East Rite Catholic Beliefs?

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In response to me asking for a definitive clarification as to whether you believe Eastern Catholics must give the assent of faith to the infallibly defined dogmas of the Catholic Faith, you responded:

“There really isn’t much difference between what the dogma states and what we believe. The difference lies really in how the theology was defined early on.”

Given the context and your making a distinction between “what the dogma states” and “what we believe” and procaiming that there “really isn’t much difference” (implying that there is a little difference) you seem to be saying, in a rather political, roundabout way, that Eastern Catholics are not bound by Catholic dogma that has been bindingly defined by the Magisterium, they just happen to agree with them for the most part. If this is not what you mean to get across, by all mean clarify yourself.

I realize that on the issue of the Immaculate Conception, Eastern Christians have always believed Mary to have been sinless throughout her life, or at least this is what I’ve been told and I have no reason to doubt it. I’m not sure whether the understanding you expressed is compatible with the idea of Mary being preserved from Original Sin in virtue of the merits of Christ (according to whatever other terms you prefer to use for these things), but perhaps it is.

In any case, I and I think others have only been using the Immaculate Conception as an example. The underlying point is whether you consider yourself subject to the teaching authority of the Magisterium, particularly the Extraordinary Magisterium as exercised by the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years. Not bound to use all the language in which their statements are expressed, but bound to accept the truth of the statements as they are meant (as opposed to potential misunderstandings of what was meant engendered by the difference in theological language). If, for example, the Magisterium issued a definitive, binding statement that, once all semantic issues were translated, still irreconcilably contradicted a tenet of traditional Eastern theology, would you see yourselves as bound to nonetheless accept the infallibly defined statement?
I think I already made it clear. How can we believe Mary was exempted from something that we do not believe in? What we believe is compatible to what was dogmatically defined. There is no reason to argue, the basis for the definition is the theology behind it. We accept that the dogma is not any different from what we believe. But at the same time its not compatible to Eastern Theology therefore we cannot teach it that way.
 
I think I already made it clear. How can we believe Mary was exempted from something that we do not believe in? What we believe is compatible to what was dogmatically defined. There is no reason to argue, the basis for the definition is the theology behind it. We accept that the dogma is not any different from what we believe. But at the same time its not compatible to Eastern Theology therefore we cannot teach it that way.
You can’t accept that Mary was preserved from having this lack of divine indwelling from her conception? Or that she was “exempted” from having that absence for that matter, though the word doesn’t appear in the dogmatic definition?

Anyway, you still haven’t answered my question as to whether Eastern Catholics are bound by the definitive teachings of the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years.
 
The Latin Church view, we are baptised to remedy the death of the soul that we are born with, which seems to be in harmony with St. John Chrysostom:
CCC 403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292
 
You can’t accept that Mary was preserved from having this lack of divine indwelling from her conception? Or that she was “exempted” from having that absence for that matter, though the word doesn’t appear in the dogmatic definition?

Anyway, you still haven’t answered my question as to whether Eastern Catholics are bound by the definitive teachings of the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years.
No we are not. We accept the first seven Ecumenical Councils and are not bound to anything after that.
Incidentally, this has always been my understanding of Original Sin.
The problem of the East with the concept of Original Sin is the aspect that there is a “stain” that is inherited.
 
No we are not. We accept the first seven Ecumenical Councils and are not bound to anything after that.
Well, at least we’ve got your position out in the open now. It’s certainly not the position of all Eastern Catholics though. I may return to this later, but for now consider these question-and-answer style statements from Melkite Bishop John Elya (just the best thing I could find quickly on the internet; I’m sure there are better resources out there).

"View of the Post-Schism Councils: Must we Eastern Catholics consider the post-schism General Councils of the Roman Church Ecumenical like the Seven of the First Millennium?

Bishop John’s Answer: Patriarch Gregory II Youssef-Sayour occupied the Melkite throne of Antioch for thirty-three years (1864-1897). At Vatican I, the Patriarch gave an impassioned plea to the assembled bishops in defense of the prerogatives of the ancient patriarchs. He said: "The Eastern Church attributes the highest and most complete power to the Pope, but in such a way that the fullness of his power is in harmony with the rights of the other Patriarchal Sees. (Mansi 52,cols. 133-137). Patriarch Gregory finally signed the document Pastor aeternus but only after adding the phrase made famous at the earlier Council of Florence that expressed his reservations. He added: “salvis omnibus iuribus et privilegiis patriarcharum”. {saving all of the rights and privileges of the patriarchs}.

