Early Universal Jurisdiction

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holdencaulfield

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I was wondering, did the early Bishop of Rome have Universal Jurisdiction of the Church including the Eastern Church. Some Orthodox have told me otherwise, however I’m looking for an Early Church Father that takes this stance. Thanks. 🙂
 
Check out the epistle of St. Clement, bishop of Rome from the 1st century–he tells the Corinthians it is a sin to disobey him because it is Christ speaking through him–in essence, he is acting like the vicar of Christ.
 
Genesis315 said:
Check out the epistle of St. Clement, bishop of Rome from the 1st century–he tells the Corinthians it is a sin to disobey him because it is Christ speaking through him–in essence, he is acting like the vicar of Christ.
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His first epistle? This One
 
Note Acts 9:32
Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda
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Why was Peter visiting all? Did he exercise some oversight on their activities? He doesn’t seem to have been founding churches like the others.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note Acts 9:32 Why was Peter visiting all? Did he exercise some oversight on their activities? He doesn’t seem to have been founding churches like the others.
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Well yes of course even the Orthodox agree that St. Peter was the leader of the Apostles however they claim that the Church of Rome did not have Jurisdiction over the other Churches i.e. Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem.
 
holdencaulfield said:
I was wondering, did the early Bishop of Rome have Universal Jurisdiction of the Church including the Eastern Church. Some Orthodox have told me otherwise, however I’m looking for an Early Church Father that takes this stance. Thanks. 🙂
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holden, i answered you in other thread (struggling with … .)

“holden, I don’t know your age, but if you’re old enough, do remember when Pope John Paul II died? Newscasters from all over the world, repeated, many times a day “… and he was the 263rd successor of St. Peter.” Secular newscasters. Does that help? Our Lord appointed Peter as head (universal leader) of His church. That line is unbroken.”
 
catharina said:
“holden, I don’t know your age, but if you’re old enough, do remember when Pope John Paul II died? Newscasters from all over the world, repeated, many times a day “… and he was the 263rd successor of St. Peter.” Secular newscasters. Does that help? Our Lord appointed Peter as head (universal leader) of His church. That line is unbroken.”
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Yes. But, then again, “[t]he current Patriarch of Antioch His Beatitude, Ignatius IV (Hazim) is the one hundred and seventieth Patriarch after Saint Peter.”

“The See of Antioch dates back to the days of the Apostles Peter and Paul, founders and patrons of the Church of Antioch, and currently ranks third in honor among the fifteen autocephalous Orthodox Churches. It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). The first Bishop of Antioch was St. Peter the Apostle and the third was St. Ignatius of Antioch…”

Link to original
 
VL93 said:
Yes. But, then again, “[t]he current Patriarch of Antioch His Beatitude, Ignatius IV (Hazim) is the one hundred and seventieth Patriarch after Saint Peter.”

“The See of Antioch dates back to the days of the Apostles Peter and Paul, founders and patrons of the Church of Antioch, and currently ranks third in honor among the fifteen autocephalous Orthodox Churches. It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). The first Bishop of Antioch was St. Peter the Apostle and the third was St. Ignatius of Antioch…”

Link to original
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No doubt you believe as you’ve said - but I as a Roman Catholic accept the teaching that Jesus Christ Alone founded His Church and that He did so upon the rock who is Peter, not upon the duo that is Peter and Paul.
 
catharina said:
No doubt you believe as you’ve said - but I as a Roman Catholic accept the teaching that Jesus Christ Alone founded His Church and that He did so upon the rock who is Peter, not upon the duo that is Peter and Paul.
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Sorry, catharina, I’m afraid you may have understood my intent in posting the quotes from the Antiochian Orthodox web site. Even the Orthodox don’t claim (at least I hope they don’t!) that Christ founded His Church on SS Peter and Paul … it’s just that they do like to point out that, along with Rome, the Church of Antioch also claims St Peter as its first bishop - and an unbroken line of bishops from that time.
 
