E.T. phone Rome: Vatican looks for signs of alien life

[Siddhartha]

Funes, a Jesuit priest, presented the results Tuesday of a five-day conference that gathered astronomers, physicists, biologists and other experts to discuss the budding field of astrobiology — the study of the origin of life and its existence elsewhere in the cosmos.

Funes said the possibility of alien life raises “many philosophical and theological implications” but added that the gathering was mainly focused on the scientific perspective and how different disciplines can be used to explore the issue.

Chris Impey, an astronomy professor at the University of Arizona, said it was appropriate that the Vatican would host such a meeting.

“Both science and religion posit life as a special outcome of a vast and mostly inhospitable universe,” he told a news conference Tuesday. “There is a rich middle ground for dialogue between the practitioners of astrobiology and those who seek to understand the meaning of our existence in a biological universe.”

Thirty scientists, including non-Catholics, from the U.S., France, Britain, Switzerland, Italy and Chile attended the conference, called to explore among other issues “whether sentient life forms exist on other worlds.”

Funes set the stage for the conference a year ago when he discussed the possibility of alien life in an interview given prominence in the Vatican’s daily newspaper…

This is not the first time the Vatican has explored the issue of extraterrestrials: In 2005, its observatory brought together top researchers in the field for similar discussions.

In the interview last year, Funes told Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano that believing the universe may host aliens, even intelligent ones, does not contradict a faith in God.

“How can we rule out that life may have developed elsewhere?” Funes said in that interview.

“Just as there is a multitude of creatures on Earth, there could be other beings, even intelligent ones, created by God. This does not contradict our faith, because we cannot put limits on God’s creative freedom.”

Funes maintained that if intelligent beings were discovered, they would also be considered “part of creation.”

 

[tonyrey]

An article in an English newspaper raised the question of salvation for ETs. Are only human beings redeemed by the death of Jesus on the Cross? The obvious answer is “We don’t know” but that can be seen as an evasion.

If the Redemption is restricted to human beings what happens to persons on other planets? If we need to be liberated from evil so do they. There is no reason why Jesus should not have chosen to be born and die elsewhere in the universe as well as here. To our human ideas of economy it may seem unlikely but God’s ways are not our ways. No one could have predicted that Jesus would become a man on this earth, let alone elsewhere.

On the other hand, if the Redemption is not restricted to human beings there is no need for Jesus to have sacrificed Himself more than once. There is no reason why Jesus should not have chosen to be born solely in this world. The infinite power of His love is not limited by time and space…

So what is the most likely answer? I think the immense distances between habitable planets make it unlikely that contact will be made between us and other persons. So they will not have the opportunity to know the teaching of Jesus through us. They will apparently be left in the dark if there is only one Incarnation. And it may seem unfair that they are left in ignorance through no fault of their own. But are they?

Even this world we cannot assume that revelation is the exclusive prerogative of Christians. The great religions all teach the same basic spiritual truths and have had inspired prophets and mystics. Nor can we rule out revelations to individuals who have no religion. If a person is searching for the truth surely God will respond. No human father would ignore his own child…

So I believe the Redemption applies to every person throughout the universe even if they never know Jesus died for them. It already applies to millions of non-Christians who have lived in this world. The Church teaches that we all have a conscience which is our ultimate authority - and this must be true of every person, human or non-human. The way to heaven is not an obstacle race but an invitation to a feast. It is a pursuit - but a pursuit of love and perfection which is not restricted to the chosen few but open to all: “In my Father’s house there are many mansions”…

 

[Siddhartha]

If the Redemption is restricted to human beings what happens to persons on other planets? If we need to be liberated from evil so do they.

Not necessarily. It’s possible that we are the only life-forms that suffer from original sin. Therefore, the Son of God only needed to incarnate as a human.

 

[Detales]

*"Funes maintained that if intelligent beings were discovered, they would also be considered “part of creation.” * This is a glorious example of the arrogance of a belief system, in this case christianist. But Tonyrey actually begins to show a glimmer of imagination inherent in the possiblities of what must be an inevitability: life forms of some kind, sensient even, other than on our poor abused home. Yet the kinds of considerations so far mentioned depend on a very narrow and impractical interpretation/understanding of God, Life, and what constitutes the Universe. In the same way that the Church used to espouse a geocentric solar system, it persists in promoting an interpretation of God and therefore of the Universe unbecoming of the actuality of the happening, despite the rug having been pulled out from under its teachings.