While the first seven ecumenical councils enjoy a place of prominence, especially in the East, both the Churches of the East and West have experienced local councils and synods throughout their rich histories. The early ecumenical councils met to resolve and articulate important Christological doctrines. The Melkite Church participated fully in Vatican I and Patriarch Gregory spoke clearly to his affirmation of the fullness of power enjoyed by the Petrine Office. The Patriarch was very concerned that the exercise of papal powers be “in harmony with the rights of the other Patriarchal Sees.” The second Vatican Council is seen to have completed the unfinished business of Vatican I with its special emphasis on ecclesiology, specifically on the nature of the Church.

Recent theological speculation has developed the concept of “communion of churches” with promising results for ecumenism and rapprochement with the Orthodox. It would be a simple rekindling of the old controversy of conciliarism to suggest that some councils are less ecumenical than others. With the promulgation of the Holy Father, the doctrinal content of the various councils is a part of the sacred magisterial teaching of the Church to which Melkites in full communion with the See of Rome give wholehearted assent."

And, with considerably greater clarity:

"Council of Trent: "What is the Melkite view vis-à-vis the Council of Trent and other such councils that the East was not represented at, and that reflect a specifically western vision of the church? Are we bound by them?

Bishop John’s Answer: Although the Council of Trent was convened in order to meet the challenges of the Reformation in the west, the recapitulation of dogma concerning the sacraments that came from the Council has been an enriching source for the Churches of both east and west. Indeed, you will note that many Eastern theologians have reacted in various ways to the decrees of the Council of Trent. As Catholics, we are bound to all of the decrees of the councils that have been promulgated by the Holy Father. In some instances, the decrees of the Council have direct application to the discipline of the west only. Usually this can be discerned either by the decree itself or by its logical application to the discipline of the west."

melkite.org/bishopQA.htm
 
Dear brother Aelred,

What I understood from your question is (and I underlined it):

Anyway, you still haven’t answered my question as to whether Eastern Catholics are bound by the definitive teachings of the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years.

My personal answer is “YES.” I think brother ConstantineTG misread your question to mean that we as non-Latins are bound to call these Ecumenical Councils “Ecumenical.” I dont regard many of the Councils after the 7th as “Ecumenical,” but I accept the dogmatic Faith that was taught by those Councils unreservedly (with due regard for the fact that that same dogmatic Faith may be expressed in different ways among the different Traditions within the Catholic Church).

Further, also keep in mind that non-Latins might not see themselves/ourselves as submitting to the teaching of those Councils in the way you have expressed it. In other words, some or many may not admit that we non-Latins are bound to the teachings of Popes and Ecumenical Councils in the second millenium. Rather we would say that we are bound to the teaching of Sacred Tradition, which those teachings of the Popes and Councils (called “Ecumenical” by many Latin Catholics) in the second millenium have also been faithful to preserve.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Aelered,

How do you perceive the Eastern Bishop(s) in the Magesterium. If you are in their care, what level of assent is required of you. Are you seeking to deepen your understanding of Saint Bernadette? There is something unsettling in the way you are questioning your brother.

peace
 
Hi,
Just want to give my two pennies worth.

Ecumenical councils are those that declare truths which are undeniable for catholics.
Unecumenical councils are those that do not do this but give direction.

If it is said “I believe everything in those councils as true” then it follows
by definition that those councils are ecumenical, because that is what they do.
It is almost like saying, “I won’t say the person is fat, but they are very, very
heavy.”

The word “ecumenical” expresses an idea which could well be expressed by
another manufactured word. The meaning underneath the word or expression
can be the same. We could say “mouse” or the “little thing that always eats
the cheese”.

An Eastern Catholic church was granted the right to say in their divine liturgy
that the Holy Spirit came “from the Father”. The Latin Catholic church says
“from the Father and the Son”. Tho the Son is not mentioned by this
Eastern church in the liturgy, they still believe “from the Father and the Son”.

For whatever its worth.
 
Why do I get the feeling that some Western Catholics constantly want to “trap” Eastern Catholics into admitting they are not “true Catholics” ™? 😦

As ConstantineTG has pointed out, the Eastern Church had its belief and doctrine about the Theotokos long, LONG before the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was formulated in the West. 👍

It is really sad that we constantly have to defend our beliefs of almost 2,000 years against you young Western whippersnappers. 😃
 
Quite a bit of irony here. People who believed in the Immaculate Conception when they were RC’s, who then stop believing in it when they become EC’s, even though belief in the IC is quite common among cradle EC’s.
 
