Early Church Fathers - Lets be honest

[CWBetts]

You have ignored every point that has been made contrary to this.
If you so chose to live in fantasy that is your decision but dont teach others.

Qoting St. Jerome over and over again from before the councils does not change the fact that he submitted to the Church afterwards. I have said this to you many times on many threads: Learn Church history. You are embarrassing yourself youth your lack of knowledge.

 

[greggy53]

It is undenialbly obvious that Catholics have tried to re write history with regards to the cannon.
In my public library there is the multi volume Catholic encyclopedia
under cannon there is this:

**“According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the Biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church (at the Council of Trent). **Before that time there was some doubt about the canonicity of certain Biblical books, i.e., about their belonging to the canon.”

you owe SemperReformada an apology.

Nonsense, I have posted it several times before. The 7 books were included in the cannon in 382 AD at the council of Rome. They were never removed by any subsequent council, and or decree. they were only removed from Protestant Bible in the 19th century.

 

[Contarini]

Qoting St. Jerome over and over again from before the councils does not change the fact that he submitted to the Church afterwards.

That’s not entirely convincing. The quote from the CE in post 77 indicates that many Western theologians continued to be influenced by St. Jerome’s opinion.

The CE recognizes that there seems to have been a certain disconnect between learned opinion, which tended to give the deuteros a lesser role, and the practice of the Church. One of the reasons that this disconnect wasn’t more problematic, I think, was that in practice one never treats all the books of the Bible equally. Some are more likely to be commented on, preached on, used liturgically and devotionally, etc. So in practice the books were included in the canon but not emphasized as much as some others.

That being said, it seems to me on this as on other grounds that the Reformation saw the triumph of academic opinion as the basis for the Christian faith. By rejecting the authority of the hierarchy, the Reformers burst asunder the bonds that linked popular piety with learned speculation, and created a disjunction that has plagued Protestantism ever since.

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You have some truth and some error.

• Melito of Sardis rejected most of if not all of the deuteros. There seems to be some controversy as to what book Melito means when he refers to the Wisdom of Solomon.
• Augustine accepted the deuteros but recognized that the North African councils were only provincial.
• There are no quotes whatsoever in the NT that would lead anyone to believe the deutero’s were in fact thought to be inspired. Remember simple quotation means nothing since Paul quotes from sources no Christian would accept as inspired. If it were that simple there would be no controversy.
• In the period between the North African councils and the council of Trent you will find some who accept the deutero’s and some who reject them. Well before Luther, Calvin or any other reformer there is a current in the church hostile to the deutero’s or at least hostile to including them in the canon. Again, go to newadvent.org and take a look at the section on the OT canon.

Thank God a reasonable post. I mentioned Mileto of Sardis to indicate that the canon listing of books began before the councils canonized them officially. What never gets mentioned on the topic of the bible books is that the Catholic Church canonized the books for her Liturgy, and removed many uninspired books that were being used in the Catholic liturgies. When the persecution of the Catholic church was lifted, the Catholic church was able to breathe and orgainize the liturgy from underground and remove the questionable books from her Liturgies. Please see the following canon when the Catholic Church was under persecution, before she counciled to canonized the bible books for Her liturgies.

Melito, Bishop of Sardis c. 170 Produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list uses the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus Esther.

Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons 185 Developed a New Testament Canon (without 3 John, James or 2 Peter)
c. 200 Muratorian Fragment contained canon similar to Trent

Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea c. 325 History of the Church written; referred to James, Jude,2 Peter, and 2 and 3 John as “disputed, yet similar to most.”

Council of Laodicea c. 360 List of books similar to Trent’s canon.

The New Testament contains at least 300 guotes from the Deuterocanonical books this is a fact.

There is no question about the ongoing dispute over the Deutero books. The fact remains is that the Popes, Church councils never removed them once these disputed books were canonized. Now Trent has settled the arguments over the Deutero books once and for all.

Peace be with you

 

[Contarini]

The New Testament contains at least 300 guotes from the Deuterocanonical books this is a fact.

