And no wonder because this truth will blow fundamentalism right out of the water. But even when you show him the truth, he will most likely still reject everything that came down to us from the ECF’s and continue on with his fundamentalist belief in the Scriptures as the only thing that is relevant to true Christianity.
Remember, when talking with someone like this, always ask for references and make sure the references are properly referenced.Wow. Just… wow.
Ignatius of Antioch’s existence is a lot better documented in writing than Julius Caesar’s.
Now, obviously when it comes to coins and public works that say “Julius built me,” you’d have the opposite situation. But most of Roman history and literature only survived in a few manuscripts, which Christians made a lot of copies of.
Other than recent finds of papyrus out in the desert in Egypt, there is no Greek or Latin pagan literature that survives any other way than through Christian copyists. So if your guy is looking for pagan testimony, why does he believe that if he doesn’t believe his fellow Christians?
And does he also believe that Venus is Caesar’s mommy and all the emperors became stars in the night sky, if some pagan said so?
Bishops, OTOH, were not building bridges or public baths with inscriptions on them, for the most part. (Later you do get churches that say which bishop built them, but that was after Christianity became legal.) Nor were they minting coins. There are some catacomb inscriptions, but those only apply to Roman bishops.
Furthermore, most pagan records of court transcripts of martyred Christians existed in Roman archives, but were only transcribed by Christians writing up martyrologies. We can’t walk down to the Forum today and look up the scrolls about the death of St. Justin Martyr, because the records were destroyed or sent to Byzantium a long time ago.
So basically, your inquirer obviously shouldn’t believe in any historical figures’ known deeds, although he can be allowed to believe in their names and pictures. This puts Roman history on the same footing as the history of the Scythians – ie, king lists and not much else.
He shouldn’t believe anything in the Bible, either, since it came down to us through Christian copyists hired by that evil, evil Church. What a terribly shaky tradition.
Pah. I’m too disgusted to give you a good argument. I’m pretty sure there’s a Catholic Answers tract along these lines, but I’m too disgusted to think of search terms.
You might want to find out exactly what church he belongs to, as any group in the Wesleyan or Calvinist traditions has a founder who leans heavily on patristics.
Also, the whole deal with Origen involved a lot of imperial stuff later on, so he’s definitely very well documented. We even have his pupil St. Gregory Thaumaturgus’ farewell speech, where he outlines Origen’s teaching techniques. Origen was also extremely prolific, so I’d like to ask your friend who wrote thousands of pages of Greek patristics in the exact same style if it wasn’t Origen, and who went to the trouble of excerpting thousands of pages into later anthologies, and why we are still finding stuff by the same guy in those papyri out in the trashpiles in the Egyptian desert!
I have an evangelical buddy who does a lot of patristics study, and I will ask him for ideas. He’s been on the Internet longer than me, so he’s probably heard this kind of stupidity before.
He will no doubt have a cow on the spot. 
Have him google any ECF, and you can probably find the burial place.
Remember, when talking with someone like this, always ask for HIS references and make sure the references HE gives are properly referenced.
He will no doubt have a cow on the spot. they never give up do they??? God Bless, Memaw
It’s likely this guy wouldn’t believe even if Jerome or Clement or Origen or Tertullian were to come back from the dead and appear in front of him.
Great points. I was also going down the road you did in reference to the origins of the bible. I really like what you offered in terms of the importance given to documenting bishops by the Romans as opposed to secular rulers. Exasperating, I know. This guy is a particularly nasty foe. The only reason I’m going back and forth with him at all is because I know a few open minded protestants are following our exchanges. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It helps greatly!Wow. Just… wow.
Ignatius of Antioch’s existence is a lot better documented in writing than Julius Caesar’s.
Now, obviously when it comes to coins and public works that say “Julius built me,” you’d have the opposite situation. But most of Roman history and literature only survived in a few manuscripts, which Christians made a lot of copies of.
Other than recent finds of papyrus out in the desert in Egypt, there is no Greek or Latin pagan literature that survives any other way than through Christian copyists. So if your guy is looking for pagan testimony, why does he believe that if he doesn’t believe his fellow Christians?
And does he also believe that Venus is Caesar’s mommy and all the emperors became stars in the night sky, if some pagan said so?
Bishops, OTOH, were not building bridges or public baths with inscriptions on them, for the most part. (Later you do get churches that say which bishop built them, but that was after Christianity became legal.) Nor were they minting coins. There are some catacomb inscriptions, but those only apply to Roman bishops.
Furthermore, most pagan records of court transcripts of martyred Christians existed in Roman archives, but were only transcribed by Christians writing up martyrologies. We can’t walk down to the Forum today and look up the scrolls about the death of St. Justin Martyr, because the records were destroyed or sent to Byzantium a long time ago.
So basically, your inquirer obviously shouldn’t believe in any historical figures’ known deeds, although he can be allowed to believe in their names and pictures. This puts Roman history on the same footing as the history of the Scythians – ie, king lists and not much else.
He shouldn’t believe anything in the Bible, either, since it came down to us through Christian copyists hired by that evil, evil Church. What a terribly shaky tradition.
Pah. I’m too disgusted to give you a good argument. I’m pretty sure there’s a Catholic Answers tract along these lines, but I’m too disgusted to think of search terms.
You might want to find out exactly what church he belongs to, as any group in the Wesleyan or Calvinist traditions has a founder who leans heavily on patristics.
Also, the whole deal with Origen involved a lot of imperial stuff later on, so he’s definitely very well documented. We even have his pupil St. Gregory Thaumaturgus’ farewell speech, where he outlines Origen’s teaching techniques. Origen was also extremely prolific, so I’d like to ask your friend who wrote thousands of pages of Greek patristics in the exact same style if it wasn’t Origen, and who went to the trouble of excerpting thousands of pages into later anthologies, and why we are still finding stuff by the same guy in those papyri out in the trashpiles in the Egyptian desert!
I have an evangelical buddy who does a lot of patristics study, and I will ask him for ideas. He’s been on the Internet longer than me, so he’s probably heard this kind of stupidity before.
You’re right on target with that. He has pretty much dismissed any argument offhandedly that I’ve made in reference to other topics.
Nice! I hadn’t heard of those works, but I agree it seems awfully likely that’s where he’s getting his garbage. I’ll call him on that.
That’s the same thing I run into at another Christian Forum to which I belong. But I am a glutton for punishment and I keep pounding away. For instance, I have started posting things from the Catechism and not giving any indication that is where they are from. I know this is sneaky but I have been getting some agreements so far and it should be interesting when I reveal my source.
My personal favorite guy is Nero Caesar. The guy was the Emperor of the Roman Empire (the most powerful man on earth) for 14 years. He’s one of the few Caesars thought to have died a natural death. A lot of people think he was the flippin’ anti-Christ. How many of his own writings have survived? None. How many contemporary accounts about him have survived? None. Not one scrap. The earliest account about the Emperor Nero was written 50 years after his death, by a guy who was a very young boy when Nero died. The next two earliest accounts were written 100 years after his death.
This is just plain nonsense.
Here’s the footnote:
Oddly enough, another science fiction writer has also written up Peregrinus - the science fiction writer Avram Davidson wrote two volumes of a projected fantasy series based on both Lucian’s bio and what other authors said about him. (Peregrine Primus and Peregrine Secundus, if you’re interested.) His Virgil fantasies are better, but he does a good job portraying the weirder corners of early Christianity (with help from Tertullian, Epiphanius, and other sources).
Some people aren’t worth debating: it’s the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that is leading the charge to publish a new version of the Fragments of Origen’s Hexapla.