Early Church Fathers and Sola Scriptura

  • Thread starter Thread starter haparker321
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
“some legitimacy”? Oral Tradition, properly defined, is legitimate or there would be no Bible.
No Old Testament either? Gasp! :eek:
The authority of Scriptures is a Tradition of the Church. All you have proven is your own reformist definition of Tradition, which is not the one we have been using for 2000 years.
Your definition of ‘tradition’ has no basis in scripture i.e., tradition being the doctrines the NT writers forgot to mention in Scripture’. Where is it in scripture? Answer: NO WHERE.
Using quotes of the ECF’s to disprove the Catholic Church is an excercise in futility.
It only proves how the church has undergone a transformation to apostasy
The Church is the servant of the scriptures.
No disagreement here.
The Church has always used scriptures as a primary source for doctrine, but not the only source.
Source of the problem identified.
There is nothing in the Bible that says only doctrines found explicitly in scripture can be used.
But we can make conclusions based on its implications.
Your belief that everything must be explicity found in scripture in order to be trustworthy, is a self destructing doctrine, and a tradition of men.
No, no, no, no. It needs to have either an explicit or implicit declaration. I think you misunderstood SS.

Parker
 
I’ve been working steadily on my book for a while and spending time setting up a blog to share with fellow people and entertaining a forum is not all that easy. Sure, it’s got some information about myself but it’s all in aims of getting my name out there and answering some questions.I could say the same thing for Catholics who endlessly cite spurious Scripture passages in an attempt to ‘prove’ the truth. The sad part is that most of these verses used are taken to support the logical leaps of Catholic Doctrine.

Parker
But we can make conclusions based on its implications.
I will repeat the challenge I issued you in Post #130:

“Sola Scriptura is not implied by the Bible (assuming that you are equating the Bible with ‘Word of God’). I challenge you to prove me wrong. In the interest of time, you can simply put forth what you consider to be your strongest biblical argument in favor of Sola Scriptura. If it fails to “pass muster” then we can examine the others, one at a time.”

So I am interested in seeing which Bible verse you believe imply Sola Scriptura.

And seeing as you just launched a criticism against Catholics for citing “spurious Scripture passages in an attempt to ‘prove’ the truth” I am certainly curious to see the quality of your own Scripture citing.
 
Code:
So does this mean that you view God's revelation in Scripture as materially sufficient as several other posters on this thread do?
Yes. This is the Teaching of the Apostles.
Code:
Is papal infallibility something Paul taught to the Corinthians and Thessalonians?  Is Mary's bodily assumption something he taught them?
I think it is very possible that Mary was still alive at the time. Paul taught the Catholic Gospel, which means he received the promise of Christ that He would lead the Church into “all Truth”, not leave her orphaned, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. He taught that the Apostles authority came from God, and that this authority is universal. In all things he was in harmony with Peter.

He taught in Greek, primarily, and the word “papal” may well have been unknown to him. 😃
Code:
Do you think that Papal infallibility and the bodily assumption are just new names ("terms") for a set of previously held views, as with the Trinity?
Yes.
Code:
Can you show us where Scripture says that the bishop of Rome is infallible?
Yes, it is right there next to the definition of the word “Trinity”. 😉

Seriously, this is how we understand the Scriptures referring to Jesus’ promises above. If Jesus is leading the Church into “all Truth”, then how can the Church be fallible?
Can you show us where any of the fathers from the first 4 centuries said that?
There are many references to the One Faith, and the primacy of the successor of Peter who guards it. I accept that you do not read them this way.
Not places where they said complimentary things about Rome, or about her bishops, but where they actually said something that means the bishop of Rome is infallible.
Algo, I challenge you to “go East” and try to convince the Orthodox that the Church is not protected by the gift of infalliblity by God. This is not some “Roman” invention.
 
Oh, so St. Augustine counts as another source of the written Word of God?
Insomuch as his writings contain the word of God, of course. All the early fathers quote the inspired Word of God. Is it less God’s Word in their writings? But Augustine never claimed to be writing scripture. I am talking about the 400+ works floating around in AD 382 CLAIMING to be scripture. The Church searched all the documents, and chose 27 as inspired.
The epistles mentioned it.
Sources, please.
Code:
I'm saying the church should prove (from Scriptures & ECF), that tradition is what the church defines it as.
Oh. So, you are changing what you want, now?

Sacred Tradition, like all the other Revelation of God, stands above and outside of modern science. Proofs are in the realm of human reasoning only. I doubt there is any way to scientifically prove that the authors of the NT are who we say they are. That is why it is called an article of faith.
Code:
Key word, public. When does private revelation count as an additional source?
Private revelation, like historical references, help us to situate the Teachings of the Apostles in the milieu in which they are produced. We see the threads of Sacred Tradition through the ECF’s and in private revelation. These are accepted by the Church because they **reflect **the faith of the Church. They are not the Source. Jesus is the Source.
Certainly not the pharisees.
Answer the question, Parker. How did the Word of God get preserved from Adam to Moses?
Prove it.