No, it’s not. I can accept that there are that many possible echoes or allusions, but it’s dubious whether there is even a single direct quotation, and there are certainly no quotes by name. (Enoch is quoted in Jude and another clearly noncanonical book alluded to, but that doesn’t really help much.)

Edwin

 

[Hisalone]

Qoting St. Jerome over and over again from before the councils does not change the fact that he submitted to the Church afterwards. I have said this to you many times on many threads: Learn Church history. You are embarrassing yourself youth your lack of knowledge.

I have yet to quote Jerome, you have yet to address aour points.
Who has no credibilbity?

 

[Hisalone]

No, it’s not. I can accept that there are that many possible echoes or allusions, but.it’s dubious whether there is even a single direct quotation, and there are certainly no quotes by name. (Enoch is quoted in Jude and another clearly noncanonical book alluded to, but that doesn’t really help much.)

Edwin

Catholics do not ignore this post address it.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Catholics do not ignore this post address it.

No need to ignore it.

He is correct.

However, there are other Old Testament books that are not quoted in the new testament.

The multiple allusions to the deuteros are relevant and convincing.

Christian history supports the Catholic canon.

Luther wanted scripture to conform to his doctrines, and he attempted to negate or minimize the importance of some New Testament books as well as eliminate the deuterocanonicals.

 

[ccolley2]

That’s not entirely convincing. The quote from the CE in post 77 indicates that many Western theologians continued to be influenced by St. Jerome’s opinion.

The CE recognizes that there seems to have been a certain disconnect between learned opinion, which tended to give the deuteros a lesser role, and the practice of the Church. One of the reasons that this disconnect wasn’t more problematic, I think, was that in practice one never treats all the books of the Bible equally. Some are more likely to be commented on, preached on, used liturgically and devotionally, etc. So in practice the books were included in the canon but not emphasized as much as some others.

That being said, it seems to me on this as on other grounds that the Reformation saw the triumph of academic opinion as the basis for the Christian faith. By rejecting the authority of the hierarchy, the Reformers burst asunder the bonds that linked popular piety with learned speculation, and created a disjunction that has plagued Protestantism ever since.

Edwin

The key word here is “opinion”…St.Jerome, while a great scholar and theologian, is NOT infallible.
All this proves is that Scholars and Theologians disagree with each other …so what else is new? This is precisely the reason why St. Augustine wanted to send the Council of Carthage’s decision to Rome for approval. Once the Pope has spoken, then debate “officially” ends…some theologians just like to debate…
There was NO “official” disagreement about the canon for 1600 years after Carthage…Until Martin Luther. If there were ANY serious disagreements then that would have been cause for a schism of the church, and no such schism occurred until…Martin Luther.

Why do you argue that Catholics are soooooooo wrong about the canon of the OT, yet, you do not disagree with the canon of the NT? Why do you trust the Church with the one and not the other???
CC

 

[SemperReformada]

There is no question about the ongoing dispute over the Deutero books. The fact remains is that the Popes, Church councils never removed them once these disputed books were canonized. Now Trent has settled the arguments over the Deutero books once and for all.

Peace be with you

I agreee with your post.

My only beef is with those who claim that there was never a doubt about the inspiration or canonocity of the deutero’s until the reformation.

 

[SemperReformada]

There was NO “official” disagreement about the canon for 1600 years after Carthage…

What would you call “official” disagreement?

 

[Mad_Amos]

An additional observation:

The Septuagint included the Deuterocanon, whereas the Masoretic Text did not. The former bears the more Christian translation of Psalm 22 (i.e. “they have pierced My Hands and Feet…”) while the latter opts for a version friendlier to Pharisaic Judaism (i.e. “like a lion, my hands and feet”).

Ideological bias aside, there is another item worthy of consideration in evaluating the above; the fact that the rendering of Psalm 22 as contained within the Dead Sea Scrolls is in agreement with the LXX rather than the MT.

