Early Christian Writings Question

[deborahssong]

Good morning Janet s,

i will adress you first this cold wonderful morning! You say that Sambos and I have a rather dark view of the catholic church…not EVERYONE who is catholic loves it and not everyone models its best. I will agree that I witnessed lies…I saw one thing being lived and the other being taught! Plus I wa so stuck in a no growth mode… Scripture clearly says that we are to rightly divide the word of God, that means to find out what it means for me…or whomever is reading it. I will also say this, the reference being made to what the catholic church says…to do or not do …maybe that is where I have the issues…the word of God should be our diviiding line and from what I can see thus far? The early wriitngs of the fathers line up with scripture. The church sint the only accountability and actually should be second, not first.
Yes there are many within both churches that are poor witnesses and that is alos an issue as well. Keeping our minds and hearts on what we are to do with the gifts God has given us is a must…however we must always remember we are to be witnesses…of Whom we serve. Paul actually makes a statement about this as he says, do not cause a brother to stumble…that means whatever it is we are doing that goes against the word of God and his ways for us ot live…we best think about it first, because someone is always watching.
I do appreciate one of your statements…our dark view of the church…I never really thought of it like that before now…so maybe my heart is being grieved so I can heal from that and forgive the church, once and for all. Yes I know there are true christian catholics within who love the Lord with all of their hearts and beleive in all of what His word says …all of it…my dad is one of those people. He loves the Lord and he beleives in al of the gifts, as that was his background, penetcostal. He converted for my mothers sake…in the beginning…however he has grown much in the church. he and I have some really good talks about this…
In 1cor 5;11,12 Paukl is addressing the issue WITHIN the church of addressing sexual immorailty. Read what he says…But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother( that is a christian) , who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolator or a reviler,or a “drunkard”, or an extortioner—not even eat with such a person. For what have i to do with JUDGING those who are outside? do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person. …In some translations it says ot expel him from your midst! until he repents… This is to the church…and why would he say that? Because the church is suppose to set itself apart as a holy and blameless people…repentance is available for all !!!through the Blood of Jesus! No reason to STAY in sin. From what I can study and understand Paul dealt hasrhly with matters such as these as did the early fathers. The didache says so…, that is they laid out a plan fro life…the right way to live…so I do not beleive as a leader that I am out of line by calling cards as they are…Plus the pastor of our church at the time Ieft was an alcoholic…and bad…had been in rehab several times then when I left he had to go away for a long time…what does that say in reference to what i just said ot you about 1 cor 5;11,12?
What I seek most of all if you can see this with me folks, is I desire truth so much…His! That is all. I just want ot make sure I am not making any more mistakes when it comes to churches. You are right there are no perfect churches but we should still see fruit of His work on the cross! On that note I wll close. I know the there are loving people within the catholci church who serve God well…I know that. and eys I believe getting inot a good one may help. I am meeting with a catholic priest soon to talk with him…about all of my questions and searches…May God Bless you.

Debbie

 

[sambos671]

The Church is continually in need of reform, and that didn’t start or end with Martin Luther. Many of our Catholic saints worked to reform the Church from within, and many committed Catholics continue to do that today. Look at the examples we have in St Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa, Ignatius Loyola, Pope John Paul II, or St John of the Cross. These are just a few examples, but there are many, many more.

It sounds like you (both Deborah and Sambos) have a very dark view of the history of the Catholic Church. You might consider that not everything you were taught about Church history is the truth.

Both of you should start reading about the saints. One book I recommend is The Story of a Soul by Therese of Lisieux. I can’t imagine anyone loving Jesus more than she did.

Anyway, I guarantee that if you both get back in the Catholic Church, you will find holy, committed Catholics to fellowship with. They are out there, and you will find them. A sure way to find them is by praying to God and asking Him to bring them to you. How could He deny you a prayer like that?

