Dwelling on the negative

[BillyT92679]

An observation.
I guess ever since I moved here to this Diocese from a very orthodox parish, my focus has been all that is wrong with American Catholicism. Bad liturgies, inconsequential homilies, etc. But I’m starting to wonder if that just isn’t healthy. I know we have to be steadfast against the Evil One and against heterodoxy, but it seems like we orthodox Catholics do get caught up in a potentially legalistic view of the Faith; we diminish all of the wonderful positives of the faith as we kvetch about what is wrong. I know our dander has to be gotten up with everything is wrong, but I wish we oftentimes just looked at the rich heritage of the Faith, wonderful writings by the Saints, the glory of Sacred Scripture, the reception of Our Most Holy Lord whenever receive the Holy Eucharist.
I have seen good orthodox Catholics in this Diocese of Rochester who do nothing but complain about what is bad, and never, ever, talk about what is enriching or fulfilling about the Universal Church. Maybe it’s just me, but I wish we didn’t just talk about what was wrong all the time.

 

[mikev]

You might be on to something here. Some orthodox can be too rigid and some NO’s can be too permissive. The truth is there are some good points about both.

We should be focusing more on the positive; on what unites us instead of what divides us.

 

[BillyT92679]

I think the thing is, the progressives went off the deep end when their vociferous desire to remove everything traditional. A reaction that orthodox Catholics had was to return to their roots. This meant a recognition of traditional devotions, a love for a more traditional form of the Mass, all wonderful things. However, I think some orthodox Catholics retreated to an almost Levitical priesthood understanding of Catholicism, worrying more about the laws and procedures of the Faith more than the Faith itself.

 

[space_ghost]

BillyT92679:

I think the thing is, the progressives went off the deep end when their vociferous desire to remove everything traditional. A reaction that orthodox Catholics had was to return to their roots. This meant a recognition of traditional devotions, a love for a more traditional form of the Mass, all wonderful things. However, I think some orthodox Catholics retreated to an almost Levitical priesthood understanding of Catholicism, worrying more about the laws and procedures of the Faith more than the Faith itself.

great thread, good post:thumbsup:

 

[julieanne]

BillyT92679:

An observation.
I guess ever since I moved here to this Diocese from a very orthodox parish, my focus has been all that is wrong with American Catholicism. Bad liturgies, inconsequential homilies, etc. But I’m starting to wonder if that just isn’t healthy. I know we have to be steadfast against the Evil One and against heterodoxy, but it seems like we orthodox Catholics do get caught up in a potentially legalistic view of the Faith; we diminish all of the wonderful positives of the faith as we kvetch about what is wrong. I know our dander has to be gotten up with everything is wrong, but I wish we oftentimes just looked at the rich heritage of the Faith, wonderful writings by the Saints, the glory of Sacred Scripture, the reception of Our Most Holy Lord whenever receive the Holy Eucharist.
I have seen good orthodox Catholics in this Diocese of Rochester who do nothing but complain about what is bad, and never, ever, talk about what is enriching or fulfilling about the Universal Church. Maybe it’s just me, but I wish we didn’t just talk about what was wrong all the time.

I believe you are on the right track! GEtting back to the fundemental reason behind our faith is the most important. It has been my experience,especially in a small rural area, that many people go to mass to fulfill a chore. Many people look at it as something they do and really don’t know why anymore. Many more people feel as if the church should conform to thier needs. That is simply wrong. We are the servants of God. We conform to His teachings not visa versa.

It is considerably easy to pick at, and complain about the church you are in. Yet much harder to start working on the things that you see as a potential downfall of a particular church in a particular area. If there are things that seem not quite right or things you wish to be better, BE PROACTIVE. Speak with your Pastor. Do not join complaint sessions. If you do, instead of listening to the complaints and having them build up to a boiling point, take each complaint and ask, “What can we do to make it better?” I am a firm believer that you should never, in any situation, put a complaint out on the table and leave it. Before you say it you need to think about what can be done to rectify the situation. It will at least make others think a little harder about thier complaints. ( I like to think so anyway)

 

[netmilsmom]

BillyT92679:

I think the thing is, the progressives went off the deep end when their vociferous desire to remove everything traditional. A reaction that orthodox Catholics had was to return to their roots. This meant a recognition of traditional devotions, a love for a more traditional form of the Mass, all wonderful things. However, I think some orthodox Catholics retreated to an almost Levitical priesthood understanding of Catholicism, worrying more about the laws and procedures of the Faith more than the Faith itself.