In short, if one were to cite Psalm 22 as a proof-text in support of Christian Messianic claims, he would do well to be mindful in his choice of translation.

 

[youngsaint]

“The only thing necessary to becomming a saint is to desire it.” Thomas Merton
I’ve noticed it isn’t SAINT Thomas Merton.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I agreee with your post.

My only beef is with those who claim that there was never a doubt about the inspiration or canonocity of the deutero’s until the reformation.

There was also doubt about some New Testament books, and other books that were excluded, like Clements letter to the Corinthians, for example.

However, it was never left up to individuals to decide the Canon. This was always a process undertaken by the Church.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No, it’s not. I can accept that there are that many possible echoes or allusions, but it’s dubious whether there is even a single direct quotation, and there are certainly no quotes by name. (Enoch is quoted in Jude and another clearly noncanonical book alluded to, but that doesn’t really help much.)

Edwin

Well Contarini, I dont think your opinion or my opinion matters about how the New Testament writers and Apostles taught their way of Christianity using the 7 deutero books which the Protestants removed from the already canonized bible. Which are 1and2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Tobit, Sirach, Baruch and Judith. Before giving a rejection to the New Testament writers maybe read the following scriptures that reference the Deutero books. I place the facts before you.
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11 Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11 Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15 James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4 James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
2 Timothy James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26 James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1 James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3 James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16 James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60 James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
Titus James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30 James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6 James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
Hebrews James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17 James 5:3 Judith 16:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30 James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1 1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1 1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52 1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20 1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2 1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42 2 Peter
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14 2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23 2 Peter
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10 2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6 Daniel 13:46 Matthew 27:24
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19 Daniel 13:46 Acts 20:26
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10 Daniel 14:18, 41 Acts 19:28

