East/West Reunification- a consideration

[Surnaturel]

Have you presented this idea to Pope Francis?

His Holiness and I have been in contact

 

[Surnaturel]

Ok… I was going to stick up for my Catholic friends and say that there’s going to be liturgical abuse . But that carnival procession with the roller skating angels is actually too much.

.

Those are liturgical abuses to be sure. Bishops crack down on such nonsense. I have never experienced a mass near that silliness. I did, however, go to one mass where it was entirely 1960s-70s people, acoustic guitars, and koombya…it was horrible. Thankfully, the next week a priest from Africa came and had such reverence for the liturgy, incorporating a few
Latin hymns and had incense. I guess they showed the Woodstock priest the door…

With regard to the question as to whether the Orthodox would “accept” the Latin rite liturgy, they would have to. It is non-negotiable. If one looks at the earliest liturgical documents from the Fathers then you will see, nearly word for word much of the mass. See St. Justin Martyr (2nd century) and Hippolytus. It would be a radical encroachment on the autonomy of Rome to try to dictate how we celebrate mass - the very jurisdictional concern that Orthodox have with papal primacy and its interpretation. The East and West both have ancient and diverse traditions that developed in different cultures and it would be a gross display of ethnocentrism to try to reduce either liturgy to a homogenous unity.

 

[benjohnson]

Those are liturgical abuses to be sure. Bishops crack down on such nonsense. I have never experienced a mass near that silliness. I did, however, go to one mass where it was entirely 1960s-70s people, acoustic guitars, and koombya…it was horrible. Thankfully, the next week a priest from Africa came and had such reverence for the liturgy, incorporating a few
Latin hymns and had incense. I guess they showed the Woodstock priest the door…

I love it!

 

[Tomdstone]

Those are liturgical abuses to be sure. Bishops crack down on such nonsense.

They do? If you watch one of the videos, you would see it is a bishop who is clapping and he seems very content with the liturgy as it is celebrated. So I don’t see him as saying that this is a liturgical abuse. He is not cracking down on it; he is celebrating it.
I have heard from some Orthodox that they beleive that the current state of the Roman liturgy as it is celebrated today, does present a problem for unification. Why do you suppose that those videos comparing the Orthodox liturgy with the Roman Catholic liturgy were uploaded to you tube?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I wonder if the Orthodox would accept the current Roman liturgy as OK? The Orthodox liturgy seems to take Church services very seriously, whereas the Catholic liturgy oftentimes takes has a light hearted tone to it.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fHZtbnaXuGk

youtube.com/watch?v=QxcOv4zPoVo

Frankly, I think the video portrays an inaccurate view of the Roman Mass. I have worshiped many times in Catholic parishes and cathedrals and have never seen anything like that Clown Mass. The Western Church has put the emphasis on reaching out to the people, making the experience at Mass as meaningful as possible.

No doubt the Orthodox Liturgy is quite beautiful but for many Christians it is too weighed down in ritual. How many times can a person cross themselves?

Please, no offense but the Eastern Church represents a different era in my opinion. That is neither good nor bad.

 

[Surnaturel]

They do? If you watch one of the videos, you would see it is a bishop who is clapping and he seems very content with the liturgy as it is celebrated. So I don’t see him as saying that this is a liturgical abuse. He is not cracking down on it; he is celebrating it.
I have heard from some Orthodox that they beleive that the current state of the Roman liturgy as it is celebrated today, does present a problem for unification. Why do you suppose that those videos comparing the Orthodox liturgy with the Roman Catholic liturgy were uploaded to you tube?

First, I want to see the details of what happened in the video you posted so I can see what action was or was not taken. It is an absurd comparison since whatever circus show you posted is not a Catholic mass, it is purposefully disingenuous to take an extreme example and devistion and present it as though that is the Latin liturgy. So, post the details and lets examine what exactly is going on there.

With regard to the RC liturgy and EO opinion of it, it would be a deal breaker for reunification if a sister church tried to impose itself on RC liturgy. Although when people make these silly youtube comparisons that aren’t accurate then I wouldn’t blame them for being skeptical.

