Early Church CITH: the myth, the legends, the fraud

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I am not getting into this.

But I will note for readers these quotes:

Cardinal Ratzinger (prior to being Pope Benedict XVI) notes that it was the practice of the Early Church.

He notes in God and the World “I wouldn’t be fussy about it. It was done in the early Church. A reverent manner of receiving Communion in the hand is in itself a perfectly reasonable way to receive Communion” (pg 410)

"…we know that until the ninth century Communion was received in the hand, standing. That does not of course mean that it should always do so. For what is fine, sublime, about the Church is that she is growing, maturing, understanding the mystery more profoundly. In the that sense the new development that began after the ninth century is quite justified, as an expression of reverence, and is well founded. But, on the other hand, we have to say that the Church could not possibly have been celebrating the Eucharist unworthily for nine hundred years. If we read what the Fathers say, we can see in what a spirit of reverence they received Communion…

We should be concerned only to argue in favor of what the Church’s efforts directed toward, both before and after the ninth century, that is a reverence in the heart, an inner submission before the mystery of God that puts himself into our hands…"

Cardinal Ratzinger “God Is Near Us” Ignatius Press Pg 70 2001

I also recall but have not found it at the moment-- that he gave an answer as Pope in a Q & A session with Priests that was similar…

He certainly knows of what he speaks…both as Prefect of the Cong. for the Doctrine of the Faith at the time …and now as Pope.

With intellect of this man and his scholarship…his mastery of the Early Fathers…his love and expertise in Liturgy…not to mention the resources he had at the CDF and now as Pope…(his Library is much bigger than mine)

I will go with him. 🙂
Let me just point out that factual historical matters (especially after Biblical times) like these are open to dispute even if a Pope takes a particular position on them (unless he does so when he actually is Pope and defines it as a matter of faith, but that’s not the case here).

I’ve several times heard that the position, once practically universally accepted in much of the twentieth century, that communion on the hand was normative in the Early Church, is now coming increasingly into question (by whom I can’t say- I’m just passing on third-hand information).

It might be that Cardinal Ratzinger expressed a conclusion about history that was mainstream at the time but is no longer so today or will not be sometime in the future. It can be legitimate to go back to the primary historical documents and reevaluate if they really support what earlier generations of historians claimed they supported. That will not, of course, change the the facts of the current liturgical norms.
 
It might be that Cardinal Ratzinger expressed a conclusion about history that was mainstream at the time but is no longer so today or will not be sometime in the future. It can be legitimate to go back to the primary historical documents and reevaluate if they really support what earlier generations of historians claimed they supported. That will not, of course, change the the facts of the current liturgical norms.
Well you said it better, and in a nicer way, than I did. Thank you 😃
 
He certainly knows of what he speaks…both as Prefect of the Cong. for the Doctrine of the Faith at the time …and now as Pope.

With the intellect of this man and his scholarship…his mastery of the Early Fathers…his love and expertise in Liturgy…not to mention the resources he had at the CDF and now as Pope…(his Library is much bigger than mine)

I will go with him. 🙂
 
If the Holy Father didn’t approve of the US norm, he’d say so.
Its not a norm. Norm for the entire church continues to be COTT and this has even been emphasized lately. The CITH thing we do here and throughout the world is not a norm, it is a waiver, an indult, an exception. Words mean things 🙂
 
Its not a norm. Norm for the entire church continues to be COTT and this has even been emphasized lately. The CITH thing we do here and throughout the world is not a norm, it is a waiver, an indult, an exception. Words mean things 🙂
OK, then I will restate it:
If the Holy Father did not approve of the exception used in United States and other places, he would not allow the exception to exist.
 
OK, then I will restate it:
If the Holy Father did not approve of the exception used in United States and other places, he would not allow the exception to exist.
“I am not opposed in principle to communion in the hand; I have both administered and received communion this way myself.” --Pope Benedict XVI

“Light of the World” interview with Pope Benedict XVI --Ignatius Press pg 158.
 