Why do I get the feeling that some Western Catholics constantly want to “trap” Eastern Catholics into admitting they are not “true Catholics” ™? 😦

As ConstantineTG has pointed out, the Eastern Church had its belief and doctrine about the Theotokos long, LONG before the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was formulated in the West. 👍

It is really sad that we constantly have to defend our beliefs of almost 2,000 years against you young Western whippersnappers. 😃
I’m sorry this thread has come off that way to you, and apparently others. Speaking for myself (since clearly I’m the primary one you are talking about) I have no interest in denigrating Eastern Catholicism. What I really want to get out in the open though is that the Magisterium as a whole didn’t lose its universal authority sometime around the Photian schism, such that an important segment of the Church doesn’t have to believe Church teaching anymore, unless it was something proclaimed before that point.

I think everyone here agrees that both Eastern and Western Christianity are legitimate and valuable parts of the Church, and that neither side should try to annihilate the other through absorption, or drive the other out of the Church. What I find really important though is that when the Extraordinary Magisterium teaches the Church it teaches the whole Church.
 
Let me explain how I see the matter, in relatively simple terms not because I’m talking down to anyone but to enhance clarity.

The bishops as a whole are the teachers of the Church as a whole. Ordinarily this teaching takes place at the local level, and this is good and normal. The danger does remain though that a bishop will depart from the truth, since Christ’s promise to preserve the Church applies to the Church as a whole, not to individual dioceses/eparchies with their individual bishops. Indeed, we know many bishops, and even whole groups of bishops, have fallen into heresy and schism over the years. This is why the Church was endowed with a visible point of unity that can itself (himself) interpret doctrine, in the form of a head bishop so to speak, with whom all must remain in communion if they are to remain in the Catholic Church, and who can clarify what is the true Catholic faith and what is a misrepresentation.

Because if this unique position, the bishop of Rome can essentially speak for the whole body of bishops put together, since he is this great reference point for all faithful Christians to recognize both the visible bounds and the authentic teaching of the Church of Christ. Likewise he can grant (or withhold) this same universal authority to meetings of bishops, whether by presiding over such a council and giving it that authority at the time, or through granting its documents that authority later by recognizing it as an ecumenical council. A council cannot be ecumenical without this recognition, even if every bishop other than the Pope participated and declared it ecumenical (which has never happened), because the rest of the bishops must be in union with the point-of-reference bishop for it to be an act of the Magisterium as a whole, rather than a lower level synod analogous to an individual diocesan bishop’s teachings.

[It’s true the bishops’ ordinary, diffuse teaching can be universal and therefore infallible as well, but only when all the bishops throughout the world, in union with the bishop of Rome and each other, agree and teach that a matter of faith or morals is to be definitively held. Thus when there is a contradiction between the teachings of two individual bishops then neither bishop’s ordinary magisterial teaching can be considered universal magisterial teaching. But by its very nature this Ordinary and Universal Magisterium doesn’t touch internally controversial matters, so the main thing we are talking about is the Extraordinary Magisterial teaching of Popes and Ecumenical Councils and Ordinary, not Universal teaching of individual bishops.]

It seems to me that if, when universal Magisterial authority is explicitly exercised to bind “all the faithful” to a doctrine or dogma, there is a group of Catholics that are inherently exempt from this due to some special status in the Church, then the Magisterium as a whole can no longer function. It merely becomes local groups of bishops teaching local groups of the faithful (however large a percentage of total Catholics one group may be).

Such an authority would not be infallible, since an attempt to bind all the faithful to an error would not bind the entire Church to error, but rather it would be like an individual bishop attempting to bind his local flock to an error. No matter how much power he may claim, he would never have it, since the faithful could still reject his teaching and remain faithful to the Magisterium as a whole. Only if the individual or group can speak for the whole Magisterium would it be possible for the Magisterium as a whole to teach error, and only this would constitute an utter failure of the Church (when it comes to issues of teaching, that is).