Parker
Parker, how would it be possible for me to “prove” that you are ignoring part of the Scripture? You are reading it yourself! You have the choice to jettison part of it if you so desire. That is between you and God.

I am just observing that from where I am sitting, it appears you are unable to reconcile the Scriptures with your theology. It is your privilege to construct a theology that is Scripturally inconsistent. People do it every day.😦
 
You mean ‘four rules for biblical dictatorial interpretation for Catholics’, right?
Dear brother, try to curb your hostility, ok? You don’t have to agree with us, but if you want to post here, you need to respect our faith.

No, there is no “dictatorial” aspect to reading the Scriptures according to Sacred Tradition. The Sacred Tradition is a lens through which we understand what we read. It enables us to understand what is written in the light of what the authors believed and taught.
Code:
Because they're the sole final, infallible authority, not Scripture.
Scripture is authoritative, but cannot wield authority, which is an activity peculiar to persons, not writings, however Holy In order to be infallible one must be able to act, make a mistake, take responsibility for one’s actions, and be held accountable for one’s discernment. These are activities of persons.

The Scriptures are considered inerrant and inspired, and are profitable to the Church in the duties that Jesus gave to the ministers…
Code:
Which the Church ignores.
I am not sure what you are referencing here. Do you expect the Church founded by Christ to take the early Fathers out of context, as you do? If that is so, then you will be sorely disappointed. We consider the divine deposit of faith to be ONE, as such, as seamless garment that we are not permitted to rend.
Code:
Again something Catholics (especially those who adhere to rule #1 because it's whatever the magesterium says it is). e.g. Mary = Refuge of Sinners.
I am not sure what this has to do with the thread topic, and it seems to be a hostile comment toward the faith of Catholics. Perhaps you do not consider Mary to be Theotokos, as we do, and that is ok, but you don’t need to get rude about it.
Again something the church ignores (e.g. John 6:51-53 & Genesis 1-3) go figure.
Clearly our literal understanding of the text is not the same as yours.
Code:
Because we know better.
This being the case, Parker, why are you here on CAF?
Code:
Key Word: GUIDED.
The Early Church Fathers never claimed infallibility which the Catholics keep appealing to them as the final source.

Parker
I am not sure what you are referencing here, either. Catholics don’t consider the ECF’s infallible, either. We find in their writings references to the infallible teachings of the Apostles that are preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit.
I’ve been working steadily on my book for a while and spending time setting up a blog to share with fellow people and entertaining a forum is not all that easy. Sure, it’s got some information about myself but** it’s all in aims of getting my name out there **and answering some questions.I could say the same thing for Catholics who endlessly cite spurious Scripture passages in an attempt to ‘prove’ the truth. The sad part is that most of these verses used are taken to support the logical leaps of Catholic Doctrine.

Parker
I guess this answers my question above about why you are here. Now when someone googles your name, they will know you have been on CAF! That should help you make a name for yourself. 👍
 
Is papal infallibility something Paul taught to the Corinthians and Thessalonians? Can you show us where Scripture says that the bishop of Rome is infallible? Can you show us where any of the fathers from the first 4 centuries said that? Not places where they said complimentary things about Rome, or about her bishops, but where they actually said something that means the bishop of Rome is infallible.
Algo1, since I see no response from any Protestants on here to the Reformers’ plain abandonment of a core early Christian doctrine that is firmly rooted in Scripture and confirmed by the unambiguous lens of Tradition – the Sacrament of Confession – I’m assuming there is a concession that Protestants might be wrong and the Catholic Church might be right on this point (see posts 138 to 143). Instead, you skip over Confession (Parker also ignores it) and challenge Catholics to demonstrate that papal infallibility has been divinely revealed to us. Geesh, if we could “prove” this, Protestantism would probably cease to exist. 🙂 But I’ll do my best.

I think a case can be made that papal infallibility is rooted in Sacred Scripture and that there was a gradual realization by the ECFs that the leader of the Church – the Bishop of Rome, as Peter’s successor – is infallible in matters of religion.

First, God promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18). It’s not a stretch to take this to mean that God would preserve the Church from falling into doctrinal error. Indeed, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church “to all truth” (Jn. 16:13). And St. Paul refers to the Church as the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). I think you’ll allow that the ECFs took it for granted that the Church, when she spoke authoritatively and as one on doctrine (e.g., at the Council of Nicaea), could not err.