I don’t think I have a dark view of Church history. I believe its accurate. The Catholic church does have its dark moments. That’s not to say that Protestants didn’t. They did. There is enough immorality and murders to go around. As I study and reevaluate Catholic theology I am often aghast at the divergence of the magesterium and lives lived out by most Catholics I see. I was just trying to put a reason behind it. My hypothesis was as I’ve stated previously in an earlier post. The problem we see today in the marginal christian lives of many Catholics is based in its history not teaching. Again, I’m not saying there aren’t exceptional Catholics like St. Dominic, St. Francis, Mthr Teressa, Popes Gregory I and Leo I, Cuthbert, Patrick, and many upon many others. Keep in mind there are exceptional protestants as well such as George Muller, Bonhoffer, Billy Graham, Elizabeth’s Elliots husband and other martyrs who suffered for the knowledge of Jesus Christ. I love God. Without protestants I honestly do not believe I would have study scripture and develop a life changing relationship with him and become “transformed by the renewing of your mind”. I would have done as my brother has and safe Christ for Sat. and Sun. So, I could party and live as I wanted during the week. Protestants evangelized in a way that I understood a need for rebith in Jesus Christ, not feel everything is ok because I was baptised and I could live how I wanted. Catholics accepted. Now of course its generalizing. There are Catholics that are nothing like that. I rarely met them! Unfortunately, sometimes to present a point a person takes an extreem. I’m not saying the church taught incorrectly I’m still discovering answers that I’ve been wrong about such as the Eucharist. For me it was ineffective. Partly due to my enviroment, family, and aquantices. Don’t forget that renewel in the church always met opposition. Such as St. Francis. The most powerful Pope in history insulted him and would not initially allow for him to start his order. He gave in but it was through the power of God rather than his willingness to follow God. I believe God is answering Jesus prayer that “they may all be one even as you and I are one.” I might be coming back to mass but it was the protestants that allowed me to really understand salvation.

 

[Janet_S]

It sounds like you both are on a journey and are willing to go wherever Christ leads you. That’s what we all should do. At this point He has led you to the writings of the Church Fathers which is a good guide for your journey. Good luck, and we’ll be praying for you.

 

[deborahssong]

Sambos 671,

 Greetings. I love what you said in your last post!  I could not have said it better.  It was the protestants that gave me that training in studying scripture......and "showing myself approved"...1Peter, I believe. Where I developed a hunger for the word of God. I love the Lord os very much and i know I am on the right path at this time!  My heart has sure changed toward the catholic church and churches in general.  My hardness is leaivng and I am changing how I see them........ISnt that what growing in the wisdom and knowledge of the Lord is all about!  
 I have several questions for you........origin of the mass. Please explain that to me......if Jews were early christans then gentiles....how did that come about?  do you know? I was reading the writing of Ignatisus....and it appears that the service isnt actually laid out that way, so how did the mass, in its content begin?  and I am not talking about the way in which Jesus served communion to the apostles.....
  Also please explainn to me about the ideal that suffering for Christ.....my mother believes as do other catholics that when you are sick, that you are to offer your sickness up to the Lord on behalf of someone in purgatory  ( I dont believe either) Jesus' work on the cross is already done and it must be accepted in this life...not here after...I cannot find any scriptural reference to that.....please explain the teaching behind this, if you would or can.   Thanks so much and I look forward to your answer or anyone who can enilghten me with FACTS!  May God Bless your every step.....

Deborah

 

[sambos671]

Hello Deborahssong,

As far as your mother offering herself up to help someone shorten their time in purgatory, I don’t have facts as yet to back that up. It probably ties in with indulgences. In fact, I still need to research the whole concept of purgatory. I don’t know. I do understand the consept of sacrificing oneself for our faith and the catholic church has a good perseption of this while protestant miss out on this. You can see the protestant disfuntion with this aspect of our faith through the health and wealth gospel taught primarily by Pentecostals and protestant charasmatic churches. Pentecostals will say “name it and claim it!” Out of humor on my part I call it “blab it and grab it!” Many protestants make the same mistake as the Jews in Jesus day believing that obediance to the law is a guarantee of good fortune. Catholics emphasise personal sacrifice as well as communal sacrifice. These are to draw us into a closer relationship with Jesus and a better understanding of him. Note the epistles of Paul and the Early Church fathers about this topic. As far as the relationship to purgatory, I have no idea.