What you are saying is true.
However one of the reasons why the more traditional Catholics do this is because we have been ignored and marginalized for so long that we have fallen to despair. Those who despair become depressed crying to anyone who will listen hoping for justice.

With our new Papa, we see a ray of hope. If the US Bishops go along with all that he has written, everyone can have the kind of liturgy that makes one feel the most in tune with Our Lord.

Up until now, the “Deep Catholics” have not seen it.

 

[netmilsmom]

julieanne:

It is considerably easy to pick at, and complain about the church you are in. Yet much harder to start working on the things that you see as a potential downfall of a particular church in a particular area. If there are things that seem not quite right or things you wish to be better, BE PROACTIVE. Speak with your Pastor. Do not join complaint sessions. If you do, instead of listening to the complaints and having them build up to a boiling point, take each complaint and ask, “What can we do to make it better?” I am a firm believer that you should never, in any situation, put a complaint out on the table and leave it. Before you say it you need to think about what can be done to rectify the situation. It will at least make others think a little harder about thier complaints. ( I like to think so anyway)

Great idea, but watch how quickly you will be dismissed.
I did it at my old parish, my neighbor attempted and one of the moms tried to point out what was wrong with the “Religious Education” program.
I joined the Education Committee, suggested we put instructions for the Adults on the meaning of the Sacraments. I got the cold shoulder from then on.
My neighbor was asked by the Pastor to work on Vocations. When she arranged for congregation to say the Rosary before mass, the Pastor did not show up and the DRE walked out.
The mom was assisting in 2nd grade Religious Ed. She is a certified Cathechist but did not teach for health reasons. When March rolled around and the class had not yet touched on the Sacraments, she went to the Education Committee as well. She was told that it didn’t matter as long as the children got a “good experience” out of the class. She and her children were then shunned.

Nothing has changed there. I left and so did the mom. My neighbor is still trying to no avail.

 

[julieanne]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Great idea, but watch how quickly you will be dismissed.
I did it at my old parish, my neighbor attempted and one of the moms tried to point out what was wrong with the “Religious Education” program.
I joined the Education Committee, suggested we put instructions for the Adults on the meaning of the Sacraments. I got the cold shoulder from then on.
My neighbor was asked by the Pastor to work on Vocations. When she arranged for congregation to say the Rosary before mass, the Pastor did not show up and the DRE walked out.
The mom was assisting in 2nd grade Religious Ed. She is a certified Cathechist but did not teach for health reasons. When March rolled around and the class had not yet touched on the Sacraments, she went to the Education Committee as well. She was told that it didn’t matter as long as the children got a “good experience” out of the class. She and her children were then shunned.

Nothing has changed there. I left and so did the mom. My neighbor is still trying to no avail.

Thanks for the reply. It is hard to find just the right way to go about things like this. The first step for me was not to point out the things that were wrong, but start making suggestions about specific items. I am sorry to hear that so many people are hurting others and not at least taking the time to digest a suggestion before throwing it out. And believe me when I say small rural community, I secretly mean very hard to break into to circle of well planted people. They don’t like to have anyone shake the tree. I learned very quickly that I needed to start small… Now I go for the gusto and usually don’t have many after shocks.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

mikev:

You might be on to something here. Some orthodox can be too rigid and some NO’s can be too permissive. The truth is there are some good points about both.

We should be focusing more on the positive; on what unites us instead of what divides us.

Odd that your sentance would suggest those those who attend the normative Pauline Mass are not orthodox Catholics. That’s horrible…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

BillyT92679:

I think the thing is, the progressives went off the deep end when their vociferous desire to remove everything traditional. A reaction that orthodox Catholics had was to return to their roots. This meant a recognition of traditional devotions, a love for a more traditional form of the Mass, all wonderful things. However, I think some orthodox Catholics retreated to an almost Levitical priesthood understanding of Catholicism, worrying more about the laws and procedures of the Faith more than the Faith itself.