1 John Baruch
1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72 Baruch 1:11s 1 Timothy 2:2
Baruch 3:29 John 3:13
Jude Baruch 3:29 Romans 10:6
Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1 Baruch 4:1 Matthew 5:18
Baruch 4:7 1 Corinthians 10:20
Revelation Baruch 4:35 Revelation 18:2
Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1 Baruch 4:37 Matthew 8:11
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14 Baruch 4:37 Luke 13:29
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15] Baruch 5:72 1 John 5:21
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1 Sirach
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14 Sirach 1:8 Revelation 5:7
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8 Sirach 1:10 1 Corinthians 2:9
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7 Sirach 1:24s Colossians 2:3
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14 Sirach 1:30 Acts 13:10
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15 Sirach 2:1 James 1:2
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12 Sirach 2:2 Hebrews 11:27
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29 Sirach 2:5 1 Peter 1:7
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22 Sirach 2:18 Mark 9:31
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9 Sirach 3:17 James 1:21
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc. Sirach 3:17 James 3:13
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Sirach 4:1 Mark 10:18
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4 Sirach 4:27 Romans 13:1
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35 Sirach 2:18 Mark 9:31
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18 Sirach 3:17 James 1:21
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25 Sirach 3:17 James 3:13
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8 Sirach 4:1 Mark 10:18
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4 Sirach 4:31 Acts 20:35
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12 Sirach 5:3 1 Thessalonians 4:6
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17 Sirach 5:9 Ephesians 4:14
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4 Sirach 5:11 James 1:19
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12 Sirach 5:13 James 3:6
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17 Sirach 5:13 James 3:10
Sirach 6:19 1 Corinthians 9:19
Sirach 6:24s Matthew 11:29
Sirach 6:28s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 28:18 Luke 21:24
Sirach 7:14 Matthew 6:7 Sirach 29:10 James 5:3
Sirach 7:32-35 Matthew 25:36 Sirach 29:10s Matthew 6:20
Sirach 7:34 Romans 12:15 Sirach 29:14ss Hebrews 7:22
Sirach 9:8 Matthew 5:28 Sirach 31:15 Matthew 7:12
Sirach 10:14 Luke 1:52 Sirach 32:23 1 Corinthians 7:19
Sirach 10:20s Romans 11:15 Sirach 33:1 Matthew 6:13
Sirach 11:19 Luke 10:19 Sirach 33:19 Hebrews 13:7
Sirach 13:17 Matthew 10:16 Sirach 35:3 2 Timothy 2:19
Sirach 14:1 James 3:2 Sirach 35:6 Philippians 4:18
Sirach 14:10 Matthew 6:23 Sirach 35:12s Acts 10:34
Sirach 15:11-20 James 1:13 Sirach 35:12s Romans 2:11
Sirach 16:12 1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 35:13 Galatians 2:6
Sirach 16:12 Revelation 20:12s Sirach 35:19 2 Peter 3:9
Sirach 16:21 John 3:8 Sirach 35:22 Matthew 16:27
Sirach 17:3 1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 35:22 Luke 18:7
Sirach 17:17 Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 36:7 Acts 2:11
Sirach 17:26 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 36:18 1 Corinthians 6:13
Sirach 18:1 Revelation 1:18 Sirach 36:20 Romans 15:8
Sirach 18:1 Revelation 4:11 Sirach 37:2 Matthew 26:38
Sirach 18:10 2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 37:2 Mark 14:34
Sirach 18:11 Romans 5:5 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 6:12
Sirach 19:26 Acts 12:10 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 10:23
Sirach 20:30s Matthew 13:44 Sirach 39:29 Revelation 8:7
Sirach 23:1, 4 Matthew 6:9 Sirach 40:15 Matthew 12:5
Sirach 23:1, 4 James 3:9 Sirach 40:15 Mark 4:5
Sirach 23:10v1 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 44:12 Romans 9:4
Sirach 23:17 1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 44:16 Hebrews 11:5
Sirach 24:19 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 44:18 etc. Revelation 9:4
Sirach 24:21 John 6:35 Sirach 44:19 John 8:53
Sirach 24:32 Acts 2:39 Sirach 44:19 Romans 4:17
Sirach 24:40, 43[30s] John 7:38 Sirach 44:20 Hebrews 11:17
Sirach 25:7-12 Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 40:15 Matthew 12:5
Sirach 25:23 Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 40:15 Mark 4:5
Sirach 26:14 Mark 8:37 Sirach 44:12 Romans 9:4
Sirach 27:6 Matthew 7:16 Sirach 44:16 Hebrews 11:5
Sirach 27:8 Romans 9:31 Sirach 44:18 etc. Revelation 9:4
Sirach 28:2 Matthew 6:12 Sirach 44:19 John 8:53
Sirach 28:7 Acts 17:30 Sirach 44:19 Romans 4:17
Sirach 28:12 James 3:10 Sirach 44:20 Hebrews 11:17