The early mass will not look like it does today. The church has grown since then. Is there scriptural proof of this? I’m still researching but here are some clues. Judaism of Jesus day had a literagy and so did the early christian church. Evidence of this is with the Didache. I’m researching practices of Judaism during Jesus day to find some evidence of this. Also Mike Aquilina has a book called Mass of the early church. He’s coming from a catholic point of view. The truth is still that I don’t know but I’ll research it and as I get information I’ll put it out there. I am sure there are others who have researched this already.

Sorry, I could not have been better help in this matter. There are many issues I’m still researching. I haven’t finish reading the Catechism of the Church either. Until I’m shown otherwise I would have to put the practices of suffering for people in purgatory as something I’m sceptical of. Primarily because it sounds too much like the Mormons praying for salvation of the dead. What I do know of the idea of purgatory is that it is a purification place. To help us come to the place of a clear mind, spirit, and body that resemble Jesus’. When the time is complete, we should be entirely prepared for heaven. People there are saved but need to go through a spiritual cleansing. But My understanding may be flawed. Until I read the actual beliefs I really don’t know.

 

[deborahssong]

Thank you Sambos 671!

Your info, though limited on this subject, is still helpful!  The awsome thing happeing right now is that I have been gievn so much to read and study that I am gaining a clearer picture of the TRUTH!  I m also learning to test the spirits even better that I did before!   All of what we hear isnt so!  and yes, I agree there is this new move to sell the gospel......at every corner.........Now I do believe that WHEN we walk in the obedience of the Lord, His word does promise us that we are SAFE.....blessed in allways! , I just finished a study about that ........
 His word days.....Remember He said He is life....He said we would not walk in darkness WHEN we walk with Him.......He is the loving Father of creation and He gave us Jesus.....greatest gift of all ......from what I can see, following Him HAS made me better in many ways and brought me so much in my life that is GOOD>  I do believe that.....but I do not believe in extorting the word of God  for financial gain.....and that is what it is....when they look into the camera and say send me a thousand dollars and you will get your miracle........Now the principle they use is twhat  Paul said in 1cor 9 or 2 cor 9?  About the giving that was taking place for the Jews. That w  sa large gift and he said he who sows sparingly will reap sparingly.......however that is true.....but it still isnt the SAME plan that is preached today in much pentecostal circles..
 From what I have studied God  IS always balanced even in the miraculous!   anyway thanks again....reading in catholic.com today, some great research material, and the early writings of the early fathers.  Great stuff!!!!  Thanks again and God Bless......look forward to more of your posts...God Bless...

Deborah

 

[Janet_S]

I have several questions for you........origin of the mass. Please explain that to me......if Jews were early christans then gentiles....how did that come about?  do you know? I was reading the writing of Ignatisus....and it appears that the service isnt actually laid out that way, so how did the mass, in its content begin?  and I am not talking about the way in which Jesus served communion to the apostles.....

The First Apology by Justin the Martyr,
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians.
newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

“And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.”

Also please explainn to me about the ideal that suffering for Christ…my mother believes as do other catholics that when you are sick, that you are to offer your sickness up to the Lord on behalf of someone in purgatory ( I dont believe either) Jesus’ work on the cross is already done and it must be accepted in this life…not here after…I cannot find any scriptural reference to that…please explain the teaching behind this, if you would or can. Thanks so much and I look forward to your answer or anyone who can enilghten me with FACTS! May God Bless your every step…
Deborah

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church-- Colossians 1:24

 

[Janet_S]

For Deborah,

Here are a few more articles to add to your reading list (just what you needed, right?)

On suffering:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
The Christian Meaning of Human Suffering (SALVIFICI DOLORIS) by JPII

On the Mass:
webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm
“The Fourth Cup” by Scott Hahn

 

[deborahssong]

