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CHRISTINE77
Guest
oops sorry!
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campeador
Guest
No problem.oops sorry!
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Still I have a little trouble swallowing the idea that Lutherans think good works are part of salvation. My brother is a Lutheran minister and he is alwasys saying FAITH ALONE. However according to this document Lutherans believe you must do good works too:No problem.
38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
39.The concept of a preservation of grace and a growth in grace and faith is also held by Lutherans. They do emphasize that righteousness as acceptance by God and sharing in the righteousness of Christ is always complete. At the same time, they state that there can be growth in its effects in Christian living. When they view the good works of Christians as the fruits and signs of justification and not as one’s own “merits”, they nevertheless also understand eternal life in accord with the New Testament as unmerited “reward” in the sense of the fulfillment of God’s promise to the believer.
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shawn38
Guest
I don’t think you can with most protestant denominations. For Catholics, justification is a works based process through sacrements and other works. Once you die, you hope you to go to purgatory. Eventually (no one knows how long) you are justified and enter into heaven.
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campeador
Guest
I’m not following you my friend. Are you trying to tell us what we believe or do you still hold to your preconceived prejudices in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
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fhansen
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We have to understand the Joint Declaration in light of all of Church teaching. These are some excerpts from the Catechism and one from Scripture:
**1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Rom 6:22
**
**1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Rom 6:22
**
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
The major differences I see in Catholic vs. Protestant theology about salvation boils down to imputation of grace vs. infusion of grace. Protestants believe that God “credits” us with righteousness, an alien righteousness that belongs to Him and not to us, clothing us in grace and declaring us righteous so that Satan cannot condemn us to hell. After a person is baptized and faithfully justified by faith alone, they begin to grow in their relationship with Christ. They grow nearer to God and wish to serve Him not for reward or gain or to save themselves but to serve and give glory to God. They give God glory and in the process of wishing to please Him and do good works that are pleasing to the Lord, they are sanctified. So justification comes first, sanctification second as a byproduct and blessing from the grace of justification through faith alone, grace alone, and scripture alone.
The Catholic views salvation as a process. Justification is broken into parts. There is initial justification, that spark of the beginning of the faith walk, baptism and encountering the sacraments. As the believer walks in Christ and goes to confession and utilizes the sacraments, he is actually changed. Grace isn’t credited but actually infused and an inner transformation occurs. Through God’s mercy one’s sins are actually taken away. Unlike the imputation model, the sins are removed, not covered and ‘considered’ to be righteous. The man is actually made that way through penance and reconciliation. Then he walks the sacramental life striving to grow in sanctification. As sanctification continues, the believer is transformed and given final justification on the last day.
That’s always my understanding of the differences at least, for what it’s worth
The Catholic views salvation as a process. Justification is broken into parts. There is initial justification, that spark of the beginning of the faith walk, baptism and encountering the sacraments. As the believer walks in Christ and goes to confession and utilizes the sacraments, he is actually changed. Grace isn’t credited but actually infused and an inner transformation occurs. Through God’s mercy one’s sins are actually taken away. Unlike the imputation model, the sins are removed, not covered and ‘considered’ to be righteous. The man is actually made that way through penance and reconciliation. Then he walks the sacramental life striving to grow in sanctification. As sanctification continues, the believer is transformed and given final justification on the last day.
That’s always my understanding of the differences at least, for what it’s worth
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peeteyg
Guest
We are saved by grace, thru faith, working in love. It is the working in love part that constitutes the good works that will be the basis of judgement (Revelation) and demonstrate or faith (James). I read a most excellent article on this very topic. It says that regarding Good works (James) or Works of the Law (Romans) we should understand that it is not the type of works that we do that is important. It is under what system that good work is performed. Most Works of the Law were performed under a system of law. The law showed no mercy and only understood two things obedience or disobedience. We are now under a system of grace. Good works performed in faith under a system of grace is “ALWAYS” meretorious. So, again it is under what system that is important. God rewards us for our faithfulness and our longing for everlasting life. Remember being a good person and not having faith is also dead. Faith without works is dead and works without faith is also dead. Consider these words carefully.
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fbl9
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I suggest you re-read those verses.
What is being wrote about in those verses?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
A non-catholic will only focus on being “saved” never what happens to one after being saved. Thus they follow a man made theology of “once saved always saved” which contradicts scripture , which states “Work out your salvation with fear and tremblilng”. This “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” is for the already saved (baptised which saves you now).
