Early Church Fathers Charasmatic?

[firstmode]

For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time. (Justin Martyr, c.150)

Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God. (Justin Martyr, c.150)

In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God. (Irenaeus, c.180)

This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, often discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed. (Novatian, c.200-c.258)

For God hath set same in the Church, first apostles…secondly prophets…thirdly teachers…next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases… and gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues. Clearly these are the Church’s agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them. (Hilary of Poitiers, c.360)

Augustine of Hippo Sermon on Psalm 32:

For singers, either in the harvest, or in the vineyard, or in any other busy work, after they have begun in the words of their hymns to exult and rejoice, being as it were filled with so great joy, that they cannot express it in words, then turn from actual words, and proceed to sounds of jubilation. The jubilee is a sound signifying that the heart laboureth with that which it cannot utter…that the heart may rejoice without words, and the boundless extent of joy may have no limits of syllables. (Augustine of Hippo, c.354-c.430)

From New Advent:newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm

In post-Biblical times St. Irenæus tells us that “many” of his contemporaries were heard “speaking through the Spirit in all kinds (pantodapais) of tongues” (“Contra haer.”, V, vii; Eusebius, Church History V.7). St. Francis Xavier is said to have preached in tongues unknown to him and St. Vincent Ferrer while using his native tongue was understood in others. From this last phenomenon Biblical glossolaly differs in being what St. Gregory Nazianzen points out as a marvel of speaking and not of hearing. Exegetes observe too that it was never used for preaching, although Sts. Augustine and Thomas seem to have overlooked this detail.

 

[firstmode]

Tertullian in an anti-heretical apologetic alludes to instances of the ‘interpretation of tongues’ as one among several examples of ‘spiritual gifts’ common enough in his day to be easily encountered and provide evidence that God was at work in the church: (Tertullian mentions he uses all the gifts described in his statement)

Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer – only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from amongst those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God. Here, then, is my frank avowal for any one who cares to require it. (Tertullian, c.207)

*Chrysostom saw that they were not happening anymore except in obscure and rare places, it is not stating that they are gone, but that it was very rare for anyone to speak in tongues around his time:
*
This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more? (Chrysostom, 344-407)

 

[Cluny]

To answer your question: no, not in the sense of modern Pentecostals and charismatics.

 

[firstmode]

Thanks for the response.

The practices in the book of Acts, the book of 1 Corinthians, and the writings of the early church fathers are spot on for what happens in an Assemblies of God church.

We are not like the United Pentecostal church though, we are trinitarian and are extremely orderly in our services, just as Paul told us to be. Maybe it is just your experiences that you have had with Pentecostals. But check out Assemblies of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world with over 50 million members, they probably do things not as you expect them to do.

 

[juliamajor]

Thanks for the response.

The practices in the book of Acts, the book of 1 Corinthians, and the writings of the early church fathers are spot on for what happens in an Assemblies of God church.

We are not like the United Pentecostal church though, we are trinitarian and are extremely orderly in our services, just as Paul told us to be. Maybe it is just your experiences that you have had with Pentecostals. But check out Assemblies of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world with over 50 million members, they probably do things not as you expect them to do.

I think I’ll pass!

 

[Jean_1958]

Hi Firstmode,

There is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement within the Catholic Church that started about forty years ago. As a teenager in the '70s, I would sometimes attend groups of Catholics who practiced it, but I found that I did not feel comfortable with that type of worship.

The Church does not deny the merits of such worship but it must be done with the supervision of a priest.

Jean

 

[firstmode]

Hi Firstmode,

There is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement within the Catholic Church that started about forty years ago. As a teenager in the '70s, I would sometimes attend groups of Catholics who practiced it, but I found that I did not feel comfortable with that type of worship.

The Church does not deny the merits of such worship but it must be done with the supervision of a priest.

Jean

 

[Hisalone]

To answer your question: no, not in the sense of modern Pentecostals and charismatics.

Can you explain?

 

[Hisalone]

Thanks for the response.

The practices in the book of Acts, the book of 1 Corinthians, and the writings of the early church fathers are spot on for what happens in an Assemblies of God church.

We are not like the United Pentecostal church though, we are trinitarian and are extremely orderly in our services, just as Paul told us to be. Maybe it is just your experiences that you have had with Pentecostals. But check out Assemblies of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world with over 50 million members, they probably do things not as you expect them to do.

You have pointed out a major reason why the RCC is unlike the 1st century church and can not claim an unbroken legacy from apostolic times.

 

[firstmode]

1st century

Writers of the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas [two inspirational books used widely in the early church] witness so much charismatic activity they find it necessary to distinguish between true and false prophets. At about the same time, the writer of Pseudo-Barnabas suggests prophetic ministry is normative in the church.

2nd century

[Christian apologist] Justin Martyr argues that God has withdrawn the Spirit of prophecy and miracles from the Jews and has transferred it to the church as proof of her continued divine favor.

Irenaeus of Lyon describes the gifts of prophecy, discernment of spirits, and exorcism in his Gallic church, and even mentions that individuals have been raised from the dead. He warns against certain false Gnostics who fabricate spiritual gifts to win favor with the naïve.

3rd century

Origen of Alexandria says healings, exorcisms, and validating signs and wonders continue to be experienced in the church. Just as miracles and wonders added to the credibility of 1st-century apostles, so they continue to draw unbelievers into the Christian fold."

4th century
Augustine [of Hippo], in The City of God, reports contemporary divine healings and other miracles. These he links directly to the conversion of pagans.

