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sandusky
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I disagree with you, Phil. Scripture, itself, claims to be sufficient and powerful to bring one to salvation, and to bring one to God’s approval.
Of course.
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sandusky
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paul c:
paul c:
It’s foolish of you to think that I’ve used the CCC to support SS.
paul c:
I’ve not taken anything out of context in post paragraphs 106 and 107, which are plainly stated.
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clmowry
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cfrancis
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Sandusky, could you please explain what you mean by “a biblically-based church?”
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Tomster
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This ought to be good.
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paul_c
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Sandusky,
I fulfilled your requirement. I provided you a testimony from an ECF (Saint Irenaeas from 180 AD) that clearly says that there are doctrines passed down from the Apostles that weren’t in scripture. In fact there are many examples within his Against Heresies (for which I provided the link in post 652). You’ve been holding the line of Sola Scriptura for about 650 posts now. In good faith, we’ve provided everything you’ve asked for in your quest for the truth: lists, logic and now ECF evidence that the Apostles supported Doctrine not to be found in the Bible. Surely there is nothing else left to be shown…
That does not mean that you should abandon your bible-everything in it is truth. You just need to open your aperture up a bit and recognize the additional truths not in it…This is important if you are more worried about your salvation than you are winning a debate on the internet.
I fulfilled your requirement. I provided you a testimony from an ECF (Saint Irenaeas from 180 AD) that clearly says that there are doctrines passed down from the Apostles that weren’t in scripture. In fact there are many examples within his Against Heresies (for which I provided the link in post 652). You’ve been holding the line of Sola Scriptura for about 650 posts now. In good faith, we’ve provided everything you’ve asked for in your quest for the truth: lists, logic and now ECF evidence that the Apostles supported Doctrine not to be found in the Bible. Surely there is nothing else left to be shown…
That does not mean that you should abandon your bible-everything in it is truth. You just need to open your aperture up a bit and recognize the additional truths not in it…This is important if you are more worried about your salvation than you are winning a debate on the internet.
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sandusky
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Sure it does.
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sandusky
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Which doctrines, not found in scripture, does Irenaeus illustrate in what he says, IYO?
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clmowry
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Unt uh. And you can’t prove it.
Chuck
(Ah this reminds me of those good old days, having conversations with my little brothers.)
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sandusky
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Uh huh (yes it does).
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Tomster
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There are also doctrines that are in the Bible that were passed on in written form in the Didache, an “extra-biblical Book”. Interesting that our esteemed adversary refuses to look at this document.
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BRB
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Sandman …
Scriptures give us the essentials for salvation, but not the full Christian story.
Have you mastered the essentials yet ? Its my premise that Christians probably can’t … w/o first experiencing ‘full communion’ in the Church. Indeed the Church teaches that Confession and the Real Presense Eucharist are essential to Christian development.
Paul, John, and Peter achieved mastery [stage 3 theosis]. They experienced total catharsis, illumination, and unity … and only then could fulfill the Beatitudes. Why should you/I think we can advance in our knowledge/understanding/obedience … apart from Christ’s Church ?
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sandusky
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There are doctrines expounded and passed on today in “extra-biblical books,” such as commentaries, etc.
My point is, ISTM, that inherent in the Catholic position concerning “tradition,” there is the notion that what was taught orally by the apostles, differs from what they wrote.
As far as the Didache, I have no problem with the book. I have a friend, and fellow church member, who wrote a book on it, (The Way of the Didache: The First Christian Handbook) and it seems to have been well-received by some Catholics.
I had the great pleasure of sitting in on more than “a month of Sundays” of his lecturing on it prior to his book’s release.
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sandusky
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Off the top of my head, I’d point to Ps 19, and 119, as points for you to begin your denial of scripture’s sufficiency.
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paul_c
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Sandusky,
In answer to you question on what I thought was in scripture and what was orally tranfered in the Against heresy quote from St. Iraneas. I open to debate, but I think there is more confered here than from scripture, which is exactly the point. Tradition augments scripture
In answer to you question on what I thought was in scripture and what was orally tranfered in the Against heresy quote from St. Iraneas. I open to debate, but I think there is more confered here than from scripture, which is exactly the point. Tradition augments scripture
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paul_c
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Here is psalm 19, Where does it say that scripture alone is sufficient for salvation: In fact, where does it say anything about written scripture? The fact is, it says the decrees of the lord are trustworthy. We know Jesus didn’t write anything down so couldn’t this more accurately talk about oral tradition…
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For the leader. A psalm of David.
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The heavens declare the glory of God; the sky proclaims its builder’s craft.
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One day to the next conveys that message; one night to the next imparts that knowledge.
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There is no word or sound; no voice is heard;
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Yet their report goes forth through all the earth, their message, to the ends of the world. God has pitched there a tent for the sun;
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it comes forth like a bridegroom from his chamber, and like an athlete joyfully runs its course.
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From one end of the heavens it comes forth; its course runs through to the other; nothing escapes its heat.
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The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. **The decree of the LORD is trustworthy, giving wisdom to the simple. **
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The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart. The command of the LORD is clear, enlightening the eye.
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The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The statutes of the LORD are true, all of them just;
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More desirable than gold, than a hoard of purest gold, Sweeter also than honey or drippings from the comb.
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By them your servant is instructed; obeying them brings much reward.
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Who can detect heedless failings? Cleanse me from my unknown faults.
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But from willful sins keep your servant; let them never control me. Then shall I be blameless, innocent of grave sin.
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Let the words of my mouth meet with your favor, keep the thoughts of my heart before you, LORD, my rock and my redeemer.
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clmowry
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Now you’ve changed the game.
Proving your claim that scripture claims sufficiency for itself is one conversation.
Debating whether or not scripture contians enough truth to be materially sufficient for salvation is not the same thing.
Chuck
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paul_c
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Like ps 19, Ps 119 talks about following God’s decrees, but this could just as readily be orally translated decrees as they could written scripture. The distinction is never made. Considering that when these were written, probably 1000BC, it is much more likely that the translation was primarily oral. don’t you agree?
(since its the longest Psalm, I won’t bother copying it in.
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Peter_J
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sandusky,
I don’t usually get into these kind of arguments, but I can’t help wondering: in what form, specifically, do you see that claim existing in, say A.D. 40 or 50, i.e. before the entire New Testament had been written? Perhaps just as a general principle that the entire Deposit of Faith should, be written down eventually?
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Peter_J
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