Early Mass compared to Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses

  • Thread starter Thread starter anonymous51
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I do not mean this as any kind of put down of you or any group of people, but noting that many who express a strong affinity for things of the past never actually experienced them, I’ve often wondered if this occurs with a similar frequency among others in non-religious matters and/or in other societies. Studies must have been about this somewhere but I just haven’t located anything but “pop psychology” yet. Might make for an interesting discussion some day.

(Apologies that I still haven’t figured out to revise a post)
 
I’d like your source for “many.” I was there before and after Vatican II. There’s good scholarship out there but this is about faith and society back then and now. I have other ‘reliable witnesses.’ And it doesn’t take someone with a History degree to chart the downward path. Not all succumbed but too many. God still hears them. He hears all of us.
 
I’I’m simply going by my personal observations, i.e conversations with younger people in my very large parish as well as the countless hours I’ve hung out here on the old and new CAF over the past nine years.
 
babochka said:
The earliest traditions were either with the priest facing east, or facing the Temple of Solomon. In the case of early western churches, with the aspe in the west, “ad orientem” meant the same thing as “versus populum”, not the opposite.

I’ve was not about the orientation of the churches, I’m talking about the orientation of the priest in prayer.
Click to expand...
I was talking about the orientation of the priest in prayer.
 
felsguy said:
I’ve often wondered if this occurs with a similar frequency among others in non-religious matters and/or in other societies.
Click to expand...
Why yes, I am railway enthusiast and steam locomotives still have a huge following even though many were not alive when they ruled the rails. The last CPR steam locomotive ran past my home in April 1960. I was 2 years old then so I don’t remember them although my late dad said he took me to the station (Montreal West) which was just down the block to see them. The only ones I’ve had direct experience with are preserved ones being used on enthusiast excursions or relegated to museums but I am still fascinated with them and even have a few HO scale models of them.

They’re kind of like the EF of the railway world: lovingly preserved and approached with reverence by enthusiasts, while in reality when they ruled, they were usually fairly grimy and especially in the last years, not in the greatest repair. And I hear stories (from one poster here) of hurried EF low Masses presided by an alcoholic and usually drunk priest, something you’d never see among the main EF Mass preservationists such as the FSSP or ICK.

I sing in a Gregorian schola and we rotate around the parishes of our small city. We even have “groupies” who know where we’re going to sing and make sure they show up when we do, LOL! And while we have a lot of older fans who miss chant -in fact we brought one old priest who was presiding the Mass we sang at, to tears- many of our fans are younger Catholics who would never have experienced chant unless they went to the local abbey.
 
Last edited:
He is wrong if he says the NO is closer than the TLM, the TLM is called Traditional for a reason, it came way before the Novus Ordo.
 
BridgetN said:
He is wrong if he says the NO is closer than the TLM, the TLM is called Traditional for a reason, it came way before the Novus Ordo.
Click to expand...
But way AFTER the Mass of the early Church, which is what he’s comparing it to.
 
Well, here are two Mass liturgies from the 1st century.

Fathers of the Church

A complete set of documents from the Fathers of the Church: saintly writers of the early centuries whom the Church recognizes as her special witnesses of the faith.
www.catholicculture.org www.catholicculture.org

Fathers of the Church

A complete set of documents from the Fathers of the Church: saintly writers of the early centuries whom the Church recognizes as her special witnesses of the faith.
www.catholicculture.org www.catholicculture.org

Here’s what you have to keep in mind. Yes, the 1970 Mass is closer to the original mass vs. the Tridentine Mass.

However, the Trindentine Mass developed organically over the years. Things were added and modified over the centuries for multiple reasons.

The new Mass was the final effort to restore the Mass as closely as possible to to the first century. This was an effort that the bishops were always working on, esp at/after Vatican I.

As new documents were discovered, they were used in the changes after Vatican II.

Now, one might argue that the changes after Vatican II were not really organic, compared to the changes that lead up to the Tridentine Mass. However, the Vatican II documents that lead to the changes were almost unanimously approved. I believe only 4 bishops voted against it. Practically all the bishops wanted to return the Mass to the way it was in the early Church.

I will post some additional resources to this thread when possible.

God Bless
 
It is historically untenable to say the 1970 Missal is closer to first century liturgy. In any case, Pius XII condemned archaeologism in Mediator Dei.
 
The Church was undermined from within starting in the late 1960s and 1970s. It is very important to remember that social anarchists in the West were heavily promoting ignoring the Church and ignoring parents. They preached their ‘gospel’ of “live with your girlfriend and have sex with her,” “don’t trust anyone over 30,” illegal drugs, especially marijuana, were good; smoke dope, porn is good and marriage is ‘just a piece of paper.’ When the father called his son and asked: “If you love the girl then why don’t you get married?” he got, “You don’t understand, dad. Things are different now. We’ve got freedom.” This from a generation that just several years prior, was very trusting and welcomed the strangers who came into our neighborhoods. We were lied to. The wolves abused our trust. They wore their peace symbols and promised us a “Woodstock Nation,” but that never appeared.

Starting in the late 1960s for a few movies, and 1970 for TV, the Body of Christ in the West was slowly poisoned by the media. It was so gradual that I was watching TV in the 1970s and thought “This isn’t so bad.” Meanwhile, persons unknown were removing communion/altar rails from Churches, statues and even paintings. The tabernacle was moved. Bad catechesis was being taught. It was all coordinated. Adult bookstores, topless bars and strip clubs appeared. Who paid for all that? Who managed all that? Who had access to the funds to build ugly Churches?

https://www.amazon.com/Ugly-as-Sin-Michael-Rose/dp/1933184442
 
Last edited:
What new documents? The changes after Vatican II, aside from the liturgical reform, were not even suggested by Vatican II. Today, Vatican II is falsely being used as a scapegoat for unauthorized changes.
 
edwest211 said:
What new documents? The changes after Vatican II, aside from the liturgical reform, were not even suggested by Vatican II. Today, Vatican II is falsely being used as a scapegoat for unauthorized changes.
Click to expand...
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

Note: I did NOT say that Vatican II designed the liturgy. However, Vatican II approved a committee to work on the restoration of the liturgy.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

NOTE 2: I’m also not referring to post 1970 changes that were not originally authorized and were later approved because people started doing them without permission from Rome.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top