 

[firstmode]

In the Middle Ages men of the Church and others recognized the charism gift of speaking in tongues as having the characteristics mainly of xenolalia and jubilation. It was believed the gift principally helped to preach to people in foreign languages. St. Romuald, founder of the Camaldolese monks, is said to have received the “tongues of angels” before he died. The gift is mentioned in the writings and teaching of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, the founder of the Cistercian Order. Also, it was in the Franciscan Order as the jubilation possessed by St. Francis. The latter is commentated upon by Eddie Ensley in his Sounds of Wonder, (New York, Paulist Press, 1977). “in early Franciscan literature actual sounds of certain jubilations are written out, and these descriptions are strikingly similar to descriptions of modern day glossolalia of the Charismatic Renewal.”

The great Scholastic theologian of the 13th century St. Thomas Aquinas definitively describes this jubilation, “an unspeakable joy, which cannot be expressed. The reason that this joy cannot be expressed in words is that it is beyond comprehension”

Others did use the gift as xenolalia such as St. Anthony the Wonder-Worker of Padua, (1195-1231), a Franciscan, Fernando de Bouillon of Lisbon, who was well known for his brilliant and poetic sermons which he gave in several languages while journeying across Italy and France. It is further recorded that St. Dominic Guzman, a Spaniard and founder of the Order of Preachers, instantly knew German when required to speak to seminarians in Germany. Another Spanish Dominican, St. Vincent Ferrer, was to have possessed the gift and converted thousands in western European countries.

St. Francis Xavier, a participant in founding the Society of Jesus, is said to have received the gift of tongues by which he performed numerous of miracles, healing the sick, and even raising the dead. He later traveled to India, Japan, and China preaching the gospel. It is thought he spoke in Spanish, but people heard him in their own languages.

St. Teresa of Avila, one of the great mystic writers of the 16th century, wrote of jubilation. She often participated in jubilation through tongues as was as dance and song. Along with her Carmalite sisters she participated in liturgical celebrations, in which she improvised melodies by which to praise God. She described the “supernatural benefit from the manifestation of this charism of praise as one that lifts the soul into the joy of God and is not forgotten but `impressed upon the imagination.’” Sometimes such jubilation would bring on a spiritual inebriation which lasted the entire day.

 

[cathopologist]

The quoted sources are mainly from two main anti-Catholic websites:
(article on OP’s subject derived from here - cephasministry.com/charismatics_2.html )
Virulent attacks on the Catholic Church found here:
catholic.cephasministry.com/the_truth_about_catholicism.html

The other source is from an occult website:
themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/charismatics_the.html
About Mystica:
themystica.com/mystica/info/about.htm

So yes Hisalone, i can see why you take sides with anyone non-Catholic. I suppose you think occultists and anti-Christians are the true heirs of the 1st century Church, eh?

 

[Hisalone]

The quoted sources are mainly from two main anti-Catholic websites:
(article on OP’s subject derived from here - cephasministry.com/charismatics_2.html )
Virulent attacks on the Catholic Church found here:
catholic.cephasministry.com/the_truth_about_catholicism.html

The other source is from an occult website:
themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/charismatics_the.html
About Mystica:
themystica.com/mystica/info/about.htm

So yes Hisalone, i can see why you take sides with anyone non-Catholic. I suppose you think occultists and anti-Christians are the true heirs of the 1st century Church, eh?

The articles posted were in fact rather kind to the RCC. Or did you read them? obviously you are not interested in truth.

 

[cathopologist]

The articles posted were in fact rather kind to the RCC. Or did you read them? obviously you are not interested in truth.

I read them. I know how to distinguish the Truth from fabricated truths. Can you?

 

[firstmode]

What about the direct quotes from the Fathers Themselves?

I did not even tough on the subject of prophecy, spiritual warfare, exorcism, etc, which are all subjects mentioned by the early church fathers.

 

[cathopologist]

What about the direct quotes from the Fathers Themselves?

I did not even tough on the subject of prophecy, spiritual warfare, exorcism, etc, which are all subjects mentioned by the early church fathers.

Even if you quoted from authentic sources, doesn’t make it so. You put your twist on words and make it seem as though what Newadvent or any other Catholic site agrees with your agenda. I can do the same for the AoG and make it look as though the AoG is in agreement with occultism.

 

[Hisalone]

I read them. I know how to distinguish the Truth from fabricated truths. Can you?

When you go to mass, how many of the charismatic gifts are in operation? The 1st century church had them all in operation. Your claim to know the truth proves false.

 

[cathopologist]

When you go to mass, how many of the charismatic gifts are in operation? The 1st century church had them all in operation. Your claim to know the truth proves false.

When i go to Mass, people don’t fall on the floor and pretend to be ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’. I’ve seen that fiasco in numerous non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches. So yes, i can spot a false church when i am in one.

 

[firstmode]

When i go to Mass, people don’t fall on the floor and pretend to be ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’. I’ve seen that fiasco in numerous non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches. So yes, i can spot a false church when i am in one.

I have only seen 2 people drop to their backs in church before, both were being prayed for with the laying on of hands for a healing.

2 people in 6 years between about 7 Assemblies of God Churches.

I think you guys have some kind of distorted view about what happens in the “Common” Pentecostal Church.

 

[firstmode]

I have only seen 2 people drop to their backs in church before, both were being prayed for with the laying on of hands for a healing.

2 people in 6 years between about 7 Assemblies of God Churches.

I think you guys have some kind of distorted view about what happens in the “Common” Pentecostal Church.

I have to add, I also spent time in 2 Non-denominational Pentecostal churches and 1 Church of God (Cleveland, TN) Pentecostal church.

2 People…