Janet S,

Thank you for the info.  I am reading right now the apogetics of Justin Martyr. Plan on reading and studying all of them.....plus I am studying the Didache....so intersting as I have been a student of scripture for 24 years and most recentl even greater, last five years?  I have studied Hebrew and actually still am at times. Now I am studying these docs again and I am so amazed at what I didnt know,  about Catholicism. Now saying that I am sure as I was raised catholic I probably studied and learned some of the catechism however lots of time has passed.
I LOVE studying this material......I sat tonight while doing laundry and just really dug into this. Taking the didache and reading the scriptural reefernces from the commentary.  The early church appears to line up its basis upon Gods word.  I found numerous refernces to the Epistle of Barnabas, which I found in the gospel...Jesus' own words!  I found in the didache and the Justin Maryr writings about warning of the prophet who asks for money for himself?  Oh my immediately my reflection was upon all of the ministers right today ONLY teaching about money! and asking for the support of their call. 
  I am so drawn right now....it is really hard to explain to anyone what I am feeling right now. SO I wont until I am guided by the Holy spirit who will give me the words.  I want to thank you so much  for your insight and help and references for reading and studying.  What I am so thankufl for is the training of studying Gods word and applying it to our lives......and at this time I am rightly dividing the word of God,,,,,,,,,studying to show myself approved~!  I have seen so much abuse in the protestant churches we have been involved, which scripture warns us about most of it,  I am NOW beginnig to see why it is so important to have a Main leadership of church doctrine enforced by leaders grounded in church doctirne and scripture. I am starting to see the necessity of that.......and actually? scripture encourges/commands  us to follow Gods plan. How we  have swayed from that in some circles! But I want to say that I am also seeing a shift ot the good....why?  because people are finding out for themselves...the truth...........
   It dsiturbs me so much that there is so much garbage tossed around about the catholic church....in as much it has  to do with  some poor examples, sorry to say that but that is true.  Sambos671 is good example. his brother he says thinks he can live anyway he wants on friday night, go to confession on sat and Go to mass on sunday. Sorry to say I have seen much of that myself......however I have also seen the same example in some of the churches we have been involved in another denomination.  It is viatl for christians to have a relationship with Jesus...personal....just the title we have.. christians......meaning Christ like. That alone should cause us to step back...and regroup!  amen?  anyway thanks again and i am going to look up the references you gave.....May the Lord be your cloud by day and your pillar of fire by night!

Deborah

 

[guanophore]

To sambos671…

I have another question…If the Eucaharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus…why arent more people healed and delivered when this occurs? I have often thought…the living body and blood of Jesus…Matthew thru John…everywhere that Jesus went…people were healed and made whole by His touch or His words!(except in HIs homewtown where there was much disbelief) what is your take on this? I am NOT trying to be sarcarstic or disrespectful? Actually touching Him and nothing supernatural happens? would love to know your take on this…

Thanks and god Bless.

Deborah

I know this question was not directed to me, but it happens to be one of the things that irks me, so I would like to throw in my 2 cents.

I think that most Catholics do not really believe, so they approach the Sacrament without faith, and therefore, it is very limited in effects.

Worse than this, I think most Catholics are living in a state of mortal sin. Some don’t know it, some are hardened. Instead of healing, I think they eat and drink condemnation upon themselves. I was like this myself for a long time.

Now that I have changed my ways, I do experience healing and deliverance in Eucharist,and I know of others that do also.

 

[Janet_S]

   It dsiturbs me so much that there is so much garbage tossed around about the catholic church....in as much it has  to do with  some poor examples, sorry to say that but that is true.  Sambos671 is good example. his brother he says thinks he can live anyway he wants on friday night, go to confession on sat and Go to mass on sunday. Sorry to say I have seen much of that myself......however I have also seen the same example in some of the churches we have been involved in another denomination.  It is viatl for christians to have a relationship with Jesus...personal....just the title we have.. christians......meaning Christ like. That alone should cause us to step back...and regroup!  amen?  anyway thanks again and i am going to look up the references you gave.....May the Lord be your cloud by day and your pillar of fire by night!

Deborah

Thanks Deborah. I enjoy reading your posts.

I too was raised Catholic, left the Church and then returned many years later. Like you, I’m discovering things about the Catholic Church that I never knew before. A lot of us cradle Catholics took our religion for granted and never realized what a great treasure we inherited. It’s kind of like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, we’ve traveled to strange lands looking for something, then we realize all that we want and need is back home. The Catholic Church is our home.

Sambosi talked about his brother going to confession on Saturday, Mass on Sunday, and forgetting about God for the rest of the week. I have to honestly say I don’t know anyone like that. Most Catholics who go to confession are serious, devout, God-fearing Catholics. The lukewarm Catholics usually don’t bother going to confession. That’s a big problem I see now among Catholics in the Church, they don’t go to confession because they don’t consider themselves sinners. Actually a lot of them don’t even believe there is such a thing as sin. But don’t get me going. . .