Second, Scripture is quite clear, from a Catholic perspective (i.e., when read through the lens of Tradition), that Peter was the first head of the Church. Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter – Rock – and said that he would build His Church on Peter (Matt. 16:18). Even if you don’t agree that Peter was the rock on which Jesus built His Church, I think you’ll concede that many (most?) Protestant scholars today will admit this to be true (contrary to their Protestant forebears). Moreover, just before His Ascension, Jesus, the Shepherd, explicitly passed on his role as chief shepherd to Peter (Jn. 21:15-17). And the passages in the Acts of the Apostles are legion demonstrating that Christians and Jews alike regarded Peter as the leader of the nascent Church. So Scripture can be read as demonstrating that the Church cannot be lead into error and, further, that Peter was its first leader. If Peter was truly the Church’s chief shepherd, it is not a stretch to believe that Scripture supports Peter’s universal jurisdiction over the Church.

Next, the ECFs support the notion that Rome was the see of Peter (even though he was bishop of Antioch first, the ECFs consistently referred to Rome, not Antioch, as Peter’s see). The ECFs also support the idea that the bishops of Rome were Peter’s successors. To save room, I won’t quote these passages, and I’m sure you are familiar with them anyway. Suffice to say, ECFs confirming that Rome was Peter’s see and that the Bishop of Rome was Peter’s successor include passages from Cyprian, the Poem Against the Marcionites, the Council of Sardica, Hilary, Optatus, Jerome, Pope Damasus, the Ambrosiaster, Pope Siricius, Ambrose and Augustine.

The ECFs also lend support to the idea that the Bishop of Rome, as Peter’s successor, exercised universal jurisdiction over the Church. True, some ECFs may not have fully grasped the full power of papal prerogatives. Nevertheless, early evidence of the Pope’s universal jurisdiction is striking. Again, I won’t quote them here, but such passages include Clement of Rome’s exercise of jurisdiction over Corinth in the late first century, appeals to Rome to resolve the second century Montanist controversy in the East, Pope Victor’s threat to excommunicate entire eastern churches over the Easter controversy in the late second century, Cyprian (though, granted, he resisted Rome at times as well – but in the end, the Pope’s view in the rebaptism controversy prevailed), the Pope’s adjudication of the orthodoxy of Denis of Alexandria in the mid-third century, Pope Julius’ reinstatement of Athanasius as the bishop of Alexandria and his rebuke of the Eastern bishops for the “novel” act of deposing the Bishop of Alexandria without first appealing to Rome according to “the traditions of the fathers,” the Council of Sardica, Hilary, Basil, the Ambrosiaster, Ambrose, Pope Siricius, Pope Zosimus, Jerome, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria, Pope Leo, Theodoret, and Pope Gregory.

Now we come to papal infallibility – the idea that, through divine providence, the Pope will never commit the Church to error in any matter of religion. If the Church is infallible, and the successor of Peter is its head, with universal jurisdiction over the Church, it follows that the successor must likewise be protected from error in doctrine. Otherwise, the leader’s error would lead the Church into error, an impossibility if God the Holy Spirit is truly keeping watch. In this regard, it cannot be overemphasized that Jesus intertwined the indefectibility of the Church with the rock, Peter, in the very same passage of Scripture (Matt. 16:18). Put differently, papal infallibility is the logical conclusion of two separate revealed truths: (1) the Church is infallible and (2) the Pope is the earthly head of the Church with universal jurisdiction over Her, i.e., the place where “the buck stops.” Infallibility is implicit, rather than explicit, in many patristic passages (though it is made explicit in some too, as I hope to demonstrate).

con’t.
 
