors, by the way). Same with South Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, and other areas. Why live in the dirty, cold north-east when you can live in the sunny south?
In terms of the Dutch Jews specifically, my guess is that many more would come to Israel or move elsewhere in Europe. I never met an adult Dutch Jew who didn’t speak at least 3 other languages fluently, and many know many more than that.
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Linda_Marie
Guest
The stun gun does not kill them, nor is it meant to. It knocks them unconscious so they are not aware of their throats being cut, nor does it terrify rest of the animals in the chutes awaiting slaughter.
Animal groups condemn slaughter practices
kind? - like this?
Sheep slaughter ‘cruel and brutal’
or this?
2000 sheep face ritual slaughter
or this?
Severe cruelty exposed in slaughterhouses
these were not isolated incidents, but widespread practice in Muslim countries.
If they are going to use a ritual slaughter method, it should be regulated and policed. The animals awaiting slaughter should not be witnessing the slaughter and those carrying it out should know their job so the animal is killed as quickly and cleanly as possible. None of this 10 attempts to cut the jugular. Since 10 cuts is an average, that means that many times it took more than that.
Are the Dutch acting on this due to the rise of the Muslim population, subsequent rise in demand for halal meat and the brutality and cruelty observed in ritual slaughter?
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
What happens to a Jew if he or she eats a non-kosher food? If I break a Catholic religious law I commit a sin, which I must confess. What happens in Judaism when religious law is broken? Is it a matter for the individual and her/his conscience? Would the individual need to consult a rabbi? Would it be a matter for the community?
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sinscriven
Guest
These days there really isn’t a real punishment for it. You can just stew in your own guilt, and the real punishment comes in “the world to come”.
There are exceptions when Jews can break a Kosher diet. There is a principle in Jewish law that the sake of preserving life overrules all over laws, so if you’re stuck somewhere starving and all you have are bacon and cheese sandwiches, you will not be punished for eating them.
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YKohen
Guest
One can always repent:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance_in_Judaism
And in fact, should.
More than that: You would be punished for NOT eating them. The Torah commands us (Leviticus 18:5):
Guard My statutes and My laws which a person shall do them and live by them; I am G-d.
To this, the Gemara teaches us: “You should live by them, and not die by them.”
There are only 3 exceptions to this rule:
- Idol worship or worshipping anything but the One G-d
- Murder
- Illicit sexual relations
When I was in the army (the Israeli army), I would always volunteer to go out on patrols on Friday night to show others that desecrating the Sabbath to protect lives is absolutely required- by Torah law.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Thank you for the replies. They are interesting. Although I did not know of the exceptions, they did not surprise me. I’m sure most religions will have exceptions that are intended to protect human life.
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504Katrin
Guest
Actually King David did that once. He went into the temple and took all of their Shabbat bread becuse his guys were starving.
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Candescent
Guest
A Conservative and an Orthodox Jew often keep a different level of kosher, a Reform- often even less.
When I was studying to convert, the Rabbi said that he was not the ‘kosher police’, and that the level of kosher one keeps is between ones conscience and G d.
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YKohen
Guest
Wait a sec… King David was before the Temple. It was his son, Solomon, who built it.
Ah. I found it: 1 Samuel Chapter 21. Not the Temple though.
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504Katrin
Guest
Yes, thanks, that’s what I meant
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Jack_726
Guest
Why does kosher corned beef taste better than non-kosher? Because the way the animal is slaughtered? I read that scientific tests have concluded that the meat from animals humanely slaughtered, such as kosher, is more flavorful. The theory is that the sense of impending death and the subsequent trauma of agonizing pain inflicted by cruel and inhumane killing methods usually practiced in abattoirs releases hormones into the poor beast’s system that affect the taste and texture of the meat in a negative way. I am not a hunter anymore, but I have heard that venison that has been obtained by gunfire and instant death tastes better than when the poor anmal is cruelly shot by bow and arrow resultng in an extended time of terrible agony before its throat is cut. I am for laws that prohibit bow hunting. I guess there is no such thing as kosher venison.
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Lochias
Guest
I agree. Bow-hunting for sport is, in my opinion, barbaric. (I know not every shot from a gun will kill an animal first-thing, but most arrows from a bow won’t either.)
Hunting for sustenance, on the other hand? Gotta do what you gotta do. The goal isn’t to gloat and hoot over the impressive way one just made an animal bleed out, it’s to survive.
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Kouyate42
Guest
I’ve been bow hunting and it’s a far more skilled task to kill with an arrow than a bullet. Problem isn’t the method used, it’s the skill of the hunter. And too many cocky bow hunters take to the forests with close to little training, preparation and close to no realistic expectations of what they’re capable of actually hunting. GOOD bow hunters train under another more experienced hunter for a while, learning to select the correct equipment and what prey they’re capable of hunting, only moving onto more difficult types of prey after they become more confident. Good hunters are also highly trained in how to judge kill shots for each specific type of animal.
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