Early church fathers believed in sola scriptura?

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Whitaker’s statement will still be unanswered 420 years from now.
:hmmm: Perhaps because it is so idiotic and so silly that only imbeciles could really think that Whitaker can be reasonable and still believe in the authority of the written word. By answering it, it might make Whitaker’s point less stupid than it really is.

Apparently, you still haven’t understood what the Catholic concept of Tradition is about. You still hold on to the idea of Tradition as simply a collection of items, or that living Tradition could ever be contained in something written.

Can culture be written down into a book? Can I write about Scouting traditions and pass on to my grandchildren and say: “Here is the list of Scouting traditions, study it hard and you will be like any other Scout, even if you will never be part of the Scout movement”? Only by entering into the life of the Scout unit can the Scouting traditions be handed on fully, because these traditions are a way of living, thinking and being. It cannot be all written down. Ditto for God’s revelation. When God revealed himself, he didn’t just leave behind some commandments and words, he left us his actions (which continues to be present) and his presence, his life and his love, we cannot confine the richness of God’s revelation to between 2 covers and 73 books (opps, for you its only 66).

Throughout the history of the Church, there have been times when heretics misinterpret the faith and the Church was guided by God to enunciate with greater clarity what is in accordance with the fullness of the Apostolic Tradition she has received. One can easily pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church for this purpose. I’m sure you can find a copy somewhere online.

But I’ll throw back a question at you. Other than the few Seventh-Day Adventists, and some other Protestant friends that I know, most Christians accept that Sunday is a holy day set aside for worship of the Lord. Since you think that Scripture is self-sufficient, how do these Christians base their rejection of the explicit command of God in OT to honour the Sabbath (clearly a Saturday) and worship on Sunday instead? Catholics can take refuge in Tradition as witnessed in the practice of the Church through the centuries, but sola Scriptura folks can’t.

You may have made a terrible caricature of Catholic teaching in one of your posts when you said:
You have no idea whether or not Scripture is rightly interpreted by anyone. Your church makes it clear that only she can rightly interpret scripture; you accept what she says.
Yes, Catholics accept that the Catholic Church can infallibly and authentically interpret Scripture as well as Tradition, as well as any matters pertaining to God. But within the Catholic Tradition, there are many, many possible ways of understanding and interpreting the same text of Scripture. By tradition, we can understand the text literally, allegorically, morally or anagogically (though I doubt many Catholics know the last one). The website of the Congregation of the Clergy (Vatican) has generously made available the interpretational tools written by the Church Fathers, and you might be surprised to know that Church Fathers do contradict one another, yet these interpretations do not contradict the great Tradition of the faith from the Apostles.

So every Catholic reading the Bible do interpret the Scriptures. The Church doesn’t want us to be mindless when we read Scripture. But unlike sola Scriptura folks, we understand Scripture with the experience of the Catholic Tradition in mind. If we have an interpretation that is contrary to the living Tradition of the Church, we know that this is wrong, and we would set our interpretation aside and turn to the spiritual masters in the Church for assistance.

Catholics can take comfort that we know when we stray away from the Truth that God reveals. But for sola Scriptura folks like yourself, you have only the fate that you had already mentioned in store:
You have no idea whether or not Scripture is rightly interpreted by anyone. -]Your church makes it clear that only she can rightly interpret scripture; you accept what she says./-]
And you really have no idea who you can turn to to discern if you have played into the hands of Satan, who is himself the Master in twisting the words of Scripture.
 
Please tell us sandusky, where in scripture does it tell us what books are to be included in the Bible?
Where in scripture does it tell us what books are inspired?
Chapter and verse please.
Oh, don’t be mean to sandusky and set up a trap for him/her:dts: . It would really be a massive display of circuitous reasoning if anyone attempts to prove from Scripture the canon of Scripture.😉
 
Oh puleeessee.

List all of the unwritten tradition and their non-authors.
You really need to come up with a better intellectual response than that.
You give really silly answers when you don’t have a response.
Just blow off the entire post, just like you respond in others like “that is a canned answer”

But you really don’t have a response, so I guess I will have to accept “Oh puleeessee.”
 
LOL. Your response is sooo predictable. LOL.

