Early Church Fathers Agree: Peter has the Keys

[Randy_Carson]

I think you’re asking the wrong question. Do we Catholics hate Protestants because we refuse to share communion with them?

Orthodox ARE permitted to receive communion in a Catholic Church under some circumstances.

But let me put this another way: I don’t harbor anything against the Orthodox (other than the error of schism), but I believe their sacraments are valid. Therefore, I would have no problem receiving communion from an Orthodox priest. He is, after all, validly ordained.

Similarly, I would understand if an Orthodox received communion in a Catholic Church; he knows that it is really and truly Jesus present. Protestants, OTOH, do not.

Now, we might pause to consider the implications of receiving in the “other’s” church and the fact that we really aren’t in communion, etc.

However, I think the original question concerned what an EO would do if there was not a EO church within a thousand miles. At some point, it might make more sense to put aside ecclesiological differences and simply receive one’s Lord.

 

[RyanBlack]

This was my understanding. So, conceivably some Orthodox might feel comfortable receiving the Eucharist or confession from a Catholic priest in case of emergencies or other hardship while others would have nothing to do with anything Catholic.

Conceivably so. My experience on this Forum leads me to conclude that there are some Catholics who would have nothing to with anything Orthodox.

 

[RyanBlack]

Orthodox ARE permitted to receive communion in a Catholic Church under some circumstances.

I know that. My point still stands. For example, the Episcopal Church and the Methodist Church (among others) permit Catholics to receive communion. However, the Catholic Church does not permit them to receive communion. I’m sure you would disagree that Catholics hate Episcopalians and Methodists, whom we refuse to commune, even though they do not refuse. So why should we claim that the Orthodox hate us on the basis of their refusal to commune us, even though we admit them to communion.

 

[RyanBlack]

Protestants, OTOH, do not.

Some Protestants do, and we still don’t admit them to communion. Neither to we hate them.

Now, we might pause to consider the implications of receiving in the “other’s” church and the fact that we really aren’t in communion, etc.

However, I think the original question concerned what an EO would do if there was not a EO church within a thousand miles. At some point, it might make more sense to put aside ecclesiological differences and simply receive one’s Lord.

Even under pain of excommunication? Would you receive from and Orthodox priest if the Catholic Church were to excommunicate you for doing so?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know that. My point still stands. For example, the Episcopal Church and the Methodist Church (among others) permit Catholics to receive communion. However, the Catholic Church does not permit them to receive communion. I’m sure you would disagree that Catholics hate Episcopalians and Methodists, whom we refuse to commune, even though they do not refuse. So why should we claim that the Orthodox hate us on the basis of their refusal to commune us, even though we admit them to communion.

First, “hate” may be too strong a word; “resent” may be better.

I hope I did not give a false impression here. The fact that Orthodox don’t allow us to receive is not the reason I think they resent Catholicism. They apparently resent Catholics for many reasons that go way back in time - but seem like only yesterday to them.

You may recall a spirited discussion in another subforum last year involving an Orthodox priest. Like me, he is an American, a southerner, and a convert from the Methodist Church. There’s not a drop of Russian or Greek blood in him. Yet, he spoke of the crusades like his own mother had been piked by a Latin soldier in Constantinople. Sorry, I just don’t understand that kind of thinking.

 

[RyanBlack]

First, “hate” may be too strong a word; “resent” may be better.

I hope I did not give a false impression here. The fact that Orthodox don’t allow us to receive is not the reason I think they resent Catholicism. They apparently resent Catholics for many reasons that go way back in time - but seem like only yesterday to them.

You may recall a spirited discussion in another subforum last year involving an Orthodox priest. Like me, he is an American, a southerner, and a convert from the Methodist Church. There’s not a drop of Russian or Greek blood in him. Yet, he spoke of the crusades like his own mother had been piked by a Latin soldier in Constantinople. Sorry, I just don’t understand that kind of thinking.

Clearly there are some Orthodox who resent and even hate Catholics. I assure you that this is not the case with all Orthodox. I’ll offer several examples pointing to positive relations between Orthodox and Catholics.