Non-catholics confuse and misinterpret scripture from the biblical teaching of the ministry of reconciliation to mean only for those who are being saved or entering the Kingdom of God.
There is a fundamental difference between non-catholics always referencing what it takes to be saved from God “nothing”, Catholics say amen, it takes faith before entering the kingdom of God. Now how does one enter the kingdom of God? Baptism saves you now. Non-catholics theology stops here. For they have no teaching for those already saved should fall into tempation and sin. It is here where the book of James teaches “Faith and Works” which contradicts a non-catholics man made theology of once saved always saved.
Learning this perspective of when a person is saved, and how one who is saved is called by the scriptures to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” will clarify the confusion.
Peace be with you
Non-catholics confuse and misinterpret scripture from the biblical teaching of the ministry of reconciliation to mean only for those who are being saved or entering the Kingdom of God.
There is a fundamental difference between non-catholics always referencing what it takes to be saved from God “nothing”, Catholics say amen, it takes faith before entering the kingdom of God. Now how does one enter the kingdom of God? Baptism saves you now. Non-catholics theology stops here. For they have no teaching for those already saved should fall into tempation and sin. It is here where the book of James teaches “Faith and Works” which contradicts a non-catholics man made theology of once saved always saved.
Learning this perspective of when a person is saved, and how one who is saved is called by the scriptures to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” will clarify the confusion.
Peace be with you
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cooterhein
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(To the Lutheran)
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
(To the Catholics)
As a non-Catholic, I’d like to make a suggestion to the Catholics about what would be most convincing to me. If you’re able to talk about semi-Pelagianism in some detail and demonstrate that your personal set of beliefs cannot be characterized in that way, that would be quite convincing to me.
Here’s two things to remember. One, we don’t think you’re Pelagian, we think you’re semi-Pelagian. You’ll need to consult the Second Council of Orange, not the first. Two, as far as I know, no one has ever referred to themselves as semi-Pelagian. It’s a moniker attached externally by others and denied by the one who wears it. A semi-Pelagian is a person who attempts to make peace between Augustine’s teaching and that of Pelagius. It’s a compromise, and when people do this, they believe they’re staying within the bounds of Church teaching.
Again, as a general rule, people don’t refer to themselves as semi-Pelagians. You want to know what they usually call themselves, though?
Catholics.
Generally speaking, anyway. That’s certainly how it was initially, and for the most part, that’s what has continued to happen.
One more thing to keep in mind: What many non-Catholics believe is that the bounds of Church teaching have changed since the Second Council of Orange and it is now possible or even probable for a Catholic to have a thoroughly semi-Pelagian understanding of soteriology without being any less Catholic. So what you have to do is demonstrate that you- personally- do not have a thoroughly semi-Pelagian understanding of soteriology. It’s not going to be enough for you to demonstrate that you’re within the bounds of Church teaching. You actually have to know what semi-Pelagianism is and reject it.
If you are looking for a suitable Catholic template, though, you should go with Augustine. He is the one who refuted both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, after all. Get more specific than “Catholic teaching” and go right for the Augustinian refutation of this specific heresy. Get cozy with him and know exactly how he responded to semi-Pelagianism. Then you do that, too.
If you do that, I’ll be thoroughly convinced that you’re not semi-Pelagian. I think just about any non-Catholic you meet would have to admit it, too.
When you link to the Joint Declaration, you should also include a link to the Catholic Response to the Joint Declaration. It reaffirms some things about the role of Catholic works that are, at the very least, downplayed in the Joint Declaration. Which is exactly why there is an official response.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
(To the Catholics)
As a non-Catholic, I’d like to make a suggestion to the Catholics about what would be most convincing to me. If you’re able to talk about semi-Pelagianism in some detail and demonstrate that your personal set of beliefs cannot be characterized in that way, that would be quite convincing to me.
Here’s two things to remember. One, we don’t think you’re Pelagian, we think you’re semi-Pelagian. You’ll need to consult the Second Council of Orange, not the first. Two, as far as I know, no one has ever referred to themselves as semi-Pelagian. It’s a moniker attached externally by others and denied by the one who wears it. A semi-Pelagian is a person who attempts to make peace between Augustine’s teaching and that of Pelagius. It’s a compromise, and when people do this, they believe they’re staying within the bounds of Church teaching.
Again, as a general rule, people don’t refer to themselves as semi-Pelagians. You want to know what they usually call themselves, though?
Catholics.
Generally speaking, anyway. That’s certainly how it was initially, and for the most part, that’s what has continued to happen.