Whitaker will be unanswered 420 years from now. 🤷
**Hmmmm - what a shock. **
Another non-response from a Protestant who is up against the ropes with nothing left to say . . . :rolleyes:
 
**Hmmmm - what a shock. **
Another non-response from a Protestant who is up against the ropes with nothing left to say . . . :rolleyes:
IMO, you’re so wrong about so many things, even your assessment of our “give-and-take.” 🙂
 
You really need to come up with a better intellectual response than that.
You give really silly answers when you don’t have a response.
Just blow off the entire post, just like you respond in others like “that is a canned answer”

But you really don’t have a response, so I guess I will have to accept “Oh puleeessee.”
I’d like you to respond with the list, or at least a half-hearted attempt at one. 🤷
 
You have no idea whether or not Scripture is rightly interpreted by anyone. Your church makes it clear that only she can rightly interpret scripture; you accept what she says.
Yes. “She” being the Church, the body of Christ. (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:27 “Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.”)

In the same, only she was able to determine which books belong in the NT and which do not, but she did so through real live, flesh-and-blood, 4th century Christians.
 
I’d like you to respond with the list, or at least a half-hearted attempt at one. 🤷
You can’t list them.

Sacred Tradition is the common teaching, common life, common worship and of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

“Tradition and Scripture are like a song with both music and words. They are in perfect harmony together and together they express the same thing. The music can be discussed in words, but it can never actually be put into words without ceasing to be music. Just so, Tradition is the truths of God that cannot be put into words without ceasing to be Sacred Infallible Tradition.”

But as the doctrines that have been defined by appealing to Sacred Tradition, I would point you to the teachings on the Eucharist, on Baptism, on the Pope, on Mary, as well as the understanding of the Trinity and how the divinity of Jesus fits into it. But these teachings are not the Sacred Traditions themselves, but are drawn from the Sacred Tradition, as well as the infallible Magisterium.
 
That’s easily proven by you: produce the list of oral teachings and who taught each one with sources please.
Well first of all, I don’t see you would need someone to provide a list. Wouldn’t providing just one example satisfy you?

Secondly, it is questionable whether you will get one example because (as I’ve been trying, with little apparent success, to explain to you) there isn’t any one Catholic position on the question of whether there’s such a thing as “constitutive Tradition” – that is to say, extra-scriptural doctrines. Some Catholics say that there is, some say that there isn’t.

What we can give you is examples of doctrines that are not made explicit in Scripture – e.g. the Assumption of Mary.
 
Back to the original topic - the ECFs believed in Sola Scriptura?

ISTM that the notion that the ECFs relied on Scripture alone is actually self contradictory. Perhaps the most obvious reason for this is that the ECFs did not all agree on a variety of topics of Scripture. Yet they all professed “the” Catholic faith. How could they agree on “the faith” if they disagreed on what Scripture meant? Is every topic that they disagreed upon, by definition, not part of the faith?? Hardly. That would mean that some Scripture either does not address the faith, or that it no longer had relevance for their time. Both of these explanations fail when one realizes that later Fathers are the very ones who decided to keep these writings included in the canon of Scripture. Why would they do that if these writings were no longer relevant? They wouldnt have. Clearly the Scriptures were not the whole picture of the faith.
Did they consider the faith as something evolving? Sort of. It would seem that they endeavored to more fully grasp the Gospel in light of changing circumstances and perceptions of reality and that there was some authority outside of their individual efforts which would eventually bring finality to their efforts. Catholics see this entity as the magisterium, SS adherents are kinda vague on this issue. It is the very issue that makes defining the “sola” in SS so difficult. This, of course, assumes that I know what Sola Scriptura means. Unfortunately the definition of Sola Scriptura is not contained in Scripture and no one among those who espouse it has the authority to define it once and for all. It is clearly an extrabiblical “tradition” but not one that can actually be written down as far as I can tell. Sound familiar? 😉
 
Please tell us sandusky, where in scripture does it tell us what books are to be included in the Bible?
Where in scripture does it tell us what books are inspired?
Chapter and verse please.
Sola Scriptura presupposes a canon of Scriptura. :hmmm:
 
Sola Scriptura presupposes a canon of Scriptura. :hmmm:
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: [SIGN]Vote sandusky '10[/SIGN]:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

You should consider running for political office, that is one of the best non-answers I have heard in a long time. congratulations.
 
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: [SIGN]Vote sandusky '10[/SIGN]:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

You should consider running for political office, that is one of the best non-answers I have heard in a long time. congratulations.
And your very Catholic response is certainly hackneyed. 😉
 
Sola Scriptura presupposes a canon of Scriptura. :hmmm:
So if a fellow Christian said to you “I don’t believe that the Letter to the Hebrews belongs in the New Testament” what would you respond, “The Letter to the Hebrews is part of the New Testament because it’s part of the New Testament”?
 
So if a fellow Christian said to you “I don’t believe that the Letter to the Hebrews belongs in the New Testament” what would you respond, “The Letter to the Hebrews is part of the New Testament because it’s part of the New Testament”?
Please, Peter, we all know how the canon came into existence. :ehh:
 
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