I recall that when Pope St. John Paul II died, several Orthodox bishops offered condolences to Catholics. At least one Orthodox patriarch referred to him as “His All Holiness”; by doing so, he acknowledged the special role of the See of Rome, as this designation is historically the official style of address for the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Constantinople.

While I can’t comment about installations of Roman Catholic bishops, since I tend not to follow such things, I know that when Eastern Catholic bishops in the United States are enthroned, Eastern Orthodox bishops generally attend.

An Eastern Catholic priest I know well told me about a time he attended an Orthodox hierarchical Divine Liturgy. After Divine Liturgy, he was introduced to the Orthodox bishop who responded that he should have concelebrated (note to all: please don’t shower me with lectures about how this is not typical–I’m aware of that already).

When Bishop Nicholas, the Melkite Bishop of Newton, made a pastoral visit to the Melkite community here in Houston, there was Russian Orthodox priest who attended the banquet after Divine Liturgy. This priest was very warm in his interactions with the Catholics there, and is a personal friend of Bishop Nicholas.

Of course there are numerous anecdotes that could be offered that paint a different picture. I’m certainly aware that there is need for improvement. I offer the above examples as evidence that the reality of Catholic-Orthodox relations might not be quite so bleak as you have perceived them to be.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Clearly there are some Orthodox who resent and even hate Catholics. I assure you that this is not the case with all Orthodox. I’ll offer several examples pointing to positive relations between Orthodox and Catholics.

I recall that when Pope St. John Paul II died, several Orthodox bishops offered condolences to Catholics. At least one Orthodox patriarch referred to him as “His All Holiness”; by doing so, he acknowledged the special role of the See of Rome, as this designation is historically the official style of address for the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Constantinople.

While I can’t comment about installations of Roman Catholic bishops, since I tend not to follow such things, I know that when Eastern Catholic bishops in the United States are enthroned, Eastern Orthodox bishops generally attend.

An Eastern Catholic priest I know well told me about a time he attended an Orthodox hierarchical Divine Liturgy. After Divine Liturgy, he was introduced to the Orthodox bishop who responded that he should have concelebrated (note to all: please don’t shower me with lectures about how this is not typical–I’m aware of that already).

When Bishop Nicholas, the Melkite Bishop of Newton, made a pastoral visit to the Melkite community here in Houston, there was Russian Orthodox priest who attended the banquet after Divine Liturgy. This priest was very warm in his interactions with the Catholics there, and is a personal friend of Bishop Nicholas.

Of course there are numerous anecdotes that could be offered that paint a different picture. I’m certainly aware that there is need for improvement. I offer the above examples as evidence that the reality of Catholic-Orthodox relations might not be quite so bleak as you have perceived them to be.

I hope that these anecdotes become more and more common, don’t you?

 

[RyanBlack]

I hope that these anecdotes become more and more common, don’t you?

Of course.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I don’t think any Orthodox OR Catholic can be in any way justified for harboring any animosity or enmity towards a fellow Christian. That sort of thing is partly what got us here in the first place.

It’s one thing to disagree with another churches foundations and doctrines but quite another to direct bad feelings towards a person. Catholics and Orthodox have so much in common.

So, do Orthodox allow Catholics to partake in the Sacraments in certain situations or is that a complicated question that is dependent on a great number of things?

 

[eddie_too]

i have no doubt that the petrine office was consciously and intentionally established by Jesus.

at the same time, I am equally sure that the theological development of the meaning and nature of that office is not completed.

I believe the petrine office is similar in many ways to a sacrament but should not be called a sacrament because some of the graces that accompany the office are given only to the individual who holds the office and are not given to all Christians although they are all given for the benefit of all Christians.

I understand that there are graces from both the sacrament of orders and the sacrament of matrimony that are also not given to all Christians, but they are given to all Christians who intend to serve the Lord in a specific way.

these comments are intended to demonstrate the kinds of considerations that surround the theological development of the petrine office.

I think that the Great Schism provides evidence that the theological development of the petrine office is not completed.

for that matter, it is probably accurate to say that the theology of all RC doctrines remain subject to further development.

 

[RyanBlack]

I don’t think any Orthodox OR Catholic can be in any way justified for harboring any animosity or enmity towards a fellow Christian. That sort of thing is partly what got us here in the first place.