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;
Sirach 44:21 Romans 4:13 Wisdom 3:7 Luke 19:44
Sirach 45:1 Ephesians 1:6 Wisdom 3:8 1 Corinthians 6:2
Sirach 46:5 1 Timothy 6:15 Wisdom 3:9 John 15:9s
Sirach 46:13 Ephesians 1:6 Wisdom 3:17 Acts 19:27
Sirach 48:5 Luke 7:22 Wisdom 3:18 1 Thessalonians 4:13
Sirach 48:10 Matthew 11:14 Wisdom 4:2 1 Corinthians 9:25
Sirach 48:10 Matthew 17:11 Wisdom 4:10 Hebrews 11:5
Sirach 48:10 Luke 1:17 Wisdom 4:19 Acts 1:18
Sirach 48:10 Luke 9:8 Wisdom 5:4 John 10:20
Sirach 48:12 Acts 2:4 Wisdom 5:5 Acts 20:32
Sirach 48:21 Acts 12:23 Wisdom 5:5 Acts 26:18
Sirach 48:24 Matthew 5:4 Wisdom 5:6 2 Peter 2:2
Sirach 50:20s Luke 24:50 Wisdom 5:16 2 Timothy 4:8
Sirach 50:22 Luke 24:53 Wisdom 5:17 Ephesians 6:12
Sirach 50:25s John 4:9 Wisdom 5:18 Ephesians 6:14
Sirach 51:1 Matthew 11:25 Wisdom 5:18 1 Thessalonians 5:8
Sirach 51:1 Luke 10:21 Wisdom 5:19, 21 Ephesians 6:16
Sirach 51:23 Matthew 11:28 Wisdom 5:22 Luke 21:25
Sirach 51:26s Matthew 11:29 Wisdom 6:3s Romans 13:1
Wisdom Wisdom 6:7 Acts 10:36
Wisdom 1:6 Titus 3:4 Wisdom 6:18 John 14:15
Wisdom 1:6 1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 6.18 Romans 13.10
Wisdom 1:11 James 4:11 Wisdom 7:1 Acts 10:26
Wisdom 1:14 Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 7:3 Acts 14:15
Wisdom 2:5s 1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 7:7 Ephesians 1:17
Wisdom 2:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 7:11 Matthew 6:33
Wisdom 2:11 Romans 9:31 Wisdom 7:18 Acts 17:26
Wisdom 2:12 James 5:6 Wisdom 7:22-30 Hebrews 4:12
Wisdom 2:13 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 7:23 Philippians 4:13
Wisdom 2:16 John 5:18 Wisdom 7:24s 1 Corinthians 1:24
Wisdom 2:17 Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 7:25s Hebrews 1:3
Wisdom 2:17s Mark 15:29 Wisdom 7:27 James 2:23
Wisdom 2:18-20 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 8:3 etc. Acts 10:36
Wisdom 2:19 Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 8:8 John 4:48
Wisdom 2:19 James 5:6 Wisdom 8:8 1 Thessalonians 5:1
Wisdom 2:22 Mark 4:11 Wisdom 9:1 John 1:3
Wisdom 2:23 1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 9.1 Acts 17.24, 25
Wisdom 2:24 John 8:44 Wisdom 9:3 Ephesians 4:24
Wisdom 2:24 Romans 5:12 Wisdom 9:9 Acts 17:24
Wisdom 3:4s James 1:2 Wisdom 9:13 1 Corinthians 2:16
Wisdom 9:15 2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 18.1 Acts 22.9
Wisdom 9:16 John 3:12 Wisdom 18:14 Revelation 8:1
Wisdom 10:6 2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 18:14s 1 Thessalonians 5:2
Wisdom 10:16 2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 18:15s John 3:12
Wisdom 10:17 Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 18.15s Hebrews 4.12
Wisdom 11:10 1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 18:16 [15] Revelation 2:12
Wisdom 11:15 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 18:25 Hebrews 11:28
Wisdom 11:23 Romans 2:4 Wisdom 19:7s 1 Corinthians 10:1
Wisdom 12:10 Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 19:10 Acts 13:17
Wisdom 12:12 Romans 9:19 Tobit 2:2 Luke 14:13
Wisdom 12:13 1 Peter 5:7 Tobit 3:17 Luke 15:12
Wisdom 12:19 Acts 11:18 Tobit 4:3 Matthew 8:21
Wisdom 12:24 Romans 1:23 Tobit 4:6 John 3:32
Wisdom 13-15 Romans 1:19-32 Tobit 4:10 James 2:13
Wisdom 13:1 Romans 1:21 Tobit 4:14 James 5:4
Wisdom 13.1 1 Corinthians 15.34 Tobit 4:15 Matthew 7:12
Wisdom 13.1 Hebrews 11.10 Tobit 4:17 Matthew 25:35
Wisdom 13:6 Acts 17:27 Tobit 5:15 Matthew 20:2
Wisdom 13:10 Acts 17:29 Tobit 5:19 1 Corinthians 4:13
Wisdom 14:1 Jude 13 Tobit 7:10 Luke 12:19
Wisdom 14:20 Acts 17:23 Tobit 7:17 Matthew 11:25
Wisdom 15:1 Luke 6:35 Tobit 7:17 Luke 10:17
Wisdom 15:3 John 17:3 Tobit 7:17 Acts 17:24
Wisdom 15:7 Romans 9:21 Tobit 11:9 Luke 2:29
Wisdom 15:8 Luke 12:20 Tobit 12:8 Acts 10:2
Wisdom 15:11 John 20:22 Tobit 12:12 Revelation 8:3
Wisdom 15:17 Acts 17:23 Tobit 12:15 Matthew 18:10
Wisdom 16:6 1 Corinthians 11:24 Tobit 12:15 Luke 1:19
Wisdom 16:9 Revelation 9:3 Tobit 12:15 Revelation 8:2
Wisdom 16:13 Matthew 16:18 Tobit 13:7, 11 1 Timothy 1:17
Wisdom 16.13 Romans 10.7 Tobit 13:17 Revelation 21:19s
Wisdom 16:22 Revelation 8:7 Tobit 13:18 Revelation 19:1
Wisdom 16:26 Matthew 4:4 Tobit 14:4 Matthew 23:38
Wisdom 17:1 Romans 11:33 Tobit 14:4 Luke 13:25
Wisdom 17:2 Matthew 22:13 Tobit 14:5 Mark 1:15
Wisdom 17:11 Romans 2:15 Tobit 14:5 Luke 21:24
Wisdom 17:14 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Tobit 14:5 Galatians 4:4
Wisdom 17:15 Mark 6:49
Wisdom 17:17 Galatians 6:1
Wisdom 18:1 Acts 9:7