One more thing to keep in mind: What many non-Catholics believe is that the bounds of Church teaching have changed since the Second Council of Orange and it is now possible or even probable for a Catholic to have a thoroughly semi-Pelagian understanding of soteriology without being any less Catholic. So what you have to do is demonstrate that you- personally- do not have a thoroughly semi-Pelagian understanding of soteriology. It’s not going to be enough for you to demonstrate that you’re within the bounds of Church teaching. You actually have to know what semi-Pelagianism is and reject it.
If you are looking for a suitable Catholic template, though, you should go with Augustine. He is the one who refuted both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, after all. Get more specific than “Catholic teaching” and go right for the Augustinian refutation of this specific heresy. Get cozy with him and know exactly how he responded to semi-Pelagianism. Then you do that, too.
If you do that, I’ll be thoroughly convinced that you’re not semi-Pelagian. I think just about any non-Catholic you meet would have to admit it, too.
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flyonthewall
Guest
I have always seen faith as an action word. Simply put, faith is belief + action upon that belief.
Works are a part of faith, as James stated “faith without works is dead”.
Though works may be required, they alone are not sufficient.
The scriptures spend a lot of time and effort preaching obedience and repentance. These are the works we must do.
My two cents anyways…
Works are a part of faith, as James stated “faith without works is dead”.
Though works may be required, they alone are not sufficient.
The scriptures spend a lot of time and effort preaching obedience and repentance. These are the works we must do.
My two cents anyways…
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fhansen
Guest
From the 2nd Council of Orange:
According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.
These statements affirm the necessity of mans’ will being involved in his salvation while precluding the error of double predestination.
In Catholic thought, man cannot be saved without grace but God does not save man without his consent; the will of man is never completely divorced from his salvation, just as the will of man was not divorced from his fall.
**He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent. **
– Saint Augustine
The God who gave you free will will not violate it to save you
– St, Augustine.
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Izdaari
Guest
So far as I understand, “earning salvation” is a heretical notion in both Catholic and Protestant theology.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Wait a minute, I believe that is false.
Sanctification
Being made holy. The first sanctification takes place at baptism, by which the love of God is infused by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). Newly baptized persons are holy because the Holy Trinity begins to dwell in their souls and they are pleasing to God. The second sanctification is a lifelong process in which a person already in the state of grace grows in the possession of grace and in likeness to God by faithfully corresponding with the divine inspirations. The third sanctification takes place when a person enters heaven and becomes totally and irrevocably united with God in the beatific vision.
Justification
The process of a sinner becoming justified or made right with God. As defined by the Council of Trent, “Justification is the change from the condition in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam into a state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the Second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior” (Denzinger 1524). On the negative side, justification is a true removal of sin, and not merely having one’s sins ignored or no longer held against the sinner by God. On the positive side it is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven.
The differences are subtle, but they’re there and they’re not basically the same.
fallibleblogma.com/index.php/justification-vs-sanctification-vs-salvation/
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
If you believe in the necessity of works…don’t we believe the same thing?
I hope the answer is yes.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
You took the words out of my mouth!
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Pug
Guest
You have to figure out what they mean by “earn our salvation”. If they mean that it says this sentence in the CCC (in the middle of paragraph 2010), “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life,” you have one issue. If they mean that they object to the idea that baptism is a sacrament that Catholics supposedly “perform” and thus it is a work that is viewed as an attempt to compel God to justify us, that is another thing. Or, they may be concerned that some Catholic out there might believe that people can somehow obligate God to justify them from sin by being nice people who help the elderly cross the street and who volunteer for the peace corps and who don’t commit crimes. (I am not claiming Catholics actually believe whatever it is that the hypothetical questioner is concerned about, btw.) Oh, perhaps they also might be objecting to some idea they heard that one can fall from grace after being justified. My experience is that each person who asks questions about “earn our salvation” may have a slightly different concern in their mind, so you have to ask them about it further.
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fhansen
Guest
If the difference is subtle in Catholicism, it’s far from subtle in Protestantism, generally speaking, as justification necessarily precedes sanctification-kinda like saying one becomes just without actually being just, while in Catholicism the two are inseparable; one must be sanctified in order to be justified. The following paragraphs are from the Catechism, both listed together under the index sub-heading “justification as sanctification”:
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
As you noted, Trent says that justification consists, negatively, in the remission of sins and, positively, in the renewal and sanctification of the inward man.
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