 

[Herbert]

I recommend www.ntwrightpage.com for some great reading - Bishop NT Wright is an excellent researcher of the early church and 2nd Temple Judaism, a great backgrounder for early church development. He is Anglican, but I hope that won’t hold you back.

Also, some interesting discussion over at www.thepaulpage.com

Mark Strom’s book Reframing Paul is a great work on the early church too, most especially Paul, Corinthians etc.

 

[deborahssong]

Janet S,

 Thanks for sharing your heart as well.  I agree with you...bingo!  Many of them really do not beleive that either....my goodness that has to be it!  If we really beleived that...oh my goodness....we would have the biggest revival the catholic church has ever seen.  Trully.  I realize that many in the church have a sincere heart for the LORD...and quite frankly I am very serious when it comes to my relationship with Jesus.   I have taught scripture to adults and to children... and I love the way in which children RECEIVE what the Lord says thru me> I see the light in their eyes come one, when I tell them that God loves them so much and He made them with a divine purpose!  I love that and truly believe that many adults dont even udenrstand that as well....that they have a divine purpose.......we all do......to serve Him with all of our hearts minds and souls, and strengths.......All of us!   
 Catholic doctrine should of course be taught and actually be a part of "regular" church education.....but scripture is vital to our walk...to live by and I am seeing that progress a great deal within the churches...at least here in this archdiocese anyway.  I had a charismatic leader tell me that he believes the catholic church is catching up with the protestants in studying the bible!  Amen I say Amen!
  I can be feeling down or just tired and pick up my bible and begin to read Psalms...and before too long I begin to be strengthened....it Always does this to me...and God is NOT a respector of persons .....what He does for me He will do for others.....Asa very little girl up till I was teenager, I loved going to mass.....I would sit and just listen....I would go early and there wasnt many in the church....I loved just sitting there......there was something about the atmopshere............the smell of incense and just an awe......I remember telling my mother that I felt God's presence....I felt Him hug me and love me and i never wanted to leave that place!   However when I became  teenage I had so much in my life, that I just got away from all of that and my mother didnt make me go to mass any longer.  My pain from my childhood kept me form God......actually almost killed me.....then when I had my children I had a good friend who was a sister and she ministered to me so much and I began going to mass again.  I loved it and was so faithful.  The something happened in 1984 and I was so angry with the church. AN inconsiderate priest said some awful things that were not from God......so I went home and never went back.  That same year I had the experience with Jesus that totally transformed my life forever and I am still in awe of Him today!
      Janet, I know that I am on a serious journey,   I also know that I have experinced good things within the church, and until I started this posting I forgot how MUCH good.  I had a good friend who was a nun and a good friend that was a franciscan priest....He recently passed away......H e told me years ago that God had great plans for me and I would be a voice for Him...to draw His children TO Him!   Boy did I go the long way around????

Oh God is using me in leadership and has been, and has used me in so many facets of ministry. I LOVE people and I want more than anyhting for people to KNOW how much God loves them…and I want them to know HIs truth, and to walk with Him in total union…that is my hearts desire…yet here I am stuck in this journey…every time I think…oh Ill just stop researching and go about my walk, stay involved in a church, serve, study and love God…then I am drawn like a deer pants for water, for a cool stream…right back to looking something else up again…just a hunger to run to a catholic church and just sit there again and listen and take in…does that make sense? anyway that is where this grandmother is…learning and desiring to know more!!!
I guess I am just making …so sure… that I am not missing God? I want to do what is right truly I do…in HIs eyes! thanks again…God Bless…

Deborah

 

[sambos671]

I was reading your post JanetS and I wonder then who is the real body of Christ? If many Catholics are in mortal sin then the remaining Catholics are actually the real church. If protestants are faithful and live rightly before God (agreed with some misunderstanding). Then were do they stand? Most Protestants I know believe in the Nicean Creed and consider the Holy Catholic Church to be the Universal Church of actual believers that are born again. Not necissarily Roman Catholic. Who is the church? I know this is rather simple but it’s a thought.

 

[Janet_S]

I was reading your post JanetS and I wonder then who is the real body of Christ? If many Catholics are in mortal sin then the remaining Catholics are actually the real church. If protestants are faithful and live rightly before God (agreed with some misunderstanding). Then were do they stand? Most Protestants I know believe in the Nicean Creed and consider the Holy Catholic Church to be the Universal Church of actual believers that are born again. Not necissarily Roman Catholic. Who is the church? I know this is rather simple but it’s a thought.

It may sound strange, but even Catholics in mortal sin are still part of the Church, though they should not be receiving the sacraments. (Recall Christ’s parable about the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13.) The Church is for sinners and saints alike, and both are called continually to conversion. Sometimes serious Catholics get frustrated with “cafeteria” Catholics who pick and choose what they want to believe and openly defy Church teaching yet still want to call themselves “Catholic” and still want to receive the sacraments. (For example the “Catholic” politicians who support legalized abortion or same-sex marriage.) But we have to keep in mind God loves everyone (including cafeteria Catholics) and desires the salvation of all. As long as people are attending Mass, praying, and hearing the Gospel proclaimed, there’s always the chance that the message may finally sink in. We can’t be overly zealous about purifying and purging the Church of its sinners. That was the mistake many heretical groups (including the Donatists) made.

As far as non-Catholics being a part of the Church, yes the Catholic Church considers that they are. Have you ever read the Documents of Vatican II, particularly *Lumen Gentium * or UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO?

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

The Church is a visible structure (with hierarchical organs) as well as the Mystical Body of Christ. Baptized Christians are linked (imperfectly) in many ways to the Catholic Church, and can be saved. However, if a person becomes convinced that the Catholic Church was made necessary (for salvation) by God through Jesus Christ, that person must seek communion with the Catholic Church. If he does not seek communion with the Church after coming to this realization, he cannot be saved.

You can read the above documents for more detailed information. This information is also covered in the Catechism.

 

[sambos671]

Thanks for the sites. I will check this out. However, I’m concerned by your last statement. I’ve come to understand that the Eucharistic teaching in the Catholic Church is correct but for me the jury is out on the Perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception, Purgatory, and the celebacy of the priesthood. Where does that place me? Keep in mind I serously miss some of the Church’s traditions and am considering returning to the church.

 

[deborahssong]

Janet S,

 I have a question....by the way great info!......you said something that alarms me....heretical...to purify the church?  SO are you saying that ALL of the teachings of Paul...and what I have read thus far, some of the ealry chuch fathers, which preached and taught and scolded....to stay free of immoral brothers.....and those who do not live the gospel!  On particluar....1 Corinthians 5;11.12. Paul is so clear about what he meant......he even elaborated about the body of Christ( the church) remaining pure and Holy!  From my understanding the Corinthian church was in grave danger of returning to old ways, pagan ways, sorcery, and the life......plus they had someone acting in lust, in sin, and no one was correcting this brother....the church was allowing it to slide per say....., I know he was also dealing with them getting drunk way too much, and he told them they were in risk of not going to heaven.....if they continued to live that way.....how is it that we are not to do what he did?
 I understand loving someone and yes Gods love is....true, pure, HONEST, ......so how is loving them enough to tell them they are in sin.....how is that not ok?   See I belive the church should see fruit of what people are hearing from Gods word.......lives changed......and such.  Oh sure I know there is still sin within but it should never be said that the church allows this to go on without rebuking a brother ....in love and if he doesnt receive this then he must go. Actually paul uses several steps of disicpline before expeling them.....and only expel them with the hopes of their return, their repentance!  then RECEIVE them BACK with love.   I dont believe that the church shoud teach anything else......and IF Pauls teachings arent in line with the gospel......then whats up with that????
 Right now.....I am just a little alarmed because I am hearing so much about what the catholic church doctrine says......and yet I am reading some of the early church fathers, and other articles....that say otherwise.   This  is exactly what has kept me from returning to the catholic church...............doctrine vs scripture.....I recently read an article from a catholic teacher who said scripture will always line up with catholic dogma and tradition.....and if it doesnt then it is incorrect, meaning the church,,,,oral tradition I guess is where I have the issues right now.....even though your points are good something in my heart doesnt rest easy at all.....even after all of the love I have begun to feel again for the church( that I had forgotten) ....my heart is uneasy.....anyway I would appreciate your response.....and Sambos.....May God Bless you..

Deborah

 

[sambos671]

Deborahssong,
Good point about Corinthians and the statement about the early church fathers. Paul pretty much said the church should exclude from fellowship the man who was sleeping with his step mother! That has nothing to do with Orthodoxy but immoral behavior. Paul was excommunicating a person for immoral behavior for the chance (take that term lightly) that the person will recognize his error and return to Christ. He didn’t excommunicate that man for the Orthodoxy of belief. However, it is important to believe the right things about God. I think the immoral behavior is a quicker path to destruction. Were I agree with the Catholic Church has to do with agreement in scripture and statements of the Church Fathers. They were insistant about not following in immoral behavior. The Eucharist and Authority seems to father the Catholic church but there are aspects such as I mentioned before that give me pause. Also the total acceptance of those who care nothing for Jesus but are members of the church. James said that our faith is measured by what we do. If we are acting immorally then what does that say about our faith? Isn’t a mortal sin by definition one that puts our souls in mortal danger of damnation? Well, if there are Catholics that are in mortal sin, how can they be saved?
As you can see I’m stuggling. I want to follow Jesus. I know for a fact that the Bible speaks truthfully about him. There are no Christian Church that says the Bible is not Authoritative. I can rest that I’m getting good information from there. Oral Tradition of the church is also authoritative to the early fathers and therefore for me. However, the magesterium has changed some since then. I’m not saying that it’s off. But I’m not sure it’s entirely correct. Remember the immaculate conception wasn’t decided until the 1800s. Reading the early fathers shows me that most of the oral tradition for the early church was much like the Talmud. How do we interpret the OT? Christians did it with Jesus in mind. Jews interpret through the rabbonic instruction in the Talmud. I think a thurough review of Church Councils will reveal a developing of Catholic oral Tradition. Things the Church Fathers would not have thought about or commented on. The question is whether all new developments have been accepted or practiced in the early church and are just being named or are they new introductions to the faith? Thus my hesitation. Especially when our behavior as christians is to be a measure of our faith.

 

[Janet_S]

The Church still admonishes sinners and calls them to conversion, but sinners still remain part of the Church and are continually called to conversion. It’s a balancing act between God’s justice and His mercy. It’s just that the Church doesn’t excommunicate every Catholic who is living in mortal sin.

The Catechism says this:

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not 'in heart.’”(*Lumen Gentium *14)

Also, we as Catholics should inform people about the destructive effects of sin. Maybe you recall the Spiritual Works of Mercy, or the seven practices of Catholic charity toward our neighbor’s soul:

» Convert the sinner

» Instruct the ignorant

» Counsel the doubtful

» Comfort the sorrowful

» Bear wrongs patiently

» Forgive injuries

» Pray for the living and the dead

It’s important to keep in mind that we are all sinners trying to become saints, though there are those who are more persistent and stubborn in their sins. Remember too that some of the greatest saints used to be great sinners, for example St Augustine or St Ignatius Loyola. So God never gives up on anyone.

Sometimes we must distance ourselves from people involved in immoral behavior for our own well being and our salvation, and that is no doubt justified, but we can always continue to treat them with charity and continue to pray for them.

It would be nice if we had a pure Church, free of sinners, but this isn’t the way things are. The Church is a refuge for sinners. Look at what Jesus says: “Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but the sick do. I have not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners.” Luke 5:31-32

 

[Janet_S]

The Donatists were a heretical group started in the 4th century. The primary disagreement between the Donatists and the rest of the Church was over the Church’s treatment of those who renounced their faith during the Roman persecution.

The Church chose to accept those Christians back who had renounced their faith during the persecution, while the Donatists insisted that the Church should not accept them.

Once again, the Church had to balance God’s justice with His mercy. The Donatists felt the Church had erred on the side of God’s mercy.

(BTW there is a similar issue now in China, where there are both an underground Catholic Church and an official state-approved Catholic Church. The Vatican is coming to recognize both as being in communion with the Catholic Church, and not all the people in the underground Church are happy about it.)