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;
Judith 4:9 Acts 12:5 2 Maccabees 1:4 Acts 16:14
Judith 8:6 Luke 2:37 2 Maccabees 1:10 Acts 5:21
Judith 8:26 Acts 15:4 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc. 1 Peter 4:19
Judith 8:35 Mark 5:34 2 Maccabees 1:27 James 1:1
Judith 9:12 Acts 4:24 2 Maccabees 2:4 Romans 11:4
Judith 10:13 Acts 26:25 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 2:17
Judith 11:19 Matthew 9:36 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 11:19
Judith 12:8 1 Thessalonians 3:11 2 Maccabees 2:7 2 Thessalonians 2:1
Judith 13:18 Luke 1:42 2 Maccabees 3:11 1 Timothy 2:2
Judith 14:16s Acts 14:14 2 Maccabees 3:24 Hebrews 12:9
Judith 16:17 Matthew 11:22 2 Maccabees 3:24-40 Acts 9:1-29
Judith 16:17 Mark 9:48 2 Maccabees 3:25 Revelation 19:11
Judith 16:17 Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 3:26 Luke 24:4
Judith 16:17 James 5:3 2 Maccabees 3:26 Acts 1:10
1 Maccabees 2 Maccabees 3:30 Titus 2:11
1 Maccabees 1:54 Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 3:34 Luke 24:31
1 Maccabees 2:21 Matthew 16:22 2 Maccabees 4:1 Hebrews 11:10
1 Maccabees 2:28 Matthew 24:16 2 Maccabees 4:6 Acts 24:2
1 Maccabees 2:52 Hebrews 11:17
1 Maccabees 2:60 2 Timothy 4:17 2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10
1 Maccabees 3:6 Luke 13:27
Judith 16:17 James 5:3 1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72
1 Maccabees 3:49 Acts 21:26
1 Maccabees 3:60 Matthew 6:10 Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1
1 Maccabees 4:59 John 10:22
1 Maccabees 5:15 Matthew 4:15
1 Maccabees 7:41 Acts 12:23
1 Maccabees 8:16 James 4:2
1 Maccabees 9:39 John 3:28
1 Maccabees 10:25 Acts 10:22
1 Maccabees 10:29 [30] Luke 15:12
1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc. Acts 10:22
1 Maccabees 12:6 Acts 5:12
1 Maccabees 12:9 Romans 15:4
1 Maccabees 12:17 Matthew 9:38
1 Maccabees 13:2 Hebrews 12:21
1 Maccabees 14:41 Hebrews 5:6
1 Maccabees 15:21 Acts 9:2