And I should note that liturgical abuses are not new, if you look in Denzinger then you will see an interesting and somewhat amusing letter from a pope written to a Nordic church which prohibited them from baptizing in beer (true story). It is not always easy to regulate what happens in distant corners of the world, the Nords, for example, living on the edge of the earth

 

[Surnaturel]

Frankly, I think the video portrays an inaccurate view of the Roman Mass. I have worshiped many times in Catholic parishes and cathedrals and have never seen anything like that Clown Mass. The Western Church has put the emphasis on reaching out to the people, making the experience at Mass as meaningful as possible.

No doubt the Orthodox Liturgy is quite beautiful but for many Christians it is too weighed down in ritual. How many times can a person cross themselves?

Please, no offense but the Eastern Church represents a different era in my opinion. That is neither good nor bad.

Thanks brother, I appreciate the support.

 

[UncleBill]

I agree. This is why I proposed that Rome retains its jurisdictional authority over its own Church and the other Churches do the same and the uniates have the option of who’s jurisdiction they will be under just like the Ecumenical Patriarch has eparchs.

What did you think about the patriarch council and the rest of the OP? I would be interested in an Orthodox perspective. But a lot of this former from my reading of Orthodox theologians.

Boy I’m sure glad you aren’t calling the shots! As it has been stated many times our vocation as Eastern Catholics is too disappear. I can’t wait for that to happen.

 

[UncleBill]

First, I want to see the details of what happened in the video you posted so I can see what action was or was not taken. It is an absurd comparison since whatever circus show you posted is not a Catholic mass, it is purposefully disingenuous to take an extreme example and devistion and present it as though that is the Latin liturgy. So, post the details and lets examine what exactly is going on there.

With regard to the RC liturgy and EO opinion of it, it would be a deal breaker for reunification if a sister church tried to impose itself on RC liturgy. Although when people make these silly youtube comparisons that aren’t accurate then I wouldn’t blame them for being skeptical.

And I should note that liturgical abuses are not new, if you look in Denzinger then you will see an interesting and somewhat amusing letter from a pope written to a Nordic church which prohibited them from baptizing in beer (true story). It is not always easy to regulate what happens in distant corners of the world, the Nords, for example, living on the edge of the earth

The YouTube video is very accurate…the modern Roman liturgy if a big mess…and I believe tasty the Orthodox can help in the Latin church
Getting her act together liturgicly.

 

[UncleBill]

I’m glad that when the day comes for reunification that it will be done by people who have an idea of how the church works. It is all about unity…not submission to Rome…each of the individual Churches that is presently divided will be reunited, not just the individual Orthodox Churches coming under Rome, so the Melkites and the
Antiocheans will again be one Church, the Russian Catholics and Russian Orthodox will again be one Church…etc, etc.
As Patriarch Gregorios of the Melkites had said, he would bed the first to resign his position in the cause of unity.

We need to return to our Mother Churches.

 

[Surnaturel]

I’m glad that when the day comes for reunification that it will be done by people who have an idea of how the church works. It is all about unity…not submission to Rome…each of the individual Churches that is presently divided will be reunited, not just the individual Orthodox Churches coming under Rome, so the Melkites and the
Antiocheans will again be one Church, the Russian Catholics and Russian Orthodox will again be one Church…etc, etc.
As Patriarch Gregorios of the Melkites had said, he would bed the first to resign his position in the cause of unity.

We need to return to our Mother Churches.

I don’t think you understand the proposal or at least your comments ITT lead me to believe that. I proposed that the autocephalous churches would not submit to Rome at all; Rome would retain jurisdiction over its own church and the Uniates would make their own decision about going to their mother churches. As I said, I am not at all against the Uniates going to their mother churches, but they shouldn’t be forced to do so if they don’t want to. Again, as I also said, I do, however, believe that most if not all would return to their mother church. Seems rather odd to accuse the pope of ruling by power and making other churches submit to him when ITT I simply suggest that he tells the bishops to make the best choice for their church.

 

[Love4All]

I don’t think you understand the proposal or at least your comments ITT lead me to believe that. I proposed that the autocephalous churches would not submit to Rome at all; Rome would retain jurisdiction over its own church and the Uniates would make their own decision about going to their mother churches. As I said, I am not at all against the Uniates going to their mother churches, but they shouldn’t be forced to do so if they don’t want to. Again, as I also said, I do, however, believe that most if not all would return to their mother church. Seems rather odd to accuse the pope of ruling by power and making other churches submit to him when ITT I simply suggest that he tells the bishops to make the best choice for their church.