It’s one thing to disagree with another churches foundations and doctrines but quite another to direct bad feelings towards a person. Catholics and Orthodox have so much in common.

So, do Orthodox allow Catholics to partake in the Sacraments in certain situations or is that a complicated question that is dependent on a great number of things?

As a general rule, the Orthodox do not permit Catholics to receive the sacraments from them. There are exceptions; for example, in some parts of the world where Christians are marginalized, there are frequent instances of intercommunion, or so I’ve been told. But again, as a general rule, only the Orthodox are permitted to receive the sacraments in the Orthodox Church.

 

[prodromos]

So, even though a valid Eucharist was available to you, you’d rather not obey the Lord’s command to “do this” due to it being a “Catholic” mass?

I only know with certainty that the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour can be received in the Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. The canons of the Church also forbid Orthodox Christians from receiving communion in heterodox Churches which I am sure you already know. I have my spiritual father’s blessing to receive Holy Communion every fortnight. If my circumstances changed such that I could only get to an Orthodox Church once a year then I would receive once a year. St Mary of Egypt went over 40 years in the desert after receiving Holy Communion and only received again shortly before she died, so it is not the frequency of receiving which is important but how fervently we hold on to the Grace we obtain when we do receive.

 

[prodromos]

Similarly, I would understand if an Orthodox received communion in a Catholic Church; he knows that it is really and truly Jesus present.

Actually, I know no such thing.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Unless I am mistaken, the Orthodox believe themselves to be the only true and orthodox real Catholics while the Catholic Church led by the Bishop of Rome is believed to be in error according to the Orthodox perspective. Is this not the case?

 

[prodromos]

Unless I am mistaken, the Orthodox believe themselves to be the only true and orthodox real Catholics while the Catholic Church led by Bishop of Rome is believed to be in error according to the Orthodox perspective. Is this not the case?

Yes.

 

[RyanBlack]

Actually, I know no such thing.

I took what Randy wrote to mean that the Orthodox, as opposed to most Protestants, know the Eucharist to be truly the body and blood of Christ, not necessarily that all Orthodox agree that Catholics have a valid Eucharist.

 

[Cavaradossi]

First, “hate” may be too strong a word; “resent” may be better.

I hope I did not give a false impression here. The fact that Orthodox don’t allow us to receive is not the reason I think they resent Catholicism. They apparently resent Catholics for many reasons that go way back in time - but seem like only yesterday to them.

You may recall a spirited discussion in another subforum last year involving an Orthodox priest. Like me, he is an American, a southerner, and a convert from the Methodist Church. There’s not a drop of Russian or Greek blood in him. Yet, he spoke of the crusades like his own mother had been piked by a Latin soldier in Constantinople. Sorry, I just don’t understand that kind of thinking.

Considering that the Great Schism was essentially caused by the crusades, they do remain relevant when discussing, even in a scholarly context, the history of the Great Schism.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Considering that the Great Schism was essentially caused by the crusades, they do remain relevant when discussing, even in a scholarly context, the history of the Great Schism.

I think John Paul II officially apologized for atrocities against the Eastern Churches. Didn’t he also give back a precious Holy Icon that belonged to the Orthodox?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I took what Randy wrote to mean that the Orthodox, as opposed to most Protestants, know the Eucharist to be truly the body and blood of Christ, not necessarily that all Orthodox agree that Catholics have a valid Eucharist.

Thanks.

 

[KnitNut]

I took what Randy wrote to mean that the Orthodox, as opposed to most Protestants, know the Eucharist to be truly the body and blood of Christ, not necessarily that all Orthodox agree that Catholics have a valid Eucharist.

Ryan, I think it stemmed originally from Randy’s question to me specifically:

One question: While we are not in full communion, do you recognize our sacraments as valid?

To Randy, I gently but firmly suggest that there is no such thing as “partial” communion…one’s hierarchy is either commemorated in the diptychs or not (and I know I’ve seen this discussed before…maybe even on one of your TEN or more threads circulating on page 1 of the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum, concerning Orthodoxy). Our churches are not in communion. What happens outside of Orthodoxy, I know not. And my plate is full enough, working out my own salvation within what I do know to be Truth.