I look forward to saying/hearing more on this, but must be off to work.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

 

[geometer]

UFO Visits Germany on October 4 2009

 

[LutheranDK]

An article in an English newspaper raised the question of salvation for ETs. Are only human beings redeemed by the death of Jesus on the Cross? The obvious answer is “We don’t know” but that can be seen as an evasion.

Why? It is a good answer, since we do not know if the Fall happened on their homeworld as well, and, if it did, what plan God devised for them. We cannot, and should not, assume that what holds true for humans also holds true for every other sentient being in the galaxy.

If the Redemption is restricted to human beings what happens to persons on other planets? If we need to be liberated from evil so do they.

Non-sequitur. The fact that Mankind sinned against God, and thereby brought evil into his existence, doesn’t mean that E.T would have.

There is no reason why Jesus should not have chosen to be born and die elsewhere in the universe as well as here. To our human ideas of economy it may seem unlikely but God’s ways are not our ways. No one could have predicted that Jesus would become a man on this earth, let alone elsewhere.

True, although we don’t know whether or not the plan for them is the same as for us.

On the other hand, if the Redemption is not restricted to human beings there is no need for Jesus to have sacrificed Himself more than once. There is no reason why Jesus should not have chosen to be born solely in this world. The infinite power of His love is not limited by time and space…

Wanting to include any aliens that might exist in the Sacrifice on Calvary is…dubious at best. Jesus died as a human, for the sins of Humanity. He did so, because just as we “inherited” sin from the ancestor of all humanity, Adam, so have those of us who belong to Him inherited righteousness from Christ, as the “ancestor” of the new People of God.

Even this world we cannot assume that revelation is the exclusive prerogative of Christians. The great religions all teach the same basic spiritual truths and have had inspired prophets and mystics.

So…what? God chose to reveal islam to Muhammed, buddhism to Siddharta Gautama, Konfucianism to Confucius, etc, and those persons just perverted what had been revealed to them, so that not ALL there is true?
I honestly don’t know what you’re saying here…

Nor can we rule out revelations to individuals who have no religion. If a person is searching for the truth surely God will respond. No human father would ignore his own child…

1: God can reveal himself to people, yes. But it looks like you’re saying “everyone is blesséd in his own beliefs” (Danish idiom that translates very poorly, but I hope the meaning was clear). I hope that’s not the case - that you’re saying “potato, potaato”?

2: Only Christians are children of God.

So I believe the Redemption applies to every person throughout the universe even if they never know Jesus died for them. It already applies to millions of non-Christians who have lived in this world.

Apocatastasis?

The Church teaches that we all have a conscience which is our ultimate authority - and this must be true of every person, human or non-human.

Does the RC church teach that our conscience will judge us? I can’t believe that’s the case! What about Stalin or Hitler? I’m pretty sure they were very able to reconcile the evil they did with their consciences.

 

[catholic1seeks]

An article in an English newspaper raised the question of salvation for ETs. Are only human beings redeemed by the death of Jesus on the Cross? The obvious answer is “We don’t know” but that can be seen as an evasion.

If the Redemption is restricted to human beings what happens to persons on other planets? If we need to be liberated from evil so do they. There is no reason why Jesus should not have chosen to be born and die elsewhere in the universe as well as here. To our human ideas of economy it may seem unlikely but God’s ways are not our ways. No one could have predicted that Jesus would become a man on this earth, let alone elsewhere.

On the other hand, if the Redemption is not restricted to human beings there is no need for Jesus to have sacrificed Himself more than once. There is no reason why Jesus should not have chosen to be born solely in this world. The infinite power of His love is not limited by time and space…

So what is the most likely answer? I think the immense distances between habitable planets make it unlikely that contact will be made between us and other persons. So they will not have the opportunity to know the teaching of Jesus through us. They will apparently be left in the dark if there is only one Incarnation. And it may seem unfair that they are left in ignorance through no fault of their own. But are they?