Apologies to PatrickSebast, but Algo1 specifically asked for ECF passages – just skip em’ if you like! Here are some patristic passages that can be read (implicitly if not explicitly) as supporting the reality of papal infallibility…
  1. St. Irenaeus: “[A]ll Churches must agree [with Rome], that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies [180 AD]).
  2. St. Cyprian explicitly stated that “false faith can have no access” to Rome and that “sacerdotal unity has its source [in] the chair of Peter” (Epistle 49 [252 AD]).
  3. St. Optatus observed that in “Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter” and explained that the true Church must always possess the chair of Peter and orthodox doctrine, which clearly entails that Rome could never abandon the orthodox faith (The Schism of the Donatists [367 AD]).
  4. At a synod of Antioch held in 379 AD, presided over by Meletius, 153 Eastern bishops specially noted their agreement with the faith of Rome: “Here ends this letter or exposition of the Roman synod held under Pope Damasus, and sent to the East, to which all the Eastern Church, having held a synod at Antioch, agrees in the same faith; and all thus agreeing to confirm the faith explained above, each one by his own signature.”
  5. When Pope Damasus (r. 366-384 AD) condemned the heresy that made the Holy Spirit less than God the Father and the Son (in 380 AD, preceding the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD), Sozomen the Church historian described what happened: “When this question was discussed and grew from day to day from love of debate, the Bishop of the city Rome, having heard the matter, wrote to the Churches of the East that they must confess the consubstantial Trinity equal in honor and glory, as do the Western bishops. When he did this all were quiet, as the controversy was ended by the judgment of the Roman Church; and this question at last seemed to be ended” (Ecclesiastical History).
  6. Pope Damasus: “The holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior [in Matthew 16:18-19] . . . The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (The Decree of Damasus [382 AD]).
  7. Emperor Theodosius I (379-395 AD) published a peremptory edict: “We command that all the people governed by our gracious rule live in that religion which the Divine apostle Peter handed down to the Romans, as the faith taught by him shows to this day, which, as is well known, the Pontiff Damasus professes, and Peter of Alexandria, a man of apostolic virtue” (380 AD).
  8. The Synod of Milan, under St Ambrose’s guidance, wrote: “But if they will not believe the teaching of the bishops, let them believe the oracles of Christ, let them believe the warning of angels who say: ‘Nothing is impossible to God’; let them believe the Apostles’ Creed, which the Roman Church always keeps and preserves incorrupt” (Epistle 42 [ca. 389 AD]).
  9. After the Synod of Carthage (416 AD) condemned Pelagianism, it submitted its decrees to Pope Innocent (r. 401-417 AD), who responded as follows: “In seeking the things of God, . . . following the examples of ancient tradition, . . . you have strengthened . . . the vigor of your religion with true reason, for you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us, and have shown that you know what is owed to the Apostolic See, if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the Apostle himself from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have merged . . .They did not regard anything as finished, even though it was the concern of distant and remote provinces, until it had come to the notice of this See, so that what was a just pronouncement might be confirmed by the total authority of this See” (Letter to the Council of Carthage [417 AD]).
In response to the Council of Milevis (416 AD), which similarly condemned Pelagianism, Pope Innocent wrote: “Rightly and properly you have consulted the judgment of the apostle’s honor, I mean the honor of him who has, besides the things that are without, the care of all the Churches . . . How is it you confirm this by your act, except that you know that we always send answers from the apostolic fount to those who seek them from all provinces? Especially whenever a question of faith is raised I hold that all our brothers and fellow-bishops should refer it to Peter only, that is, to the heir of his name and honor, as you have now done. For he can help all Churches in common throughout the whole world” (Epistle 30 [417 AD]).
  1. When Milevis received this letter, St. Augustine uttered his famous line: “[On this matter of the Pelagians] two Councils [at Carthage and Milevis] have already been sent to the Apostolic See *; and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end [due to the authority of Rome]; would that the error too might sometime be at an end!” (Sermons [inter 391 – 430 AD]). This is the origin of the saying: “Roma locuta est, causa finita est,” i.e., Rome has spoken, the case is finished.
St. Augustine further remarked: “Concerning this matter [Pelagianism] all doubt has been removed by the letter of Pope Innocent of blessed memory” (Contra duas Epist. Pelag [before 430 AD]).

con’t.*
 
Code:
No Old Testament either? Gasp! :eek:
I am sure God could have preserved His Word to mankind any way He chose. It is significant that He prepared a people through Sacred Tradition.

I note you gave no answer to the question. How did the Word of God get from Adam to Moses.
Your definition of ‘tradition’ has no basis in scripture
I guess we read it differently, don’t we? 😃

Have you never wondered why Paul would praise the disciples for following “traditions of men”?
i.e., tradition being the doctrines the NT writers forgot to mention in Scripture’. Where is it in scripture? Answer: NO WHERE.
No, Parker. We do not define Sacred Tradition as “doctrines the NT writers forgot to mention”. This is a strawman.

If you want to disagree with the Catholic faith, why not do so with integrity? Disagree with what we really believe and teach, rather than these fantasies you or someone else have invented?
It only proves how the church has undergone a transformation to apostasy
I can see how one could pick various quotes out of the ECF’s to “prove” such a thing. I have noted that the same is done with Scripture. One can pick out parts of writings and “prove” whatever newfangled doctrine they want. 🤷
Source of the problem identified
Can you show a verse in Scripture that states only Scripture should be used to determine correct doctrine? I can show you several that say the opposite…
But we can make conclusions based on its implications.
And so has the Church founded by Christ done since the beginning. But these conclusions from implications are all based on Sacred Tradition, like the creation of the term “Trinity”.
No, no, no, no. It needs to have either an explicit or implicit declaration. I think you misunderstood SS.

Parker
It would not be difficult to misunderstand it, since it is a modern innovation,and it has so many different meanings for different people.

I visited your blog, Parker. I found this statement resonated with me perfectly:
40.png
haparker321:
So far I discovered that my writing needs some major revisions in the first few chapters because some of the information I’m shelling out doesn’t make sense.
😃
 