Quite true perhaps.

It’s also true that many self-described “traditionalists” follow what they believe is “best” – even if it contravenes what the Church actually teaches or directs.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

What you are saying is true.
However one of the reasons why the more traditional Catholics do this is because we have been ignored and marginalized for so long that we have fallen to despair. Those who despair become depressed crying to anyone who will listen hoping for justice.

With our new Papa, we see a ray of hope. If the US Bishops go along with all that he has written, everyone can have the kind of liturgy that makes one feel the most in tune with Our Lord.

Up until now, the “Deep Catholics” have not seen it.

Much of this has been brought on by those who have fallen to despair. Rather than work to fix things, the focus is often on fleeing – to a tiny Tridentine Mass populated largely by others rooted in despair, or by leaving the Church altogether for something like the SSPX…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Great idea, but watch how quickly you will be dismissed.
I did it at my old parish, my neighbor attempted and one of the moms tried to point out what was wrong with the “Religious Education” program.
I joined the Education Committee, suggested we put instructions for the Adults on the meaning of the Sacraments. I got the cold shoulder from then on.
My neighbor was asked by the Pastor to work on Vocations. When she arranged for congregation to say the Rosary before mass, the Pastor did not show up and the DRE walked out.
The mom was assisting in 2nd grade Religious Ed. She is a certified Cathechist but did not teach for health reasons. When March rolled around and the class had not yet touched on the Sacraments, she went to the Education Committee as well. She was told that it didn’t matter as long as the children got a “good experience” out of the class. She and her children were then shunned.

Nothing has changed there. I left and so did the mom. My neighbor is still trying to no avail.

It took a long time for your parish to get into the sordid state that it’s in today. It also took a great deal of “work” by dissidents.

No one ever said it was going to be easy. The worst thing one can do is cut and run…

 

[BillyT92679]

I agree. That’s how I feel. I love the Tridentine rite and I attend the indult Mass a lot, but it seems like some (certainly not all or even many) of the people who attend have an insular view of the faith, as if they are the last remaining outpost of Catholicism. Instead of embracing the Church and working for authentic renewal, I see too many people retreating to a kind of Church that they want. We can’t turn inward; that will only precipitate a fracturing of the Church along ideological fault lines. That’s not what Catholicism is all about. Let’s work to unite everyone who is Catholic, around sound and orthodox teaching, but not with rigidity. There is cafeteria Catholicism on both ends of the spectrum.

 

[miguel]

julieanne:

I believe you are on the right track! GEtting back to the fundemental reason behind our faith is the most important. It has been my experience,especially in a small rural area, that many people go to mass to fulfill a chore. Many people look at it as something they do and really don’t know why anymore. Many more people feel as if the church should conform to thier needs. That is simply wrong. We are the servants of God. We conform to His teachings not visa versa.

It is considerably easy to pick at, and complain about the church you are in. Yet much harder to start working on the things that you see as a potential downfall of a particular church in a particular area. If there are things that seem not quite right or things you wish to be better, BE PROACTIVE. Speak with your Pastor. Do not join complaint sessions. If you do, instead of listening to the complaints and having them build up to a boiling point, take each complaint and ask, “What can we do to make it better?” I am a firm believer that you should never, in any situation, put a complaint out on the table and leave it. Before you say it you need to think about what can be done to rectify the situation. It will at least make others think a little harder about thier complaints. ( I like to think so anyway)

That’s the Catholic spirit! It’s easy to sit around and curse the darkness. But if you try to make a difference, you will. And God will somehow multiply your efforts. There is an inherrent negativity in diagnosing a problem. But that’s only the first step. Making some friends, giving and earning respect, that’s the way to make things better. And having the patience to realize that things won’t get better over night. Building trust takes time. But it’s worth it.

 

[rayne89]

Pariah Pirana:

It took a long time for your parish to get into the sordid state that it’s in today. It also took a great deal of “work” by dissidents.