Even this world we cannot assume that revelation is the exclusive prerogative of Christians. The great religions all teach the same basic spiritual truths and have had inspired prophets and mystics. Nor can we rule out revelations to individuals who have no religion. If a person is searching for the truth surely God will respond. No human father would ignore his own child…

So I believe the Redemption applies to every person throughout the universe even if they never know Jesus died for them. It already applies to millions of non-Christians who have lived in this world. The Church teaches that we all have a conscience which is our ultimate authority - and this must be true of every person, human or non-human. The way to heaven is not an obstacle race but an invitation to a feast. It is a pursuit - but a pursuit of love and perfection which is not restricted to the chosen few but open to all: “In my Father’s house there are many mansions”…

2 points I’d like to make:

1 The Incarnation was unique, something that will not be repeated. The Eternal Son attatched himself to a human nature.
2 God wouldn’t have to become incarnate and die to redeem. Perhaps he could save an alien race in various other ways.

 

[Areopagite]

For what it’s worth, some of the issues which have been brought up in this thread have been discussed with some thoroughness in these two semi-recent threads:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=384645
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=391747

The great religions all teach the same basic spiritual truths and have had inspired prophets and mystics.

tonyrey, you said a lot of legit and interesting things, until … this. What you say here is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church (though everything else you said, I think, is not). What spiritual truths are you referring to, out of curiosity?

*"Funes maintained that if intelligent beings were discovered, they would also be considered “part of creation.” * This is a glorious example of the arrogance of a belief system, in this case christianist.

This of course assumes that Christianity is false. If it’s not false, however, then it’s not arrogant. But whatever.

In the same way that the Church used to espouse a geocentric solar system …

Not this again. The Church never elevated geocentricity to Church teaching. It is nonetheless true that most people, whether Christian or pagan, believed this at the time as well as before that. Despite the fact that Galileo was persecuted by a local group of churchmen does not prove that geocentricity was against established Catholic doctrine. In fact, Copernicus (the man who was actually the person to propose the non-geocentric model) was never persecuted by the Church and was actually honored by the Pope for his scientific accomplishments. Just thought I’d mention that.

2 points I’d like to make:

1 The Incarnation was unique, something that will not be repeated. The Eternal Son attatched himself to a human nature.
2 God wouldn’t have to become incarnate and die to redeem. Perhaps he could save an alien race in various other ways.

The idea that “God cannot become incarnate again” was disproved pretty convincingly by Thomas Aquinas (the passage is cited somewhere in the other threads that I provided above).

However, could God redeem a race without become incarnate? Good question. Theologians, I believe, are divided on this issue. I, for one, have no idea. It’s a very good question.

 

[Detales]

1 The Incarnation was unique, something that will not be repeated. The Eternal Son attatched himself to a human nature.
2 God wouldn’t have to become incarnate and die to redeem. Perhaps he could save an alien race in various other ways

That the Incarnation is “unique” is one of the fundamental errors necessary for the histoicization of the ancient Jesus story. Incarnation is the conditon of all the children of God, of all humans. Do yu not have a body? Do you not say “I am?” Is not you r"I" permanent while your “me” is changeble? Which is your true identity?Identitiy?

Redemption is your own business, always and everywhere, not just on this poor speck of our abused planet. Redemption is why we have all of the hero myths comensurate with the Jesus story–so we can see that the struggle of the hero is our own. Christianism is one of the most spectacualrly succesful diversions from actaul accomplishment that has ever been devised.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The idea that “God cannot become incarnate again” was disproved pretty convincingly by Thomas Aquinas (the passage is cited somewhere in the other threads that I provided above).

However, could God redeem a race without become incarnate? Good question. Theologians, I believe, are divided on this issue. I, for one, have no idea. It’s a very good question.

Could you give the quote from Aquinas or explain it to me?

 

[Areopagite]

Could you give the quote from Aquinas or explain it to me?

It should be all here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5505451&postcount=11

 

[tonyrey]

What you say here is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church (though everything else you said, I think, is not). What spiritual truths are you referring to, out of curiosity?

God and the soul, life after death, cosmic justice, good and evil, free will and responsibility, miracles and prayer, compassion and love.

