Early Church Fathers and Sola Scriptura

[Algo1]

This is your error.

Is Sacred Tradition only the Word of God? What of the word of Jesus? Jesus was with the Apostles for 40 days after His resurrection. What did He tell them? What did He teach them? How did Jesus ‘set up’ His Church? Or did Jesus just hang around and eat a little fish?

The Church cannot change the errors in your reasoning. You must do that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Can you tell us anything that Jesus told the Apostles in that 40 days that has not been traditioned (handed down} to us in the Holy Scriptures?

 

[Algo1]

Parker,
I would like to contribute, but I can’t find a succinct definition of how you define “Sola Scriptura”. I don’t want to claim that I agree with you until I am more informed of what you believe regarding this important topic.

 

[Eric_Peter]

**Ambrose, Commentary of Psalm 118,19 **
“Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth.”

**Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 **
"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures…Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them and the table of your heart.

Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667
"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth] ’ (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God.

 

[Eric_Peter]

Real Presence in Eucharist
Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 9:50
“Perhaps you will say, ‘I see something else, how is it that you assert that I receive the Body of Christ?’ And this is the point which remains for us to prove. And what evidence shall we make use of? Let us prove that this is not what nature made, but what the blessing consecrated, and the power of blessing is greater than that of nature, because by blessing nature itself is changed…The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: ‘This is My Body.’ Before the blessing of the heavenly words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body is signified. He Himself speaks of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood. And you say, Amen, that is, It is true. Let the heart within confess what the mouth utters, let the soul feel what the voice speaks.”

On the Christian Faith, 4, 10:125
"Then He added: ‘For My Flesh is meat indeed, and My Blood is drink [indeed].’ Thou hearest Him speak of His Flesh and of His Blood, thou perceivest the sacred pledges, [conveying to us the merits and power] of the Lord’s death, and thou dishonourest His Godhead. Hear His own words: ‘A spirit hath not flesh and bones.’ Now we, as often as we receive the Sacramental Elements, which by the mysterious efficacy of holy prayer are transformed into the Flesh and the Blood, “do show the Lord’s Death.’”

Marian doctrines
Origen, Homily 1
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”

Ambrose
Sermon 22:30 [Immaculate Conception]
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”

To Christians at Vercellae, Letter 63:111 [follow Mary’s example]
“Imitate her, holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children, nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son.”

**On Virginity, 2:15 ** [Ambrose calling Mary Mother of God]
“The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue.”

On Virginity II:6,18
“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected… Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin’s body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest.”

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 10:19
“Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God [Theotokos] bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness”

 

[SyCarl]

"Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. **For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit **(The Sayings of the Lord [between A.D. 115 and 140] as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).-Papias

Are we to believe then that there will be a literal millennial kingdom on earth? This is one of the things Papias says was passed on to him by tradition.

Amongst these he says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth.

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.vii.ii.vi.html

*Here, Ireneaus says that only the teaching of the church is in harmony with scripture. See, Gnostic heretics were using SOLA SCRIPTURA to promote their heresy. Ireneaus and the other bishops stood up against there maligned interpretation of the scirptures WITH the traditions of the church. In short, both are held CO-EQUAL, and both of them are neccesary for true doctrine.

If this is what Irenaeus believed why did he write the following?

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.”

(Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 2, Paragraph 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iii.html

It was the Gnostics who claimed to have oral tradition from the apostles not recorded in Scripture. Here Irenaeus ridicules this claim.

“So then brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours” (2 Thessalonians 2:15). Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther "-John Chrysostom

Chrysostom also taught that all the necessary things were plainly set out in Scripture.

What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain.

(Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)
newadvent.org/fathers/23053.htm

 

[Algo1]

**Ambrose, Commentary of Psalm 118,19 **
“Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth.”

**Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 **
"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures…Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them and the table of your heart.

A little context goes a long way:

Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386): But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines. . . . For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith. And just as the mustard seed in one small grain contains many branches, so also this Faith has embraced in few words all the knowledge of godliness in the Old and New Testaments. Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them on the table of your heart
NPNF2: Vol. VII, Cyril of Jerusalem’s Catechetical Lectures, Lecture V:12.

Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667
"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth] ’ (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God.

 

[Algo1]

Are we to believe then that there will be a literal millennial kingdom on earth? This is one of the things Papias says was passed on to him by tradition.

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.vii.ii.vi.html

If this is what Irenaeus believed why did he write the following?

(Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 2, Paragraph 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iii.html

It was the Gnostics who claimed to have oral tradition from the apostles not recorded in Scripture. Here Irenaeus ridicules this claim.

Chrysostom also taught that all the necessary things were plainly set out in Scripture.

(Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)
newadvent.org/fathers/23053.htm

Indeed, as well as :

Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466)
Commenting on 2 Thess. 2:15:
Keep as the norm of doctrine the words offered you by us, which we preached to you when present and wrote when absent.
Robert Charles Hill, Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 130.

Greek text:
Ἔχετε κανόνα διδασκαλίας τοὺς παρʼ ἡμῶν ἡμῖν προσενεχθέντας λόγους, οὕς καὶ παρόντες ἡμῖν ἐκηρύξαμεν, καὶ ἀπόντες ἐγράψαμεν. Interpretatio Epistolae ΙI ad Thessalonicenses, Caput II, v. 15, PG 82:668-669.

 

[SyCarl]

2 thess. 2:15 alone proves you wrong there.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 proves nothing with respect to extra-biblical tradition. Looking at it in context, it is part of one of Paul’s two short letters to the church in Thessalonica. Nobody claims that those two letters contain everything that was taught by Paul to the Thessalonians. He obviously taught them orally as well. However he says nothing indicating that there was anything he taught orally that was not recorded, or would not be recorded, elsewhere in Scripture.

WRONG - and I’ll give you a couple of examples:
Infant Baptism is Sacred Tradition - and one held by the church Fathers. This is NOWHERE taught explicitly in Scripture.

Sola Scriptura does not require that everything be explicitly set out in Scripture. It does say that doctrine “by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture” (Westminster Confession of Faith)

Mary’s perpetual virginity is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture but is a dogmatic teaching of the Church.

This is not a particularly good example as most proponents of Sola Scriptura, even if they believed this, would not assert that it was a necessary belief.

 

[SyCarl]

Let’s look a little closer at one church father.
A problem that arises is reading the present meaning of Tradition anachronistically into the early church fathers.

Irenaeus certainly refers to tradition and faith received from the Apostles. He also tells us what this tradition is.

The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.
As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it.

(Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10, Paragraphs 1-2)
This is what Irenaeus gives as the tradition received by the Church from the Apostles. It contains nothing that is not clearly found in Scripture. This is not unexpected because he also tells us how the oral Apostolic teaching and Scripture are related.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge,” as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God.

(Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 1. Paragraph 1.)
Irenaeus indicates that the Apostles originally preached the Gospel orally. However it was God’s will that this same teaching be handed done by means of the written Scripture. To him the Apostles’ oral teaching and the Scripture are the same thing. As such he writes to seek the proof of the truth in Scripture.

Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him.

(Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 5, Paragraph 1)

(to be continued)

 

[SyCarl]

(continued)

Is there any other way to prove the truths found in Scripture? Not according to Irenaeus.

But that all his Epistles are consonant to these declarations, I shall, when expounding the apostle, show from the Epistles themselves, in the right place. But while I bring out by these proofs the truths of Scripture, and set forth briefly and compendiously things which are stated in various ways, do thou also attend to them with patience, and not deem them prolix; taking this into account, that proofs [of the things which are] contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves.

(Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 12, Paragraph 9)

What about knowledge that is not recorded in Scripture? Irenaeus tells us that this must be left with God.

If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit; but we, inasmuch as we are inferior to, and later in existence than, the Word of God and His Spirit, are on that very account destitute of the knowledge of His mysteries. And there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly, and such as require to be made known to us by revelation, since many even of those things which lie at our very feet (I mean such as belong to this world, which we handle, and see, and are in close contact with) transcend our knowledge, so that even these we must leave to God.

(Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 28, Paragraphs 1-2)

What about the need of tradition to interpret Scripture or the oral transmission of truths not found in Scripture? Irenaeus derides those who suggest that the truth was delivered orally and not by writing.

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.”

(Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 2, Paragraph 1)
What then about the perspicuity of Scripture? Irenaeus writes that the entire Scriptures can clearly be understood by all by means of daily study.

A sound mind, and one which does not expose its possessor to danger, and is devoted to piety and the love of truth, will eagerly meditate upon those things which God has placed within the power of mankind, and has subjected to our knowledge, and will make advancement in [acquaintance with] them, rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study. These things are such as fall [plainly] under our observation, and are clearly and unambiguously in express terms set forth in the Sacred Scriptures.Since, therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all, although all do not believe them; and since they proclaim that one only God, to the exclusion of all others, formed all things by His word, whether visible or invisible, heavenly or earthly, in the water or under the earth, as I have shown from the very words of Scripture; and since the very system of creation to which we belong testifies, by what falls under our notice, that one Being made and governs it,those persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration, and will not behold the light of the announcement [made to them]; but they put fetters upon themselves, and every one of them imagines, by means of their obscure interpretations of the parables, that he has found out a God of his own.

(Against Heresies Book 2, Chapter 27, Paragraphs 1 & 2)

So all the Apostolic teaching is clearly set out in Scripture in a way that all can understand them without the need of oral tradition and what is not set out in Scripture we should not inquire about. This sounds very much like Sola Scriptura.

 

[SyCarl]

This is an outright lie.
In post #25, I provided you with quotes from Augustine, Jerome, Athanasius and Tertullian which say the exact opposite of what you’re claiming.
(Edited)

It is fairly easy to find quotes from the early church fathers. None of the quotes you give really shows any doctrinal oral tradition separate from Scripture. Examples of non-scriptural tradition they refer to generally refers to ecclesiastical practices and other unnecessary matters.

Here are some quotes as well.

Hippolytus

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practise piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us took; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them.

(Against Noetus, Paragraph 9)
newadvent.org/fathers/0521.htm

**Cyril of Jerusalem **

But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines. This summary I wish you both to commit to memory when I recite it, and to rehearse it with all diligence among yourselves, not writing it out on paper, but engraving it by the memory upon your heart, taking care while you rehearse it that no Catechumen chance to overhear the things which have been delivered to you. I wish you also to keep this as a provision through the whole course of your life, and beside this to receive no other, neither if we ourselves should change and contradict our present teaching, nor if an adverse angel, transformed into an angel of light should wish to lead you astray. For though we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that you have received, let him be to you anathema. So for the present listen while I simply say the Creed, and commit it to memory; but at the proper season expect the confirmation out of Holy Scripture of each part of the contents. For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith. And just as the mustard seed in one small grain contains many branches, so also this Faith has embraced in few words all the knowledge of godliness in the Old and New Testaments. Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which you now receive, and write them an the table of your heart.

(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 5, Paragraph 12)
newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm

Notice he refers to tradition and learning from the church but also indicates that those teachings and traditions are taken from Scripture with no indication of a separate oral tradition in addition to Scripture.

. Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures.** For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures**; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

(Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 4, Paragraph 17)
newadvent.org/fathers/310104.htm

(to be continued)

 

[onenow1]

Jesus did not give a book authority !He gave the Apostles this privilage ! It’s really that simple.

Peace

 

[WFS5801]

Readers,

While I believe there may be some legitimacy to honor the authority of oral tradition i.e., in the sense of scriptural teaching, I do not find either in Scriptures or the Early Church Fathers that this supersedes the authority of the Scriptures. As I continue to read these doctrines put forth by the fathers, I am going to share a couple of interesting quotes suggest even they submitted to the authority of the scriptures, and not the church. In other words, whatever teaching the church proclaims her beliefs must be derived from the Scriptures.