It is presently immaterial what the early church believed or followed or was permitted to do. The fact that you and others overlook continuously in your attempts to reinstate CITT is that this is a lawful practice in the Church, and has been for many years. I truly do believe that this is against forum rules to post against allowed practices in the Church when they are not in accord with one’s personal prejudice. Your theologians have no authority whatsoever, other than their personal opinions, nor do you, my good man.
No forum rules are being broken in this thread. I know from personal experience that the mods don’t like people running around being vigilantes and falsely invoking forum rules in order to accomplish one end or another. They’ll tell us if rules are broken. They know what they’re doing here. Also, I highly doubt the good people at CAF would be infringing on rights and duties afforded to Catholics in canon law (can 212.3). I haven’t seen them do so in the past.
Your theologians have no authority whatsoever, other than their personal opinions, nor do you, my good man.
Straw-man; not to mention mean spirited.
 
OK, then I will restate it:
If the Holy Father did not approve of the exception used in United States and other places, he would not allow the exception to exist.
Thanks! And I don’t think anyone here disagrees with that. A huge portion of the people who are on here yelling at NewstheMan are using straw-man aguments out the wazoo! I’m not sure why. Perhaps he touched a nerve.
 
Spamming, on the other hand, (eg. childishly repeatedly posting the same quotes over and over again for volume effect…) is against forum rules.
 
I repeat, James924, that it is irrelevant what the Church did at any particular time in history. She possesses Divine Authority to change Her discipline, and has done so, despite the arguments from theologians that people present here from time to time who strive to supplant or overrule the Church’s authority. Since the arguments presented in the OP are merely opinions, unless the Holy See determines to change the discipline, it does little good to have stirred the pot with this argumentation.
 
"Sirach2:
It is presently immaterial what the early church believed or followed or was permitted to do. The fact that you and others overlook continuously in your attempts to reinstate CITT is that this is a lawful practice in the Church, and has been for many years. I truly do believe that this is against forum rules to post against allowed practices in the Church when they are not in accord with one’s personal prejudice. Your theologians have no authority whatsoever, other than their personal opinions, nor do you, my good man.
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James924:
No forum rules are being broken in this thread. I know from personal experience that the mods don’t like people running around being vigilantes and falsely invoking forum rules in order to accomplish one end or another. They’ll tell us if rules are broken. They know what they’re doing here. Also, I highly doubt the good people at CAF would be infringing on rights and duties afforded to Catholics in canon law (can 212.3). I haven’t seen them do so in the past.
I repeat, James924, that it is irrelevant what the Church did at any particular time in history. She possesses Divine Authority to change Her discipline, and has done so, despite the arguments from theologians that people present here from time to time who strive to supplant or overrule the Church’s authority. Since the arguments presented in the OP are merely opinions, unless the Holy See determines to change the discipline, it does little good to have stirred the pot with this argumentation.
You’re being ridiculous, you can’t go around saying topics aren’t discussion worthy. You’re just being silly right now and you’re engaging in activity that the mods don’t like. No body cares about your unfounded opinion that this topic is irrelevant. Go find another thread to start a flame-war in.
 
Cardinal Ratzinger put it well in God and the World (pg 410) (quoted above) when he said:

“I wouldn’t be fussy about it. It was done in the early Church. A reverent manner of receiving Communion in the hand is in itself a perfectly reasonable way to receive Communion”
 
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James924:
You’re being ridiculous, you can’t go around saying topics aren’t discussion worthy. You’re just being silly right now and you’re engaging in activity that the mods don’t like. No body cares about your unfounded opinion that this topic is irrelevant. Go find another thread to start a flame-war in.
For your review, James. Incidentally, derailing is a no-no when used to air your own gripes.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7057008&postcount=10
 
You may not make disparaging remarks about:

**Lawful **actions and disciplines by the Church . . .

The OP’s very title, calling the early Church a “fraud” based only on the opinion of two theologians does a disservice to the reader.
 
For your review, James. Incidentally, derailing is a no-no when used to air your own gripes.
Which, incidentally is exactly what you’re doing. Knock it off.

Funny you’d link to that:

Another poster or his/her ideas. You can disagree. You cannot attack,insult, ridicule or dismiss as unimportant. His opinion is as important to him as your opinion is to you.

Obey the rules please.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7057008&postcount=10
 
You may not make disparaging remarks about:

**Lawful **actions and disciplines by the Church . . .
Point out the disparaging remarks in NewstheMan’s post. You’re imagining them. Let the mods do their job. Stop flaming.
 
Threads are for discussion, enjoyment and education. They are not to be used as one uses a blog.

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