VL93 said:
Sorry, catharina, I’m afraid you may have understood my intent in posting the quotes from the Antiochian Orthodox web site. Even the Orthodox don’t claim (at least I hope they don’t!) that Christ founded His Church on SS Peter and Paul … it’s just that they do like to point out that, along with Rome, the Church of Antioch also claims St Peter as its first bishop - and an unbroken line of bishops from that time.
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Well, thank you. I’d also be surprised if anyone believed what I’d understood you to be saying. I guess the quote startled me.
 
holdencaulfield said:
I was wondering, did the early Bishop of Rome have Universal Jurisdiction of the Church including the Eastern Church. Some Orthodox have told me otherwise, however I’m looking for an Early Church Father that takes this stance. Thanks. 🙂
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I would recommend a thorough study of the early popes’ letters, especially those of Leo the Great, who is a saint to the Orthodox as well.

Papal authority can be proven from acts of jurisdiction done by the popes which presuppose universal jurisdiction-- particularly acts of jurisdiction over another patriarch.

From the ancient council collections, reproduced in Latin and Greek by Archbishop Mansi and in ACO, I would offer as an example the deposition of the heresiarch Dioscorus, patriarch of Alexandria, at the Council of Chalcedon. That was done not by Pope Leo in person, but by his legates-- a fortiori an act of authority: legates pronounce sentence on a patriarch. After enumerating the crimes of Dioscorus, which were very serious, Rome’s legates said:

Wherefore the most holy Leo, archbishop of great and old Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice-blessed and most glorious Apostle Peter, Rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him (Dioscorus) of the episcopate and made him alien to the priestly dignity.
 
jj2011 said:
I would recommend a thorough study of the early popes’ letters, especially those of Leo the Great, who is a saint to the Orthodox as well.

Papal authority can be proven from acts of jurisdiction done by the popes which presuppose universal jurisdiction-- particularly acts of jurisdiction over another patriarch.

From the ancient council collections, reproduced in Latin and Greek by Archbishop Mansi and in ACO, I would offer as an example the deposition of the heresiarch Dioscorus, patriarch of Alexandria, at the Council of Chalcedon. That was done not by Pope Leo in person, but by his legates-- a fortiori an act of authority: legates pronounce sentence on a patriarch. After enumerating the crimes of Dioscorus, which were very serious, Rome’s legates said:

Wherefore the most holy Leo, archbishop of great and old Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice-blessed and most glorious Apostle Peter, Rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him (Dioscorus) of the episcopate and made him alien to the priestly dignity.
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Does it weaken the argument to have a synod backing this stripping of episcopal power? 🤷
 
chrisb said:
Does it weaken the argument to have a synod backing this stripping of episcopal power? 🤷
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If the censure was made above Leo’s name and in Leo’s power, acc to his aware and full consent (and I believe it was), then the root of negative reports (synod) is irrelevant.

The synod could be seen as initiating an investigation -
and then finally (and again) as obedient in delivering the Pope’s verdict.
 
VL93 said:
Sorry, catharina, I’m afraid you may have understood my intent in posting the quotes from the Antiochian Orthodox web site. Even the Orthodox don’t claim (at least I hope they don’t!) that Christ founded His Church on SS Peter and Paul … it’s just that they do like to point out that, along with Rome, the Church of Antioch also claims St Peter as its first bishop - and an unbroken line of bishops from that time.
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But Peter would have retained his special status when he left Antioch. It was only after his death that his office would have been handed on. No where do we see this special office claimed for any Petrine See except for Rome.
 
The evidence of Roman vicarates in the jurisdictions of other Patriarchs also shows such universal jurisdiction.
 
Genesis315 said:
But Peter would have retained his special status when he left Antioch. It was only after his death that his office would have been handed on. No where do we see this special office claimed for any Petrine See except for Rome.
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No where? Ah, but don’t you remember the old “Eastern Christianity” forum here? Such claims were often heard there! 😉

But, yes, I do agree with your statement about the special status of the Roman See.
 
VL93 said:
No where? Ah, but don’t you remember the old “Eastern Christianity” forum here? Such claims were often heard there! 😉

But, yes, I do agree with your statement about the special status of the Roman See.
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Could someone systematically present the ‘general’ argument for Papal Universal Jurisdiction? 😊
 
chrisb said:
Could someone systematically present the ‘general’ argument for Papal Universal Jurisdiction? 😊
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Jesus Christ saying (Matthew 16:18)

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
 
catharina said:
Jesus Christ saying (Matthew 16:18)

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
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How is this ‘systematic’? 🤷

Seriously now.
 
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