What you end up with in such a case is a Church much like the Orthodox Church, incapable of exercising universal teaching authority on any internally controversial subject, despite such authority apparently being recognized in the first eight centuries of the Church. Teachings on the Papacy in Vatican I and Vatican II would need to be rejected, not only by Eastern Catholics but by Western Catholics as well to remain faithful to the truth, since the whole idea of Papal infallibility rests on the ability of the Pope to bind the entire Church to a belief. Some kind of local binding power with local infallibility would not only not hold water since the whole logic of infallibility rests on Papal and Conciliar authority being universal, but to admit infallibility that applies to one person but not to another would relativize truth, defeating the whole idea of actual objective revealed truth. Meanwhile if we did admit local binding power without local infallibility and with an objective idea of truth it would mean bishops can force individuals into heresy and in fact have done so on the issue of infallibility. I think we can all agree that would be abominable.

Anyway, hopefully you can understand where I am coming from and why I consider perpetual universal extraordinary magisterial authority something to be insisted on, that I’m not just some pigheaded Latin who loves to bully those funny-looking Easterners. 😛

Clearly there are other Eastern Catholics out there, including the Melkite bishop I quoted and mardukm, who do accept universal extraordinary magisterial authority while proudly retaining their Eastern identity.
 
I think you’re equating the truth with only one viewpoint. That if the truth is not packaged the way you think it should be packaged, then it is not the truth. The truth is the same, but because its not straightforward and easily understood, it comes in different packages. In fact, Pope John Paul II himself said in Orientale Lumen that certain truths are better explained in one tradition over the other. He acknowledges that there is diversity in the Church and this diversity helps us understand our faith better.
 
Dear brothers ConstantineTG and Aelred,

Judging from both your statements, it seems that:

(1) You are both trying to say the same thing;

(2) You are both putting words in each others’ mouths and trying to make points on the asumption that the other is denying those points.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brothers ConstantineTG and Aelred,

Judging from both your statements, it seems that:

(1) You are both trying to say the same thing;

(2) You are both putting words in each others’ mouths and trying to make points on the asumption that the other is denying those points.

Blessings,
Marduk
Following a series of posts in which ConstantineTG could possibly have been interpreted as rejecting a substantial part of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception (that Mary was preserved from something) and even as holding that Eastern Catholics are not subject to the Extraordinary Magisterium, I wrote to him:

“I keep trying to interpret your statements in the best possible light, but I now find myself compelled to ask for this clarification: do you mean to suggest that Eastern Catholics are not bound to give the assent of faith to the infallibly defined dogmas of the Catholic Faith?”

I was hoping ConstantineTG would lay that concern to rest by proclaiming his fidelity to the Magisterium while insisting on his right to use Eastern vocabulary and theological concepts in discussing these teachings. This would prove the point about the fidelity of Eastern Catholics to the Church that I was trying to make, leaving the discussion about the Immaculate Conception a tangent that might or might not be worth clearing up. Instead he responded:

“There really isn’t much difference between what the dogma states and what we believe. The difference lies really in how the theology was defined early on.”

I was disappointed by this answer and took it to be evasion, as I had asked a clear question and he had given a very opaque answer, one which seemed designed to obscure dissent. Perhaps that was an uncharitable assumption on my part. In any case, I pressed him:

“The underlying point is whether you consider yourself subject to the teaching authority of the Magisterium, particularly the Extraordinary Magisterium as exercised by the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years. Not bound to use all the language in which their statements are expressed, but bound to accept the truth of the statements as they are meant (as opposed to potential misunderstandings of what was meant engendered by the difference in theological language). If, for example, the Magisterium issued a definitive, binding statement that, once all semantic issues were translated, still irreconcilably contradicted a tenet of traditional Eastern theology, would you see yourselves as bound to nonetheless accept the infallibly defined statement?”

He again responded opaquely:

“I think I already made it clear. How can we believe Mary was exempted from something that we do not believe in? What we believe is compatible to what was dogmatically defined. There is no reason to argue, the basis for the definition is the theology behind it. We accept that the dogma is not any different from what we believe. But at the same time its not compatible to Eastern Theology therefore we cannot teach it that way.”

He returned to the example rather than directly addressing my question, and he again made it sound as though he ultimately rejected aspects of the dogmatic teaching in question while retaining what he thought the important part of it, though again it was less than crystal clear that he was not talking purely about liberty to use an alternate theological vocabulary. So I asked yet again:

“Anyway, you still haven’t answered my question as to whether Eastern Catholics are bound by the definitive teachings of the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years.”

To which he finally responded:

“No we are not. We accept the first seven Ecumenical Councils and are not bound to anything after that.”

It doesn’t seem to me that I’ve put any words in ConstantineTG’s mouth. I have asked a question and he has answered it. If he wishes to clarify or correct his statement I very much hope he does so. I guess I’d better address that part to him rather than indirectly through this post.
 