I’m sorry, but you’re “cherry-picking.” Or rather, I’m guessing, your sources cherry-picked. For example, take your second St. Cyril quote…

“For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith.”
-Cyril of Jerusalem (Lecture 5, point 12)

How Lecture 5, point 12 starts…

1. But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures.

The Church existed before the New Testament Scriptures. How could the Church have existed sola scriptura if the Scripture did not exist?

When St. Ambrose writes about the Scriptures (your first quote), he’s not contrasting the Tradition of the Church (handed down by Christ) against the Scriptures, he’s contrasting the Scriptures with the doctrines of the Arians. An important distinction.

Although I do think many will disagree on these key issues, I am hoping there will be some counter evidences presented to support the negative (i.e., the ECF’s never adhered to the authority of the Scripture or believed Scriptures were insufficient like the proponents of Sola Scriptura believe). Again, if this is not what the ECF’s assert, then provide some alternative.

St. Irenaeus writes about Tradition and Scripture…

1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world. 1 Corinthians 2:6
   …
2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth… therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

Against Heresies (St. Irenaeus) Book III, Chapter 2

So we see that, in the time of St. Irenaeus (born between 115 to 125 A.D.), the writer is already mentioning the authority of both Tradition (handed down from the Apostles) and Scripture.

In Chapter 4 of the same book, St. Iranaeus wrote the following…

1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. Revelation 22:17 For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

Again Tradition and Scripture. They both have the same source, and the Church has preserved the oral teachings of the Apostles (handed down). No Apostle claimed to be writing all that was necessary to be believed in their writings. Nor did they claim to write an organized book of doctrine. They dealt with specific issues in specific churches at the time. Again, if their authority resulted in their written letters being canonized as Scripture, why would not the teachings of these same Apostles that were handed down through the Church also hold the same authority? After all, it was the Church, which has always held that the Traditions handed down by the Apostles as authoritive, that also canonized the writings of the Apostles. So how do you separate one from the other?

(Continued)

 

[WFS5801]

(Continuation)

St. Gregory of Nyssa (A.D. 335-394) wrote the following in his work Against Eunomius in Book IV, Chapter 6…

And let no one interrupt me, by saying that what we confess should also be confirmed by constructive reasoning: for it is enough for proof of our statement, that the tradition has come down to us from our fathers, handed on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them.

He countered heretics using the authority of Tradition, that oral tradition handed down by the Apostles.

His brother, St. Basil the Great (A.D. 329-379) makes the point even more clearly in Holy Spirit 27:66…

1. Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us in a mystery by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force.

You see that St. Basil makes it clear that Traditions (the teachings handed down by the Apostles) are on par with their writings (later canonized as Scripture by the authority of the Church). Again, the same source, the same authority.

 

[Algo1]

How about Irenaeus on:
The Self-Interpreting Nature of Scripture

Irenaeus (130-c. 200)

For by the fact that they thus endeavour to explain ambiguous passages of Scripture (ambiguous, however, not as if referring to another god, but as regards the dispensations of [the true] God), they have constructed another god, weaving, as I said before, ropes of sand, and affixing a more important to a less important question. For no question can be solved by means of another which itself awaits solution; nor, in the opinion of those possessed of sense, can an ambiguity be explained by means of another ambiguity, or enigmas by means of another greater enigma, but things of such character receive their solution from those which are manifest, and consistent and clear.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Chapter X.—Perverse interpretations of Scripture…)

Irenaeus (130-c. 200)
If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances [of Scripture] there shall be heard one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things. If, for instance, any one asks, “What was God doing before He made the world?” we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect by God, receiving a beginning in time, the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper3219 for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one’s imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things.
ANF: Vol I Against Heresies, 2.28.3

 

[SyCarl]

(continued)

Augustine

For though the Lord Jesus did many such acts, yet all of them are not recorded; just as this same St. John the evangelist himself testifies, that Christ the Lord both said and did many things that are not recorded; but such were chosen for record as seemed to suffice for the salvation of believers.

(Tractates on John, Tractate 49, Paragraph 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.l.html

Note what was recorded was sufficient for salvation.

RECEIVE, my children, the Rule of Faith, which is called the Symbol (or Creed). And when ye have received it, write it in your heart, and be daily saying it to yourselves; before ye sleep, before ye go forth, arm you with your Creed. The Creed no man writes so as it may be able to be read: but for rehearsal of it, lest haply forgetfulness obliterate what care hath delivered, let your memory be your record-roll: what ye are about to hear, that are ye to believe; and what ye shall have believed, that are about to give back with your tongue. For the Apostle says, “With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” For this is the Creed which ye are to rehearse and to repeat in answer. These words which ye have heard are in the Divine Scriptures scattered up and down: but thence gathered and reduced into one, that the memory of slow persons might not be distressed; that every person may be able to say, able to hold, what he believes.

(On the Creed, Section 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.vii.i.html

The creed is given as a summary but is found in Scripture. No reference to a separate oral tradition. Elsewhere he indicates that things not found in Scripture are not necessary for belief.

And if any comparisons shall have been made for thee, if thou hast found them in the Scriptures, believe: if thou shalt not have found them spoken of except by report, do not very much believe them. The thing itself perchance is so, perchance is not so. Do thou profit by it, let that comparison avail for thy salvation.

(Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXVII)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXVII.html

and

But if it is supported by the evident authority of the divine Scriptures, namely, of those which in the Church are called canonical, it must be believed without any reservation. In regard to other witnesses of evidence which are offered as guarantees of belief, you may believe or not, according as you estimate that they either have or have not the weight necessary to produce belief.(Fathers of the Church, Volume 20, Saint Augustine Letters, 147)

In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. **For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. **After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

(On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9, Paragraph 14)
newadvent.org/fathers/12022.htm

He indicates that al the necessary things are in Scripture. He also indicates that they are plainly set out in Scripture indicating formal as well as material sufficiency. Note he also says to use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

 

[SyCarl]

John Chrysostom

Now these things we say superficially, as to men not knowing the Scriptures. But our discourses would be unnecessary if you would believe and take heed to the divine word, for that would teach you all things.

Homilies on 1 Timothy, Homily 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.v.iii.ii.html

Oral teaching would not be necessary if you read Scripture.

What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? **All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain. **

(Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)
newadvent.org/fathers/23053.htm

Note again the perspicuity of the necessary things.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking. This is said of what he was discoursing of; about which he said, “From a child you have known the holy Scriptures.” All such, then, “is given by inspiration of God”; therefore, he means, do not doubt; and it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

“For doctrine.” For thence we shall know, whether we ought to learn or to be ignorant of anything. And thence we may disprove what is false, thence we may be corrected and brought to a right mind, may be comforted and consoled, and if anything is deficient, we may have it added to us.

“That the man of God may be perfect.” For this is the exhortation of the Scripture given, that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it; without this therefore he cannot be perfect. You have the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If you would learn anything, you may learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!

“Thoroughly furnished unto all good works”; not merely taking part in them, he means, but “thoroughly furnished.”

(Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm

Note we have the Scriptures in place of the Apostle. If we would learn anything, we can learn it from the Scriptures. He also makes it clear that it applies to all, not just Timothy.

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer this to figures and calculation; but in calculating upon facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though** we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; **and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things; which may we all obtain, through the grace and love towards men of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom, to the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory, might, and honor, now and ever, and world without end. Amen.

(Homilies on 2 Corinthians, Homily 13)
newadvent.org/fathers/220213.htm

Tertullian

He, therefore, will not be a Christian who shall deny this doctrine which is confessed by Christians; denying it, moreover, on grounds which are adopted by a man who is not a Christian. Take away, indeed, from the heretics the wisdom which they share with the heathen, and let them support their inquiries from the Scriptures alone: they will then be unable to keep their ground.

(On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 3
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.viii.iii.html

And to such a degree has the Holy Ghost made this the rule of His Scripture, that whenever anything is made out of anything, He mentions both the thing that is made and the thing of which it is made… Therefore, just as He shows us the original out of which He drew such things as were derived from a given source, so also with regard to those things of which He does not point out whence He produced them, He confirms (by that silence our assertion) that they were produced out of nothing. “In the beginning,” then, “God made the heaven and the earth.” I revere the fulness of His Scripture, in which He manifests to me both the Creator and the creation. In the gospel, moreover, I discover a Minister and Witness of the Creator, even His Word. But whether all things were made out of any underlying Matter, I have as yet failed anywhere to find. Where such a statement is written, Hermogenes’ shop must tell us. If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add to or take away from the written word.

(Against Hermogenes, Chapter 22)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.v.xxii.html

 

[Algo1]

I’m sorry, but you’re “cherry-picking.” Or rather, I’m guessing, your sources cherry-picked. For example, take your second St. Cyril quote…

How Lecture 5, point 12 starts…

The Church existed before the New Testament Scriptures. How could the Church have existed sola scriptura if the Scripture did not exist?

Scripture Precedes The Church

It is often the contention of Roman Catholic apologists that the Church should be believed because she predates the Scriptures and is the ‘principle of causality’ behind the Scriptures. But as noted earlier, God is the primary author or originator of sacred Scripture, and as such, he himself, not the Church, is the ‘principle of causality’ behind it. The Apostle Peter states that Scripture originated, not with the Church, but that’holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit’ (2 Pet. 1:20-21). It is nonsense to say that the Church has authority because she is the more ancient. God’s word is eternal. The truth revealed through Christ and the apostles is the same truth revealed in the Old Testament.
David T. King Vol I Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith p. 130ff

Gregory the Great (Gregory I c. 540-603): He himself wrote who dictated these things to be written; he himself wrote who was also the inspirer of the work. ìPrefaceî to the First Part, Morals on the Book of Job, For translation, see Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, trans. George Musgrave Giger, ed. James T. Dennison, Jr., Vol. 3 (Phillipsburg: P&R Publishing, 1992), 2.III.ii, p. 60.

Latin text: Ipse igitur haec scripsit, qui scribenda dictavit. Ipse scripsit, qui et in illius opere inspirator exstitit, et per scribentis vocem imitanda ad nos ejus facta transmisit. Moralium Libri, Sive Expositio In Librum B. Job, Liber Decimus Septimus, Caput Primum, PL 75:517.

Gregory the Great (Gregory I c. 540-603): But who was the writer, it is very superfluous to enquire; since at any rate the Holy Spirit is confidently believed to have been the author. He then Himself wrote them, Who dictated the things that should be written. He did Himself write them Who both was present as the Inspirer in that Saintís work, and by the mouth of the writer has consigned to us his acts as patterns for our imitation. Morals on the Book of Job by S. Gregory the Great: A Library of Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, Vol. 1, Parts 1 & 2 (Oxford: John Henry Parker, 1844), Preface, ß2, p. 15.

Latin text: Sed quis haec scripserit, valde supervacue quaeritur, cum tamen auctor libri Spiritus sanctus fideliter credatur. Ipse igitur haec scripsit, qui scribenda dictavit. Ipse scripsit, qui et in illius opere inspirator exstitit, et per scribentis vocem imitanda ad nos ejus facta transmisit. Moralium Libri, Sive Expositio In Librum B. Job, Liber Decimus Septimus, Caput Primum, ß2, PL 75:517.

Gregory the Great (Gregory I c. 540-603): As servants that serve well are ever intent upon their mastersí countenances, that the things they may bid they may hear readily, and strive to fulfill; so the minds of the righteous in their bent are upon Almighty God, and in His Scripture they as it were fix their eyes on His face, that whereas God delivers therein all that He wills, they may not be at variance with His will, in proportion as they learn that will in revelation. Whence it happens, that His words do not pass superfluously through their ears, but that these words they fix in their hearts. Morals on the Book of Job by S. Gregory the Great: A Library of Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, Vol. 2, Parts 3 & 4 (Oxford: John Henry Parker, 1844), Book XVI, Chapter 35, p. 252.

When St. Ambrose writes about the Scriptures (your first quote), he’s not contrasting the Tradition of the Church (handed down by Christ) against the Scriptures, he’s contrasting the Scriptures with the doctrines of the Arians. An important distinction.

St. Irenaeus writes about Tradition and Scripture…

So we see that, in the time of St. Irenaeus (born between 115 to 125 A.D.), the writer is already mentioning the authority of both Tradition (handed down from the Apostles) and Scripture.

In Chapter 4 of the same book, St. Iranaeus wrote the following…

Again Tradition and Scripture. They both have the same source, and the Church has preserved the oral teachings of the Apostles (handed down). No Apostle claimed to be writing all that was necessary to be believed in their writings. Nor did they claim to write an organized book of doctrine. They dealt with specific issues in specific churches at the time. Again, if their authority resulted in their written letters being canonized as Scripture, why would not the teachings of these same Apostles that were handed down through the Church also hold the same authority? After all, it was the Church, which has always held that the Traditions handed down by the Apostles as authoritive, that also canonized the writings of the Apostles. So how do you separate one from the other?

(Continued)

 

[SyCarl]

Athanasius

For although the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth,—while there are other works of our blessed teachers compiled for this purpose, if he meet with which a man will gain some knowledge of the interpretation of the Scriptures, and be able to learn what he wishes to know,—still, as we have not at present in our hands the compositions of our teachers, we must communicate in writing to you what we learned from them,—the faith, namely, of Christ the Saviour; lest any should hold cheap the doctrine taught among us, or think faith. in Christ unreasonable.

(Against the Heathen, Part 1, Chapter 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.vi.ii.i.i.html

These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, ‘Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures.’ And He reproved the Jews, saying, ‘Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me

(Festal Letters, Number 39)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xxv.iii.iii.xxv.html?highlight=fountains%20of%20salvation#highlight

Basil the Great

Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favour of that side will be cast the vote of truth

(Letter 189)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.ix.cxc.html

Ambrose

For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?

(On the Duties of the Clergy, Book 1, Chapter 23)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf210.iv.i.ii.xxiii.html

Wouldst thou know what is the nature of the Word—hear the Scriptures. “For the Word of God is living and mighty, yea, working effectually, sharp and keener than any the sharpest sword, piercing even to the sundering of soul and spirit, of limbs and marrow.

(Exposition of the Christian Faith, Book 4, Chapter 7)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf210.iv.iv.vi.vii.html

Basil the Great

Your dream, I think, reveals more perfectly the necessity of making provision for spiritual contemplation, and cultivating that mental vision by which God is wont to be seen. Enjoying as you do the consolation of the Holy Scriptures, you stand in need neither of my assistance nor of that of anybody else to help you to comprehend your duty. You have the all-sufficient counsel and guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you to what is right.

(Letters, Number 283)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.ix.cclxxxiv.html

 

[elvisman]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 proves nothing with respect to extra-biblical tradition. Looking at it in context, it is part of one of Paul’s two short letters to the church in Thessalonica. Nobody claims that those two letters contain everything that was taught by Paul to the Thessalonians. He obviously taught them orally as well. However he says nothing indicating that there was anything he taught orally that was not recorded, or would not be recorded, elsewhere in Scripture.

And there is NOTHING that says everything he taught WAS written. He simply told the thessolonians to hold fast to the traditions - ORAL OR WRITTEN.

Sola Scriptura does not require that everything be explicitly set out in Scripture. It does say that doctrine “by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture” (Westminster Confession of Faith)

This is not a particularly good example as most proponents of Sola Scriptura, even if they believed this, would not assert that it was a necessary belief.

Then let’s go back to Baptism which IS a “necessary” belief because Jesus COMMANDED it at in the Great commission the end of Matthew’s Gospel.

Although the Catholic Church says that it can be inferred from Scripture - Protestant scholars insist that Infant Baptism is NOT mentioned anywhere in the New Testament.
This practice is based heavily on the ORAL tradition of the Fathers.