2 Maccabees 4:32 Acts 5:2 1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1
2 Maccabees 6:4 Romans 1:28
2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42 Hebrews 11:35 2 Corinthians
2 Maccabees 6:23 Romans 9:4 2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Maccabees 7:19 Acts 5:39 2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16
2 Maccabees 8:17 Matthew 24:15
2 Maccabees 9:9 Acts 12:23 Galatians
2 Maccabees 10:3 Matthew 12:4 Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
2 Maccabees 10:7 Revelation 7:9 Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
2 Maccabees 11:8 Acts 10:30 Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17
2 Maccabees 11:8 Revelation 19:11
2 Maccabees 12:15 1 Timothy 6:15 Ephesians
2 Maccabees 12:43s 1 Corinthians 15:29 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
2 Maccabees 13:4 1 Timothy 6:15 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 17:14 Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 19:16 Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
2 Maccabees 13:14 Hebrews 12:4 Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
2 Maccabees 13:14 Revelation 2:10 Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
1 Corinthians Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21
1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13 Philippians
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10 Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19 Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10 Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28 Colossians
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18 Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23 1 Thessalonians
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19 1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2 1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s 1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7 1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28 1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23 1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s 2 Thessalonians
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s 2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7
1 Timothy Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11 Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11 Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15 James
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4 James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
2 Timothy James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26 James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1 James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3 James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16 James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60 James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
Titus James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30 James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6 James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
Hebrews James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17 James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s James 5:3 Judith 16:17
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30 James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41 James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1 1 Peter
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1 1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52 1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20 1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2 1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25 1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14 2 Peter
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24 2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23 2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
Revelation
Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Catholics do not ignore this post address it.

Hisalone, this Catholic has provided biblical proof to the canon books of the bible which Protestants rejected, when the New Testament writers taught from the wisdom of these God breathed books of the bible.

These books were already contained in the Hebrew/Greek translation the “Septuagint” which was in existance during Jesus and the apostles time when they walked the earth, long before the Apostolic Tradition and teachings were placed in the New Testament.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I agreee with your post.

My only beef is with those who claim that there was never a doubt about the inspiration or canonocity of the deutero’s until the reformation.

Depends on the perspective one takes as authoritative. IF its the Church council you look to which canonized the bible as authority, these books always remained. IF you look to the Theologians and biblical scholars like St. Jerome who argued placing the Deutero books in the canon because he had no Hebrew counterparts to the Greek to authenticate them, which was part of the scrutiny to meet the canon. The Pope instructed St. Jerome to include them in his “Vulgate” translation, and St. Jerome complied to his obedience to the Pope. The books have been labeled Duetero, because they came to us in the second “Duetero” language, although the Catholic saints labeled them Duetero because they continued to be disputed over again.

What needs to be stated here is that the Catholic Church canonized these Deutero books long before “Trent” or the reformation.

It needs to be stated today that the argument used to remove them has been settled, because in 1947 the dead sea scrolls proved their authenticity from antiquity when their Hebrew counterparts surfaced, confirming the Popes and Church council decisions to cannonize them and never removed the disputed books.

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone, this Catholic has provided biblical proof to the canon books of the bible which Protestants rejected, when the New Testament writers taught from the wisdom of these God breathed books of the bible.

These books were already contained in the Hebrew/Greek translation the “Septuagint” which was in existance during Jesus and the apostles time when they walked the earth, long before the Apostolic Tradition and teachings were placed in the New Testament.

No Gabe you have not done what was asked.
What you have done was copied and pasted a list of someone who has a very vivid imagination.

I dont have time to go through each and every citation you have given so Ill pick one the last.

Rev 21: 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

Tobit 13: 17 Your streets will be paved with rubies and precious jewels.

Your assertion does not hold up.
Also what do you do besides ignore the point that the NT quotes books that no one claims to be inspired?

As your best champion Jerome would say the Apocrapha is usefull but not inspired. Why do you ignore Jeromes preface which he clearly states the Apocrapha is not inspired.