Jesus founded ONE Church. Full Stop. Period.

Variety is the spice of life, but a body divided is a corpse.

 

[Love4All]

His Holiness and I have been in contact

Excellent.

 

[UncleBill]

Jesus founded ONE Church. Full Stop. Period.

Variety is the spice of life, but a body divided is a corpse.

Amen! We Easterners want to be reunited to our Mother! I think you Latins should mind your own business…get your house in order…and get rid of those clown Masses.

 

[Nine_Two]

Amen! We Easterners want to be reunited to our Mother! I think you Latins should mind your own business…get your house in order…and get rid of those clown Masses.

Rome is not the Mother. If there is a Mother it is Jerusalem, the Church from which all other Churches sprang. Rome had child churches, but she ate them (Celtic Church, Anglo-Church, Gallic Church, Spanish Church, etc).

 

[Surnaturel]

Rome is not the Mother. If there is a Mother it is Jerusalem, the Church from which all other Churches sprang. Rome had child churches, but she ate them (Celtic Church, Anglo-Church, Gallic Church, Spanish Church, etc).

You misread him. He was referring to his desire for the Return of uniates to Orthodox mother churches.

Actually, all of the ‘child’ churches blended together Into a unified liturgy and united as The Catholic Church, and, then, historically, with the fall of Rome, popes increadingly had to rule the domain so its people wouldn’t be raped and sacked and murdered by a multitude of Germanic tribes. True enough that there many abuses of power and responsibility that have occurred, and that applies to the East too, but there is also truth that the centralization was quite necessary at the time but today when we have 1.2 billion Catholics around the world, a move for decentralization seems to be in order.

 

[Nine_Two]

Jesus founded ONE Church. Full Stop. Period.

Variety is the spice of life, but a body divided is a corpse.

Jesus founded the Church in Jerusalem. Why do you belong to the one founded by St. Peter?

 

[Nine_Two]

You misread him. He was referring to his desire for the Return of uniates to Orthodox mother churches.

Actually, all of the ‘child’ churches blended together Into a unified liturgy and united as The Catholic Church, and, then, historically, with the fall of Rome, popes increadingly had to rule the domain so its people wouldn’t be raped and sacked and murdered by a multitude of Germanic tribes. True enough that there many abuses of power and responsibility that have occurred, and that applies to the East too, but there is also truth that the centralization was quite necessary at the time but today when we have 1.2 billion Catholics around the world, a move for decentralization seems to be in order.

If that’s what he means my apologies. Although I imagine reuniting an Eastern Catholic Church and an Orthodox Church might have issues as well, a bit like when Eastern Germany united with Western Germany (but without the economic issues).

I agree that centralization can, and at times has, been necessary. I’m not convinced it was ever necessary to the degree Rome did it, but even the East was quite centralized for a while with only two real autocephalous churches at one point (Constantinople and Moscow).
The problem with centralization is that those who get the powers never want to give them up.
In the case of centralization in the Orthodox Church, because canon law is such, those who had given up powers were able to reclaim them with relative ease as soon as Christians were able to assert themselves. In the East I don’t think that is necessarily the case.

 

[L_Marshall]

Rome is not the Mother. If there is a Mother it is Jerusalem, the Church from which all other Churches sprang. Rome had child churches, but she ate them (Celtic Church, Anglo-Church, Gallic Church, Spanish Church, etc).

It is important to recognize that Rome did not “eat” the smaller, regional child churches. When the Roman Missal was implemented, older Rites were still allowed. Unfortunately, most Christians abandoned the older Rites in favor of the Missale Romanum.

You can still find some support for the older Rites in their places of origin. For instance: the Mozarabic Rite is still practiced in a few places in Spain.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The YouTube video is very accurate…the modern Roman liturgy if a big mess…and I believe tasty the Orthodox can help in the Latin church
Getting her act together liturgicly.

Sorry Uncle Bill but what you assert is not true. I am a Lutheran who occasionally worships with Roman Catholics. Believe me, the Mass in that video is an aberration.