 

[Detales]

Areo, I’m with Tonyrey on this one. The values promoted by the Catholic Church have been intrinsic in even purer and simpler forms than those you are familiar with thruogh the Church. And the sayings and teaching so the Saints and Sages who promoted them are remarkably similar in many instances to those of t the Church. It is for this reason that many of them were burned by the early Church, as sure sign of the authenticity of its teachings.

 

[Areopagite]

God and the soul, life after death, cosmic justice, good and evil, free will and responsibility, miracles and prayer, compassion and love.

Well, different religions have different beliefs regarding the natures of these things. So, I ask you again, what spiritual truths are you talking about? What about these things?

Please don’t kill me Detales for saying “about” (because I know you hate that word … although I never really understood why)

Areo, I’m with Tonyrey on this one. The values promoted by the Catholic Church have been intrinsic in even purer and simpler forms than those you are familiar with thruogh the Church.

Come again?

And the sayings and teaching so the Saints and Sages who promoted them are remarkably similar in many instances to those of t the Church.

You’re free to claim that. But it would be nice … if … you know … you back that up.

In any case, I know the saints aren’t infallible, but you seem to claim they deviated from Church doctrine perhaps more considerably than what would be acceptable to the Church … or something. Perhaps you’d like to clarify what you’re saying here.

It is for this reason that many of them were burned by the early Church, as sure sign of the authenticity of its teachings.

Oh, I’m sure. Are you talking about the Albigensians again? We can go there if you want.

Or are you talking about the Muslim spies during the Inquisition?

Let me ask you this: what are you talking about? I recommend you back up your very bold and outlandish assertions (and even though they might be true … do us a favor and give some evidence, please … otherwise, how can we take you seriously?). I hope I’m not being unreasonable. If I am, I ask your forgiveness.

 

[IHeartAquinas]

I would just like to point out that including any other world, inhabited or not, in creation is a no-brainer. God created the universe. Point of fact, everything in it is part of “creation.”

Secondly, the question of “how will we save the poor ET’s” is mirrored by how we evangelized in new lands we discovered on our own planet.

The scenario goes like this:

“Holy cow! There’s more land over there! And there’s people there, too! But they don’t know about Christ!”
“Well, go evangelize!”
“But didn’t Christ only come for civilized people?”
“Hardly. Christ came for all people.”

Any intelligent life beyond our own will still have a person-hood. If Christ came for all peoples, then He came for them as well. Carry the Incarnate Word to the ET’s just as we carried it to all the points of the earth.

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey%between%
God and the soul, life after death, cosmic justice, good and evil, free will and responsibility, miracles and prayer, compassion and love.
Well, different religions have different beliefs regarding the natures of these things. So, I ask you again, what spiritual truths are you talking about? What about these things?

I specified **basic **spiritual truths. Obviously religions differ on their detailed interpretations but they are clearly distinguishable from ideologies based on materialism.

 

[benedictus2]

Even this world we cannot assume that revelation is the exclusive prerogative of Christians. The great religions all teach the same basic spiritual truths and have had inspired prophets and mystics.

Not quite true. The basic truth for Christianity is that God became Incarnate and died for our sins and that God is a Trinity. No other religion teaches that.

Revelation may not be the exclusive prerogative of Christians but only in Christianity did God reveal in the form of Man.

I like this quite from Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth.
"What did Jesus bring if not world peace, universal prosperity, and a better world? What has he brought? The answer is very simple: God. He has brought God. He has brought the God who formerly unveiled his countenance gradually, first to Abraham, then to Moses and the Prophets and then in wisdom literature - the God who revealed his face only in Israel, even though he was also honoured amogn the pagans in various shadowy guises. It is this God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the true God, whom He has brought to the nations of the earth.

He has brought God and now we know his face, now we can call upon Him. Now we know the path that we human beings have to take in this world.

Jesus has brought God and with God the truth about our origin and destinity: faith, hope and love.

In Christianity, we believe in the Gospel and the Gospel is a person: Jesus Christ.

 

[Bluegoat]

I would just like to point out that including any other world, inhabited or not, in creation is a no-brainer. God created the universe. Point of fact, everything in it is part of “creation.”

Secondly, the question of “how will we save the poor ET’s” is mirrored by how we evangelized in new lands we discovered on our own planet.