  1. Pope Zosimus (r. 417-418), also writing about Pelagianism (a matter of faith), said: “The tradition of the Fathers gives so much authority to the Apostolic See that no one dare contradict its judgment . . . So great is our authority that no one may go back on our verdict” (Epistle 12).
  2. Emperor Valentinan III (423-455 AD): “We must defend the faith handed down by our fathers with all care; and we must keep the proper reverence due to the blessed apostle Peter incorrupt in our time also. Therefore the most blessed Bishop of the Roman city, to whom ancient right has given the authority of the priesthood over all, shall have his place, and power to judge the faith and about bishops” (Pope Leo’s Epistles, 55).
  3. In the fifth century, St. Cyril, bishop of Alexandria, appealed to Pope St. Celestine to render a decision on the orthodoxy of Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople: “God requires us to be vigilant in these matters and the ancient customs of the Churches persuade that we should communicate with your Holiness [in Rome]. We do not openly and publicly break off communion with [Nestorius] before communicating these things to your Piety. Deign therefore to declare what seems to you right; and whether one must remain still in communion with him, or ought it to be proclaimed publicly that no one communicated with one who professes to teach such errors?” (Letter to Pope Celestine [ca. 431 AD]). Nestorius, likewise, appealed to Pope Celestine, attempting to persuade him of the orthodoxy of his views. In response to these cross-appeals, Pope Celestine authorized Cyril to act with Rome’s authority in condemning Nestorius “assuring to yourself the authority of our See [Rome] and using our stead and place, you will execute this sentence with the utmost severity” (Letter [ca. 431 AD]). After he was deposed (at the Council of Ephesus), Nestorius bitterly commented about the proceedings: “Who was judge? Cyril. Who was accuser? Cyril. Who was Bishop of Rome? Cyril. Cyril was everything.” The fact that Nestorius equated his judge and accuser with the bishop of Rome sheds light on his views on the Roman primacy. In his eyes, Cyril had arrogated to himself the authority and prerogatives of the pope himself.
Again, why did Cyril feel the need to appeal to the Pope before proceeding against Nestorius? There is no need to speculate; he says so in his own words – “ancient customs” require it. And as far as I know, neither Cyril nor Nestorius appealed to the other two Eastern sees – Antioch or Jerusalem. Rather, they appealed to Rome alone.
  1. Pope Sixtus III: “The blessed apostle Peter, in his successors, has handed down what he received. Who would be willing to separate himself from the doctrine of whom the Master himself instructed first among the apostles?” (To John of Antioch [433 AD]).
  2. St. Peter Chrysologus: “We exhort you in every respect, humble brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the Most Blessed Pope of the City of Rome; for Blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the Bishop of the City of Rome” (Letter to Eutyches [a monophysite] [449 AD]).
  3. Pope Leo the Great: “Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. From this formality there arose also a distinction among bishops, and by a great arrangement it was provided that no one should arrogate everything to himself, but in individual provinces there should be individual bishops whose opinions among their brothers should be first; and again, certain others, established in larger cities, were to accept a greater responsibility. Through them the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head” (Letter of Pope Leo I to Anastasius, Bishop of Thessalonica [ca. 446 AD]).
  4. Council of Chalcedon (451 AD): “After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Pope Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo! . . . This is the true faith! Those of us who are orthodox thus believe! This is the faith of the Fathers! . . . Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present and most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus, the bishop of Alexandria following Cyril’s death] of the episcopate” (Acts of the Council, Sessions 2 and 3).
con’t.
 
  1. Theodoret of Cyr: “This most holy See [Rome] has preserved the supremacy over all Churches on the earth, for one especial reason among many others; to wit, that it has remained intact from the defilement of heresy. No one has ever sat on that Chair, who has taught heretical doctrine; rather that See has ever preserved unstained the Apostolic grace” (Epistle 116 to Renatus [before 466 AD]).
  2. Pope Gregory the Great: “Your most sweet holiness, [Eulogius, bishop of Alexandria], has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy . . . I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter’s chair, who occupies Peter’s chair. And, though special honor to myself in no wise delights me . . . who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the prince of the apostles” (Letter to Eulogius [597 AD]).
  3. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote: “But if any will have it that the one Head and one Shepherd is Christ, that being the one Spouse of the one Church, his view is inadequate to the facts. For clearly Christ Himself gives effect to the Sacraments of the Church – He it is who baptizes, He forgives sins, He is the true Priest who has offered Himself on the altar of the cross, and by His power His Body is daily consecrated at our altars – nevertheless, because He was not to be present in bodily shape with all His faithful, He chose ministers and would dispense His gifts to His faithful people through their hands. And by reason of the same future absence it was needful for Him to issue His commission to some one to take care of the universal Church in His stead. Hence He said to Peter before His Ascension, ‘Feed my sheep’ (Jn. 21:1) and before His Passion, ‘Thou in thy turn confirm thy brethren’ (Lk. 22:32); and to him alone He made the promise, ‘To thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 16:19) . . . Nor can it be said that although He gave this dignity to Peter, it does not pass from Peter to others . For Christ instituted His Church to last to the end of the world, according to the text: ‘He shall sit upon the throne of David and in his kingdom, to confirm and strengthen it in justice and judgment and henceforth, now, and forever’ (Is. 9:7). Therefore, in constituting His ministers for the time, He intended their power to pass to posterity for the benefit of His Church to the end of the world, as He Himself says: ‘Lo, I am with you to the end of the world’ (Matt. 28:20) . . . Hereby is cast out the presumptuous error of some, who endeavor to withdraw themselves from obedience and subjection to Peter, not recognizing his successor, the Roman Pontiff, for the pastor of the Universal Church” (Summa Contra Gentiles Book IV, ch. 76).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onenow1
Hi, Paul
Algo.
In Acts 5, the Sanhedrin was telling the Apostles to stop teaching about Jesus. Peter’s response, as always, speaking for all the Apostles , was was recorded above.