No one ever said it was going to be easy. The worst thing one can do is cut and run…

And if you have young children deserving of real Catholic catechisis? Young children that will become accustomed to and see as normal practices not allowed by the Church. Is better to stay and consistantly have to explain why what Fr. is doing is not correct, or what Mrs Smith in catechism class says isn’t really what the church teaches?

No I don’t believe finding a parish loyal to the magisterium is “the worst thing one can do.”

 

[contemplative]

BillyT92679:

An observation.
I guess ever since I moved here to this Diocese from a very orthodox parish, my focus has been all that is wrong with American Catholicism. Bad liturgies, inconsequential homilies, etc. But I’m starting to wonder if that just isn’t healthy.
I agree. Negativism is very unhealthy.
I know we have to be steadfast against the Evil One and against heterodoxy, but it seems like we orthodox Catholics do get caught up in a potentially legalistic view of the Faith; we diminish all of the wonderful positives of the faith as we kvetch about what is wrong. I know our dander has to be gotten up with everything is wrong, but I wish we oftentimes just looked at the rich heritage of the Faith, wonderful writings by the Saints, the glory of Sacred Scripture, the reception of Our Most Holy Lord whenever receive the Holy Eucharist.
This is exactly what you should do. Concentrate on the Saints, Scripture, Holy Eucharist.
I have seen good orthodox Catholics in this Diocese of Rochester who do nothing but complain about what is bad, and never, ever, talk about what is enriching or fulfilling about the Universal Church.
Sometimes it is difficult to find the time and energy to do this when so much genuine negativity and heresy is swirling about. Some simply can’t ignore heretics and won’t. Pray for those who defend the Church.
Maybe it’s just me, but I wish we didn’t just talk about what was wrong all the time.
If this is what you need to do in order to cope in a place such as the Diocese of Rochester then by all means do it. I live in a diocese like Rochester. I have a family of 4. Everyone copes differently. Two go along with the flow and concentrate on the ‘best’ they can and don’t complain. Two resist the flow and complain all the way. 1/2 and 1/2 and no stopping it.

You need to expect that some will resist heresy and some won’t. Everyone is called by God for a different purpose. All aren’t called to be defenders of the Faith. Perhaps you are called to a different sort of ministery.

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

Much of this has been brought on by those who have fallen to despair. Rather than work to fix things, the focus is often on fleeing – to a tiny Tridentine Mass populated largely by others rooted in despair, or by leaving the Church altogether for something like the SSPX…

No friend. When one is no longer welcomed in one’s church, when one is looked down upon and shunned by the teachers and Priest, it is time to leave.
Jesus said turn the other cheek, not set yourself up to be slapped.

 

[netmilsmom]

rayne89:

And if you have young children deserving of real Catholic catechisis? Young children that will become accustomed to and see as normal practices not allowed by the Church. Is better to stay and consistantly have to explain why what Fr. is doing is not correct, or what Mrs Smith in catechism class says isn’t really what the church teaches?

No I don’t believe finding a parish loyal to the magisterium is “the worst thing one can do.”

Amen!
There is nothing like undoing what is being taught.
In our diocese, they are clustering and closing parishes.
We smart people talked with our feet!

 

[chicago]

One of the key characteristics of Christians is joy.

Given, times are tough in this silly season and it’s important to call to task the problems which exist. But it often seems that those who like to consider themselves the defendors of orthodoxy end up just sounding like perpetual whiners, tearing at the Body of Christ all the more. If that is the best witness which can be offered, then it may be scandalous, indeed.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

I chose to flee to a huge Tridentine Mass populated largely by others rooted in a deep and abiding love for our Church. Then there’s the Pauline Mass I attend, said reverently by a dear old Monsignor, God bless him. People sometimes go out of their way to attend grocery stores, gas stations, dry cleaners, movie theaters and restaurants that better suit their needs. Why should parishes be any different?

I don’t think demanding that priests follow the rubrics laid down by Jesus Christ speaking through His Church can be classified as a “Levitical priesthood understanding.” If so, I guess JPII was guilty of that terrible sin. Not bad company to be in if you ask me and I know you did.

Pirana, I see your location has taken a turn for the worse. :bigyikes: