Early Christians and the New Testament

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Like everything else in the New Testament; you could not claim that the oral words “He shall be a Nazarene” were authoritative without it being written down by someone close to Jesus. If you didn’t have this quote here, you’d never know that it was in oral tradition; unless you can show me somewhere else where this oral tradition was recorded?
We know it is authoritative because the CC determined the Canon of Scripture. Yet, it was authoritative even before the NT came into existence and before the NT Canon was established. It didn’t just magically become authoritative when the NT documents were written. If the prophecy was authoritative now, it was authoritative then. So you have no explanation for how this prophecy existed before the NT, because it wasn’t recorded in the OT. That’s all there is to it. Not all teachings are committed to scripture. Scripture is a subset of Tradition put to writing.

“The apostles at that time first preached the Gospel but later by the will of God, they delivered it to us in the Scriptures…”
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (A.D. 180)

“Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit.”
Bp. St. Papias of Hieropolis, Sayings of the Lord (A.D. 115-140)

“We do not take our scriptural teaching from the parables but we interpret the parables according to our teaching.”
Tertullian, Purity (A.D. 200)

But they, safeguarding the true tradition of the blessed teaching, which comes straight from the Apostles Peter, James, John and Paul and transmitted from father to son have come down to us with the help of God to deposit in us those ancestral and apostolic seeds”
St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (A.D. 205)
 
We know it is authoritative because the CC determined the Canon of Scripture. Yet, it was authoritative even before the NT came into existence and before the NT Canon was established. It didn’t just magically become authoritative when the NT documents were written. If the prophecy was authoritative now, it was authoritative then. So you have no explanation for how this prophecy existed before the NT, because it wasn’t recorded in the OT. That’s all there is to it. Not all teachings are committed to scripture. Scripture is a subset of Tradition put to writing.
You would never even know about this official “oral tradition” less it was penned in Scripture. Now we only have it because someone close to Jesus wrote it down.
“The apostles at that time first preached the Gospel but later by the will of God, they delivered it to us in the Scriptures…”
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (A.D. 180)

“Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit.”
Bp. St. Papias of Hieropolis, Sayings of the Lord (A.D. 115-140)

"We do not take our scriptural teaching from the parables but we interpret the parables according to our teaching."
Tertullian, Purity (A.D. 200)

But they, safeguarding the true tradition of the blessed teaching, which comes straight from the Apostles Peter, James, John and Paul and transmitted from father to son have come down to us with the help of God to deposit in us those ancestral and apostolic seeds”
St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (A.D. 205)
First, no one denies that the Apostles taught.

Secondly, I find it odd that you quote Tertullian who has a lot of beliefs closer to mine than that of yours. And the Church had huge issues with.
 
In fact, an oral tradition did start that didn’t end up in Scripture right before what you quoted:

23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

So even “the brothers” believed this and spread it; yet John corrects it with Scripture.
I think the brethren and Jesus were both right. He was not a martyr. Since this is talking about St. John. John did not know how he would leave this world. It sounds like this prophecy came true. John was not martyred like the other apostles despite being dunked in boiling oil and poisoned with wine. He died naturally at a ripe old age (no doubt he had feelings about that). All of the other apostles were martyred. John encountered our Blessed Lord in more than one dimension before he died too. One way was through the Church which is the Mystical Body of Christ. The other way is through the Real Presence of the Eucharist by celebrating the liturgy. And the third way he encountered our Blessed Lord before he died was in his vision which inspired Revelation.
 
Secondly, I find it odd that you quote Tertullian who has a lot of beliefs closer to mine than that of yours. And the Church had huge issues with.
A sizable portion of his work was done while he was orthodox. His later works slowly fall into heresy.
 
You would never even know about this official “oral tradition” less it was penned in Scripture. Now we only have it because someone close to Jesus wrote it down.
No. I would never know unless the Church told me these words were to be believed.
 
If you look at the Church around the year 300, that’s certainly true. If you consider the Church around the year 35, your statement is not so accurate, as I don’t think any of the books were written yet, much less reproduced and distributed.
Sure, but the same is true of the year 4. The OP referred to “the early church”, not specifying any date, and so I responded in kind. If you want to get into the tremendously long and involved arguments about the precise dates for when each text may have been first written, go right ahead. Personally, I find it less than fascinating.
 
This is snippets of something I came across a few years ago,some “food for thought”

None of the Church’s doctrines come from scripture.

They all come from the apostles, who learned directly from God, and not from scripture.
While God has made known some of his knowledge through Abraham, Moses, scripture, etc. it is only through Jesus that He has made known everything regarding salvation.

It is not Moses, Isaiah, St. Paul, the bible, scripture, etc. which is the fullness of all revelation, but Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught the whole Gospel only to His apostles.
Jesus communicated “everything” to His apostles when He taught them the Gospel and He sent the Holy Spirit to teach them again and explain what He taught and to give them the power to remember all He taught.
The apostles were taught “everything” and “all things” directly by God. So the Church teaches this Gospel they preached contains “the fullness of the truth which God has enabled us to know about himself” and as the Church has always taught it was to be “the source of all saving truth and moral discipline”

The origin of the doctrines the Catholic Church teaches is not scripture, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit who taught the apostles directly.
Since Jesus directly taught His Church “everything” then there is no doctrine of salvation the Church could have learned from scripture.
Jesus said Salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles proclaimed.
Jesus did not say salvation comes from reading the four Gospels, which are the narratives of the life of Jesus.
Jesus did not say salvation comes from believing the scriptures, or reading scripture, or by studying the scripture, but only by believing the Gospel the apostles proclaimed.

Now, we cannot reduce this Gospel to a few verses, because Jesus spent three years teaching His apostles and the Holy Spirit taught them “all things”. It was so much that He had to send the Holy Spirit to “bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

This full and living Gospel was handed down entirely in Tradition.
The Church teaches in the Catechism:
”In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.” Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.” This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

The “full and living Gospel” is handed down entirely in Tradition. Thus, “all that she believes” is handed down entirely in Tradition, not scripture.
Scripture is a witness to this. First, Jesus commanded His apostles to preach this Gospel that they learned from Him. He did not command them to write the Gospel they learned from Him.
Second, the apostles had to take Jesus as an example. Since Jesus did not write a word of scripture when He taught the Gospel, the apostles had to follow His example and also proclaim the Gospel without writing a word of scripture. And since Jesus taught them EVERYTHING, they had to teach their successors EVERYTHING.
There is not a single book of the Bible, not a single chapter of the Bible that claims to be a summary of this Gospel that the apostles taught and preached. Therefore we cannot learn it from reading the bible. It must be proclaimed by the Church. 875.
“How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?”[390] No one - no individual and no community - can proclaim the Gospel to himself: “Faith comes from what is heard.”[391]

The reason the Church says scripture always must be interpreted according to Tradition, is because ONLY Tradition contains the full entire Gospel that Jesus taught to His apostles. Scripture only contains “certain elements” of this Gospel, and these certain elements are seldom clear.

So what was the content of this Gospel the apostles taught and preached?

Since Jesus said salvation comes from believing this Gospel, and not from reading scripture, we must know the content of this Gospel.

Now, even an atheist can know exactly the content of this Gospel the apostles taught, even though they never wrote it. It is easy, all we have to do is learn the teachings the early Christians learned from the apostles. If we read what they wrote, we notice that they all believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the mass, prayers to the saints in heaven, the authority of the Church, etc. In other words, the early Christians who learned directly from the apostles believed the same teachings the Church teaches today. In other words, the early Christians who learned from the apostles were all Catholic. So the Gospel the apostles taught was the Catholic faith.

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I think the brethren and Jesus were both right. He was not a martyr. Since this is talking about St. John. John did not know how he would leave this world. It sounds like this prophecy came true. John was not martyred like the other apostles despite being dunked in boiling oil and poisoned with wine. He died naturally at a ripe old age (no doubt he had feelings about that). All of the other apostles were martyred. John encountered our Blessed Lord in more than one dimension before he died too. One way was through the Church which is the Mystical Body of Christ. The other way is through the Real Presence of the Eucharist by celebrating the liturgy. And the third way he encountered our Blessed Lord before he died was in his vision which inspired Revelation.
Well, the Disciples were wrong in that John actually did die; and it seemed that they believed John would not die:

23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

Likely the last bit is about the Revelation to John. But John is as gone as the other Apostles right now, so a saying spread that wasn’t exactly true about “John not dying.” This would have been an Oral Tradition that wasn’t affirmed in Scripture, and therefore cannot be believed with 100% certainty. Had Scipture said, “John never died” then we, today, may believe that John never actually died.

However, there’s a burial place in Turkey where it is believed John lays today. So he’s dead, and has been believed to be dead for quite some time now.
A sizable portion of his work was done while he was orthodox. His later works slowly fall into heresy.
Some of his works before his “slow fall into heresy” didn’t agree completely with the Catholic Church. See his remarks on infant baptism.
No. I would never know unless the Church told me these words were to be believed.
Yes, this I believe about you for sure.
 
You would never even know about this official “oral tradition” less it was penned in Scripture. Now we only have it because someone close to Jesus wrote it down.
Really?

Where does Scripture say that there will be no further public revelation?
Where does Scripture say that the canon is closed?
Where does Scripture say that revelation ended with the death of the last apostle?
Where does Scripture say that Hebrews is theopneustos but the Shepherd of Hermas is not?

Yet, I presume, you believe all of the above, despite not a word of the above being in a single page of the Bible?
 
Well, the Disciples were wrong in that John actually did die; and it seemed that they believed John would not die:
23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
Likely the last bit is about the Revelation to John. But John is as gone as the other Apostles right now, so a saying spread that wasn’t exactly true about “John not dying.” This would have been an Oral Tradition that wasn’t affirmed in Scripture, and therefore cannot be believed with 100% certainty. Had Scipture said, “John never died” then we, today, may believe that John never actually died.
However, there’s a burial place in Turkey where it is believed John lays today. So he’s dead, and has been believed to be dead for quite some time now.
I read it this way.
  • “So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die (be martyred);”*
In which case, they are both right.

I am not saying you’re wrong. I just read it differently for historical reasons. By the time John writes this, most of the other apostles have been martyred. As i have said in a previous post, the reason they thought John would not be martyred was because he survived being dunked in boiling oil and he survived being poisoned by wine. Jesus’ words only reinforced this idea that John would not be martyred. But ultimately, they were both right in what they said. John indeed did not die a martyr like the other apostles. That fulfilled their teaching. And as Jesus correctly taught, it didn’t happen before John encountered the Lord again.
 
Actually, the Church is pretty sure that Jesus told His disciples to “Be good bankers.” It’s not in the Gospels, but St. Irenaeus and a lot of early Christians quote it as a famous saying by Jesus. It’s related to His comments on the Parable of the Talents.

But it didn’t make it into the Gospels or any of the Scriptures, because Jesus didn’t want it there. It’s something said by God, but it’s not the Word of God in a way that’s important to salvation.

There are a couple of other things that are probably real sayings by Jesus, but a lot more wacky sayings that were thought up by weird sects, hundreds of years afterward.

I’m pretty sure that Jesus also said, “Please pass the bread,” and similar sayings, but they didn’t make it into the Bible, either.
 
I’m pretty sure that Jesus also said, “Please pass the bread,” and similar sayings, but they didn’t make it into the Bible, either.
The Book of the Out-takes could make interesting reading:
3.6 And Jesus spake unto them, and he said, “Lo, the water jug runneth dry. I shall fill it from the well. Doth any of you want aught whilst I am out?”

4.5 And John did cleave unto the other disciples, and professed, “I love you guys!”
4.6 But the eyes of Thomas did narrow with suspicion.
 
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