Calvin says that the Pope set himself openly against God. He could not prove that , anymore than the Sanhedrin could in the days after Pentacost. And neither can you. In fact, it can clearly be shown that Calvin diverged significantly from the Church prior to him with his views on predestination and limited atonement, which are directly contradicted in scripture.
 
“Sola Scriptura is not implied by the Bible (assuming that you are equating the Bible with ‘Word of God’). I challenge you to prove me wrong. In the interest of time, you can simply put forth what you consider to be your strongest biblical argument in favor of Sola Scriptura. If it fails to “pass muster” then we can examine the others, one at a time.”
If we’re going to go with my definition, I’m willing to open up a new thread with that given that we work with my definitions and examples. This is about ECF’s, not whether SS has a scriptural basis.

Parker
 
Insomuch as his writings contain the word of God, of course.
I would beg to differ because Augustine never made that claim.
All the early fathers quote the inspired Word of God. Is it less God’s Word in their writings?
Yes because it’s not an authoritative form of Scripture i.e., functioning as the word of God.
Sources, please.
2 Peter 3:15-16, although it’s not explicit in mentioning Paul’s writings as official scripture, we can draw a conclusion that it was by implication.
Sacred Tradition, like all the other Revelation of God, stands above and outside of modern science. Proofs are in the realm of human reasoning only. I doubt there is any way to scientifically prove that the authors of the NT are who we say they are. That is why it is called an article of faith.
I’m not looking for something scientific here; I’m asking for documented proof from either an explicit or implicit source.
Answer the question, Parker. How did the Word of God get preserved from Adam to Moses?
I don’t think it was issued at that point. The first five books were written by Moses.
Parker, how would it be possible for me to “prove” that you are ignoring part of the Scripture?
Because your line of logic falls along the fallacy of attacks ad hominem. In other words, instead of providing counter evidence, proving what I’ve said as false or done so out of ignorance, you have only called me a liar or ignorant where the truth of the matter is that you cannot prove it.

Parker
 
Quote:
“some legitimacy”? Oral Tradition, properly defined, is legitimate or there would be no Bible.
The point he was making was that Moses wrote down Genesis hundred and tousands of years after the events, based on what had been passed down by word of moutn
Quote:
The authority of Scriptures is a Tradition of the Church. All you have proven is your own reformist definition of Tradition, which is not the one we have been using for 2000 years.
Scripture is based on tradition. Not the other way around.
Quote:
Using quotes of the ECF’s to disprove the Catholic Church is an excercise in futility.
This is a laughably unsustainable statement. The most you can do is show that a few individual Fathers drifted from the Church in their views.
Quote:
The Church is the servant of the scriptures.
Quote:
The Church has always used scriptures as a primary source for doctrine, but not the only source.
What problem is that?
Quote:
There is nothing in the Bible that says only doctrines found explicitly in scripture can be used.
And what makes those conclusions credible?
Quote:
Your belief that everything must be explicity found in scripture in order to be trustworthy, is a self destructing doctrine, and a tradition of men.
I think you misunderstand sola Scriptura. Its simply an excuse for men to interpret scripture anyway they want to their own destruction (2 Peter3). Remember, Satan used his own interpretation of scripture to tempt Jesus (Matthew 4)
 
It is so hard to actually convey what the Catholic teaching on the relationship between Scripture and the Magisterium is in these small posts.

The question you ask is a big one, and I recommend you read the Catholic Encyclopedia article “Tradition and Living Magisterium” to start to understand the actual Catholic teaching and its nuances. I’m not saying you have to agree with it, but at least use it as a frame of reference to understand what the Church teaches on this point.

I would recommend it to Catholics as well, it gives a concise understanding of what is involved.

It can be found here: newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
 
Quote:
Insomuch as his writings contain the word of God, of course.
What Augustine and all Church fathers do, is to quote scripture within the context of Catholic Tradition. But I would agree with you that the writings of the Early church fathers don’t carry the same weight as scripture. They are useful, however, in understanding HOW to interpret scripture when taken as a whole. And that’s the rub, In their totallity, the ECFs demonstrate Catholic tradition by how they understand scripture.
Quote:
Sources, please
Yes, I agree with you , Peter is declaring Paul’s letters scripture in 2Peter 3. And why was he qualified to do so? Because he was Pope.
Quote:
Sacred Tradition, like all the other Revelation of God, stands above and outside of modern science. Proofs are in the realm of human reasoning only. I doubt there is any way to scientifically prove that the authors of the NT are who we say they are. That is why it is called an article of faith
Parker, you have been given reams of ECF quotes by Igatius33, more than I’m sure you were willing to read, that demonstrate their belief in Catholic Tradition and the authority of the Pope to definethe truths of the faith. However, you have separated yourself from the one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to the point that the only proof you will accept is a truncated form of the Bible. so naturally you won’t accept this as proof. Its like when you talk to an athiest and he won’t accept the resurrection because he doesn’t believe in miracles. its self limiting.