The scenario goes like this:

“Holy cow! There’s more land over there! And there’s people there, too! But they don’t know about Christ!”
“Well, go evangelize!”
“But didn’t Christ only come for civilized people?”
“Hardly. Christ came for all people.”

Any intelligent life beyond our own will still have a person-hood. If Christ came for all peoples, then He came for them as well. Carry the Incarnate Word to the ET’s just as we carried it to all the points of the earth.

Unfortunately, this has not really been the main focus or effect when Christians have met “uncivilized” or non-Christian peoples, in the past. I’m afraid I don’t have much confidence that we would behave any better if we met aliens. Would we even be able to recognize it if they were not fallen, or not in need of directly hearing the Christian message, or would we assume they were sinners and in need of our guidance? Would such people be able to defend themselves against our efforts to save them?

 

[Detales]

I find myself agreeing with Bluegoat. The results of missioanryism of any faith have generally been devastating, especially during colonial times. Now the damage is less in the physical realm, some actual medical good actually happening, and perhaps some economic, but spreading faiths based on wrong premises is still a highly questionable practice on any scale of evaluation, save, of course, the self-congratualtory values of the missionaries and their supporters. God save us from missionaries!!!

 

[Detales]

“Not quite true. The basic truth for Christianity is that God became Incarnate and died for our sins and that God is a Trinity. No other religion teaches that.” Fortunately not. At least those are not being misled by a near-truth.

“Revelation may not be the exclusive prerogative of Christians but only in Christianity did God reveal in the form of Man.” In christianism the actuality of God revealing in the form of man has been distorted beyond recognition of the actuality, and made into a mockery of truth by historicizing the journey of each individual into the legend of one individual’s ascribed status. There are many useful works on this theme. One to start with could be The Hero With a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. There are libraries of material on this, all, as a general rule, studiously ignored by christianists and other religionists.

As for the quote from Pope Benedict, as good intentioned and as good a man he might be, as well as many of his flock, his statement as you present it ignores the centuries of horrors and violences done in the name of Jesus and the christianist god, starting with the beginnings of the institution. Those, in the balance, seem to me to be the true revelation of the infallibly misguided understanding of the Teaching attributed to Jesus, whose own words belie the Church–if interpreted by means of the original intent, as far as I can see.

Further, Jesus and Christ are so often used as a first and last name that we forget that historically it is only in relatively recent times, the 1300’s I think, that it became fashionable to translate what had been “healer” as “Christ.” The word “christ” literally means “anointed.” It has a very specific esoteric referent, grossly misunderstood an misrepresented by the Church. Jesus, as potrayed, was intended to be a metaphoric example of healing the rift between the necessary localized beliefs of any group of people and the Undersatanding of our actual Nature, Structure, and Being as Man. This has devolved into a dwarfed belief system capable of the attrocities ignored by the good Benedict, and transcended by such as the St. Theresa you later quote and even Aquinas just before his death.

It is because people believe things as you posted, and because missionaries spread such beliefs, that it is vitally important for each of us to re-examine in great depth, detail, and emotional dispassion, where and how we acquire our religious faith. Speaking as a former practicing Catholic, I cannot emphasize enough what a great value this examination will yield. You will not be deceived.

One of the most unattractive factors to an ET approaching Earth, one of the most profoundly puzzling ones, might very well be that our psycho-spiritual maturity has been vastly outpaced by the technological knowledge which we are misusing to our own, and the planet’s suicidal an murderous end. We are not even awake enough to see what we are doing. If there are ETs out there, it would be my guess that because of the imminent failure of the human experiment to awaken a Divine spark on the planet, we are classed a a forbidden zone. This would be due to the toxicity of what Chadian called the noosphere, that being percipitated into our experience as the polution unprecedented by even the worst of natural disasters in the past.

It may be a great misfortune that our broadcasts, especially fictional and religious broadcasts (those being distinguished only by theme) may be picked up by a mature race. Would they want to put us out of our misery, or put us in a corrective Coventry, if they ever made contact? We seem unable to look beyond our own mental necessity to make up temporarily useful stories and find an actual and Real spirituality based on the Allness of God. This is despite signposts and indicators from time immemorial. Are we condemned, despite a now global communication, to die at the hands of our own parochialism? Or, can we wake up to the commonality of Consciousness and tune our awareness in a communion with the Infinite Allness of God?