I think you’re equating the truth with only one viewpoint. That if the truth is not packaged the way you think it should be packaged, then it is not the truth. The truth is the same, but because its not straightforward and easily understood, it comes in different packages. In fact, Pope John Paul II himself said in Orientale Lumen that certain truths are better explained in one tradition over the other. He acknowledges that there is diversity in the Church and this diversity helps us understand our faith better.
ConstantineTG,

We are in agreement that the same truth can be “packaged” in different words, that some truths can be more effectively explained in one tradition compared to another, and that a diversity in how these things are explained can help us understand our faith better- by listening to the same idea described in a different way and thus getting a fresh perspective on the same truth, by encountering a different metaphor for a mysterious reality (i.e. the final purification either as a refining fire or as a journey), etc.

Please understand that I’m not arguing against Eastern theology here or against theological diversity in general. I really wish to lay aside the issue of the Immaculate Conception, at least for now, because it’s become a distraction from the main point I keep trying to get at: fidelity to the Magisterium.

Mardukm thinks I’m misunderstanding what you mean, that you do in fact accept the continued authority of the Extraordinary Magisterium over the entire Church, West and East. If it’s true that this is a big misunderstanding, I would personally be thrilled to find out, since it would help demonstrate the point I originally tried to make, which is that you Eastern Catholics are indeed faithful to the Magisterium. If it is not a misunderstanding, then my point stands that this is far from the universal view of Eastern Catholics, so much so that one of your fellow Eastern Catholics evidently finds it hard to believe you really take the position you seem to have taken.
 
Dear brother Aelred,
“The underlying point is whether you consider yourself subject to the teaching authority of the Magisterium, particularly the Extraordinary Magisterium as exercised by the Popes and Ecumenical Councils of the last thousand years. Not bound to use all the language in which their statements are expressed, but bound to accept the truth of the statements as they are meant (as opposed to potential misunderstandings of what was meant engendered by the difference in theological language). If, for example, the Magisterium issued a definitive, binding statement that, once all semantic issues were translated, still irreconcilably contradicted a tenet of traditional Eastern theology, would you see yourselves as bound to nonetheless accept the infallibly defined statement?”

He again responded opaquely:

“I think I already made it clear. How can we believe Mary was exempted from something that we do not believe in? What we believe is compatible to what was dogmatically defined. There is no reason to argue, the basis for the definition is the theology behind it. We accept that the dogma is not any different from what we believe. But at the same time its not compatible to Eastern Theology therefore we cannot teach it that way.
I don’t know what you find “opaque” about the statement I highlighted above.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Aelred,

I don’t know what you find “opaque” about the statement I highlighted above.

Blessings,
Marduk
Do we really have to argue about this kind of minutia? For one thing it’s opaque because just before this he said, “How can we believe Mary was exempted from something that we do not believe in?”, and even in the second sentence of your highlighted section he proclaims the dogma “not compatible” with what Eastern Catholics believe, not just worded in a way that they would not word it. It can seem he means aspects of the substance of the dogma rather than the “packaging” of the wording, but the more positive statements in the post could seem to contradict this interpretation, hence “opaque.”

But much more than that, it’s opaque because it does not directly answer the question, which was whether he is sees himself as bound to extraordinary Magisterial teaching in general. The nearest thing was his making a distinction in his language between “the dogma” and “what we believe”, which seemed to suggest Eastern Catholics did not believe in the dogma itself but have merely arrived at a substantially similar conclusion independently. But again, he did not clearly state this, and could be interpreted as having simply poorly worded what he meant to say.

Finally, he did clarify his position in the next post of the exchange, proclaiming that “we” (presumably Eastern Catholics as a whole) are not bound to anything after the first seven ecumenical councils.
 
Quite a bit of irony here. People who believed in the Immaculate Conception when they were RC’s, who then stop believing in it when they become EC’s, even though belief in the IC is quite common among cradle EC’s.
Whats ironic there? “Converts” are more fervent about the faith than cradles. When we transitioned, its because we acknowledge there are differences. Why would we become ECs to get the same exact thing? Just because of a difference in Liturgy?

We don’t think the IC is wrong for Western Theology. We do acknowledge that it is incompatible in Eastern Theology for the simple fact that it discusses Original Sin, which is not a part of Eastern Theology. Everything else about the Immaculate Conception is the same exact thing Eastern Christians believe.
 
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