The simple fact is that the Bible can’t interpret itself. That it is not self-interpreting is proven every time two people read the same text and come to different doctrinal conclusions. Therefore, it is ABUNDANTLY clear that sola scriptura fails- without valid, authoritative interpretation, scripture is virtually worthless because it can so easily be twisted, As Peter warns in 2Peter 3 and the Devil proves by his use of it in Matthew 4.
The only question that remains is whose interpretations are to be trusted. The challenge to you is to demonstrate that any one other than the Magesterium of the Catholic Church is a credible interpreter of scripture. Afterall, the Catholic Popes have the succession from St. Peter, the Promises of Christ in scripture and the doctrinal continuity demonstrated by the totallity of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers to demonstrate their credibility Further, through the centuries, there have been abundant supernatural proofs as well. In the last 150 years, there have been the apparitions and healings at Lourdes (not to mention the creation of the stream), the apparitions and miracle of the sun at Fatima and the stigmata of Padre Pio to name a few. What did Calvin have to demonstrate his credibility in comparison?
Quote:
Answer the question, Parker. How did the Word of God get preserved from Adam to Moses?
This is because you think so narrowly - that the word of God must be in book form. But the truth of the matter is that other than the stone tablets with the 10 commandments, God has never communicated with the people through writing. Inspired authors wrote down what they had heard but God doesn’t publish books. he could of course, but books can be misinterpreted. If someone misunderstands what a person says, the person can correct them and put them on the right track. Not so with a book.
Moses documented in Genesis the storie stha thad been passed on by word of mouth for generations.
Quote:
Parker, how would it be possible for me to “prove” that you are ignoring part of the Scripture?
There is no need to prove that you are ignoring part of scripture. What IS true is that you are interpreting scripture differently than the Catholic Church, the only credible interpreter. You must conceed that you have a different interpretation, even if you aren’t willing to conceed that the Church is the credible interpreter. Our task then becomes simple. I have made the arguments for the Catholic Church’s crediblity. It is up to you to dispute this and more to the point, to prove you have a more credible witness to the truth.
 
If we’re going to go with my definition, I’m willing to open up a new thread with that given that we work with my definitions and examples. This is about ECF’s, not whether SS has a scriptural basis.

Parker
As guanophore pointed out in Post #92, a discussion over the scriptural basis of SS is relevant to this thread: “Since he claims all of Sacred Tradition is found in the Scriptures, it seems like it would be relevant to the thread. According to his premise, he has to ‘prove’ that the Scriptures are a full compendium of the faith.”

You have also repeatedly stated that SS is implied in the Bible, and I have simply asked you to cite the passages where such implications happen. But I am perfectly willing to debate this in a separate thread, so I invite you to set it up, explain the parameters and make your best case for biblical evidence of SS. Moreover, it would helpful if you give the “heads up” in this thread that such a new discussion has been started so that I don’t overlook it.
 
As guanophore pointed out in Post #92, a discussion over the scriptural basis of SS is relevant to this thread: “Since he claims all of Sacred Tradition is found in the Scriptures, it seems like it would be relevant to the thread. According to his premise, he has to ‘prove’ that the Scriptures are a full compendium of the faith.”

You have also repeatedly stated that SS is implied in the Bible, and I have simply asked you to cite the passages where such implications happen. But I am perfectly willing to debate this in a separate thread, so I invite you to set it up, explain the parameters and make your best case for biblical evidence of SS. Moreover, it would helpful if you give the “heads up” in this thread that such a new discussion has been started so that I don’t overlook it.
Ironically, he quotes 2Peter3: 15-16 as a proof of sola scriptura.
Originally Posted by haparker321
Quote:
Quote:
Sources, please
.

2 Peter 3:15-16, although it’s not explicit in mentioning Paul’s writings as official scripture, we can draw a conclusion that it was by implication.

So let’s look:

15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

He says this because Peter identifes Paul’s letters as scripture. What he ignores is:
a) Peter, as Pope, is authorized to define what is and isn’t scripture.
b) that the crux of the passage is that people outside the church are misusing the letters of Paul to their own detriment, just as they do other scriptures.

This is classic. Twisting scripture to say exactly the opposite of what the author intended (as defined by Catholic Tradition). Peter is saying sola scriptura doesn’t work but yet Parker is trying to use it as a sola scriptura defence.
 
So does this mean that you view God’s revelation in Scripture as materially sufficient as several other posters on this thread do?
Yes. This is the Teaching of the Apostles
Then do you agree with paulc’s comment:
This is true. All the doctrines are in the Bible so it is materially sufficient but not formally sufficient, the difference being that the Bible is not so clear that everyone can come to the same conclusions reading it without official interpretations:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9310fea2sb2.asp
Is papal infallibility something Paul taught to the Corinthians and Thessalonians?
Is Mary’s bodily assumption something he taught them?
I think it is very possible that Mary was still alive at the time. Paul taught the Catholic Gospel, which means he received the promise of Christ that He would lead the Church into “all Truth”, not leave her orphaned, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. He taught that the Apostles authority came from God, and that this authority is universal. In all things he was in harmony with Peter.
If Mary was still living when Paul taught the Corinthians and Thessalonians then it could not have been something he had ‘delivered’ (1 Cor. 11:2), ‘taught’ (2 Thess. 2:15), or ‘commanded’ (2 Thess. 3:6). Furthermore, since it is not even mentioned in Scripture then it can not be defended from a ‘material sufficiency’ interpretation.
Is papal infallibility something Paul taught to the Corinthians and Thessalonians?
Is Mary’s bodily assumption something he taught them?
He taught in Greek, primarily, and the word “papal” may well have been unknown to him. 😃
Yes, the papacy was indeed a myth totally unknown to him.
Do you think that Papal infallibility and the bodily assumption are just new names (“terms”) for a set of previously held views, as with the Trinity?
Let’s compare - we can’t find the word “trinity” in the Bible, but we can find “one God” and proof that each of the three persons is God, and that they aren’t each other.
Now, can we find something similar regarding papal infallibility? No … we always find something less than the whole doctrine. There’s always something “more” to be added.
Can you show us where Scripture says that the bishop of Rome is infallible?
Yes, it is right there next to the definition of the word “Trinity”. 😉
That implies that papal infallibility isn’t something that Paul taught them, whether under that name or any other name. Unlike the Trinity, the concept itself wasn’t there.
Seriously, this is how we understand the Scriptures referring to Jesus’ promises above. If Jesus is leading the Church into “all Truth”, then how can the Church be fallible?
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
(John 16:13 ESV)
Well, Jesus made that promise to the Apostles. It doesn’t say to the church or their successors. He was speaking to the apostles regarding the future inscripturated revelation.
And according to :
Augustine (354-430): God alone swears securely, ** because He alone is infallible. **
NPNF1: Vol. VIII, St. Augustin on the Psalms, Psalm 89, § 4.
Latin text: Deus solus securus jurat, quia falli non potest.
See In Psalmum LXXXVIII Enarratio, Sermo I, PL 37:1122.

Augustine (354-430): But human authority is very often deceiving. FC, Vol. 5, Saint Augustine On Divine Providence and the Problem of Evil, Book 2, Chapter 9, §27 (New York: CIMA Publishing Co., Inc., 1948), p. 305.
Latin text: Humana vero auctoritas plerumque fallit. De Ordine, Liber Secundus, Caput IX, §27, PL 32:1008.

Note his use of the Latin words ‘falli and fallit’ to mean ‘fallible’ or ‘deceiving’.
Can you show us where any of the fathers from the first 4 centuries said that?
There are many references to the One Faith, and the primacy of the successor of Peter who guards it. I accept that you do not read them this way.
No but I do acknowledge that Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage claimed that he and all other bishops sat on the ‘cathedra petri’. If you look at Ignatius33’s list above you might find something.
Not places where they said complimentary things about Rome, or about her bishops, but where they actually said something that means the bishop of Rome is infallible.
Algo, I challenge you to “go East” and try to convince the Orthodox that the Church is not protected by the gift of infalliblity by God. This is not some “Roman” invention.
It appears that many of the quotes used by Ignatius33 above are in fact " complimentary things about Rome, or about her bishops,". And since Augustine does not consider the Bishops of Rome to be “God” {although later in history they began calling themselves ‘Vicar of Christ’} from Augustine’s quotes above he did not consider them or the church to be infallible.
I am not interested in ‘convincing the Orthodox’ of anything at the moment.
I think I used the term ‘myth’ above but “Roman invention” works too.
 
Let’s compare - we can’t find the word “trinity” in the Bible, but we can find “one God” and proof that each of the three persons is God, and that they aren’t each other.
Now, can we find something similar regarding papal infallibility? No … we always find something less than the whole doctrine. There’s always something “more” to be added.
I challenge you to use the Bible to prove that the Holy Spirit is a divine person distinct from the Father and the Son. Note that certain groups such as the SDAs categorically deny that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divine person for the fact that it is not in the Bible.

Also, I challenge you to use the Bible to demonstrate that the divine persons are specifically limited to three and only three. If you are unable to succeed in both these challenges then you will have to conclude that the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is derived from Sacred Tradition.

Moreover, I am still waiting for you to respond to Post #146
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top